IronfighterXXX
Work Hard - Play Hard
True.
Although I appreciate your work with video it really hard to say it's average start, so unfortunately OP can still claim that sub 110T education is impossible on average map.
Quick Science Victory
- Thread starter pwsiegel
- Start date
True.
Although I appreciate your work with video it really hard to say it's average start, so unfortunately OP can still claim that sub 110T education is impossible on average map.
Acken
Deity
No it's not average I say it at some point but OP said he tried on salt map so...
On a side note, testing it on emperor with similar start I got a T95 Education but also had Hanging gardens and Chichen Itza and Oracle ready for renaissance...
On a side note, testing it on emperor with similar start I got a T95 Education but also had Hanging gardens and Chichen Itza and Oracle ready for renaissance...
phillipwyllie
Wannabe Deity
Were you able to buy your universities in your Emperor game?
Acken
Deity
Just 1
phillipwyllie
Wannabe Deity
A potential 4 rushed universities on Deity v's 1 rushed university on Emperor. I think my point earlier about ramping up the difficulty in regards to SV seems valid
did you continue your Deity game? I would've been interesting to see if Ashurbanipal took out Pacal, and whether you got to Plastics very early.
Acken
Deity
No I didn't continue. Although the major problem with gold on the emperor map was that I had no horse, no iron and no friend.
IronfighterXXX
Work Hard - Play Hard
On Deity as well it could be also only one, so I think that without good, deep testing (what I think is unlikely on current stage of game) the best consensus is that it's not possible to make a generalization.
BruinBound
Warlord
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2015
- Messages
- 161
I think he can just check out a normal LP and should be able to follow along. I'll recommend my own Celt series LP. I would say the map is average (by real standards, playing first game every time). I still get education on turn 114 with 4 cities. It's deity, but I'm pretty sure I use my early caravans for food and not science so the deity advantage shouldn't mean much. The game drags on a bit and I try out not doing RA's so the overall finish time isn't great, but early game should be a decent example on a non-OP civ/start/ etc.
Celt's Part 3 - Education T114
Celt's Part 3 - Education T114
So, I just rolled the first start I got with Babylon. Turn 111 Education on Emperor.
Probably the main difference between Emperor and Deity is that City-States and Civs start producing workers much early in Deity. And yes, worker stealing is a major time changer.
Anyway, I found a culture ruin, so I went scout scout settler settler. If I didn't find the culture ruin I would've gone scout monument.
Hard built one worker and stole 3. Tried to steal a worker from Japan, but the scout got killed. Should have tried with the warrior maybe. Anyway, in no way optimal play and I'm really no expert.
I have the Oracle ready to for Rationalism when I hit Renaissance, and building two more wonders, which by doing a little of wonder spotting no one else is building.
Low gold because I bribed Attila to attack Dido, just in case.
Some screenshots are attached.
Probably the main difference between Emperor and Deity is that City-States and Civs start producing workers much early in Deity. And yes, worker stealing is a major time changer.
Anyway, I found a culture ruin, so I went scout scout settler settler. If I didn't find the culture ruin I would've gone scout monument.
Hard built one worker and stole 3. Tried to steal a worker from Japan, but the scout got killed. Should have tried with the warrior maybe. Anyway, in no way optimal play and I'm really no expert.
I have the Oracle ready to for Rationalism when I hit Renaissance, and building two more wonders, which by doing a little of wonder spotting no one else is building.
Low gold because I bribed Attila to attack Dido, just in case.
Some screenshots are attached.
Attachments
tombakerwho
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2014
- Messages
- 43
For science victories, rather than focusing on the Education turn times, I would start by focusing on population goals, as science largely comes from population. Pick a turn number that is not a full game length, and try to maximize your population by that turn. For example, try to get 20-25 citizens by turn 100, maintaining positive happiness for all but a few turns. Then step it up 25-30, 30-35, etc. Then, try to get a 10 pop capital by turn 100, a 12 pop capital, 15 pop, etc. If you hyper-focus on chasing every little beaker number too early, you may actually end up in a worse position than if you had just focused on population. For example, assigning a science or culture specialist in a city before the city can support that specialist will stunt your long-term growth. The great library might sound good, but might have to give up too much to get it, especially on higher difficulties, so you need a clear reason for building it.
Culture, gold, production, wonders, and religion can all be used to accelerate growth. Once you become good a growth, than add in additional goals for things like beakers, or rush-buying science buildings, or faith accumulation for late-game, or being ready to open Rationalism at renaissance, etc. Early education turn times will just happen once you become better at growth. Solid population growth is at the core, and these other things are additional layers that reduce win times further and further.
Another goal I go for is to settle my core cities by a specific turn number, try to lower that turn number step by step. Or alternatively, settle your pre-National College cities by a certain turn number, and then find a way to have the last settler(s) ready the moment the National College has finished. Future cities do not grow, make buildings, or build units now. Founding a city early gives it more time to grow. This is even more important on Deity, but I find that it is essential skill for nearly every victory condition. Generally speaking, a really good science player will NOT settle cities after a certain turn number, even after National College, because there is no real benefit vs. aggressively taking one, or focusing on something else. For other victory conditions like Domination, there are times when it makes sense, but there is a cutoff point for a science victory.
When I first started playing Immortal, another way I improved was by playing the exact same map save several times, up to a certain turn, just to experiment with what worked and what did not work for different maps. I think a good player learns to spot opportunities and take advantage of what each map offers to the player, rather than going into the game with a pre-determined build order. I would recommend boldly and aggressively exploiting every opportunity available, rather than following a pre-determined strategy.
Another thing I figured out was that a really skilled player will have the same capital you had on turn 150, but build it by turn 100. In other words, unless Petra is involved, there is no secret building or secret wonder in the city, the best players took advantage of everything available (city states, neighbors, diplomacy, trade routes) to build the exact same city in less turns. So, most of the time, you can't look at a snapshot of the final turn and figure out how they did it. I had to watch some of the LPs out there closely to figure it out.
I would also highly recommend NOT switching to Deity if you are not ready for it. If you always win Emperor, then try Immortal. If you always win Immortal, then try Deity. Deity is easier in BNW than pre-BNW, but starting next to certain AIs like Attila or Dido on Deity difficulty can be immensely frustrating, and will definitely interfere with your goals. You may not survive until turn 100. On Deity, the Maya might build the Oracle on turn 55
The ICL/DCL series might also be useful, especially if a more skilled player has recorded a video of the same map that you played. Figure out what they did better, what you did better, what tricks they used.
Hope that helps, and good luck on your sub-300 science victory
Culture, gold, production, wonders, and religion can all be used to accelerate growth. Once you become good a growth, than add in additional goals for things like beakers, or rush-buying science buildings, or faith accumulation for late-game, or being ready to open Rationalism at renaissance, etc. Early education turn times will just happen once you become better at growth. Solid population growth is at the core, and these other things are additional layers that reduce win times further and further.
Another goal I go for is to settle my core cities by a specific turn number, try to lower that turn number step by step. Or alternatively, settle your pre-National College cities by a certain turn number, and then find a way to have the last settler(s) ready the moment the National College has finished. Future cities do not grow, make buildings, or build units now. Founding a city early gives it more time to grow. This is even more important on Deity, but I find that it is essential skill for nearly every victory condition. Generally speaking, a really good science player will NOT settle cities after a certain turn number, even after National College, because there is no real benefit vs. aggressively taking one, or focusing on something else. For other victory conditions like Domination, there are times when it makes sense, but there is a cutoff point for a science victory.
When I first started playing Immortal, another way I improved was by playing the exact same map save several times, up to a certain turn, just to experiment with what worked and what did not work for different maps. I think a good player learns to spot opportunities and take advantage of what each map offers to the player, rather than going into the game with a pre-determined build order. I would recommend boldly and aggressively exploiting every opportunity available, rather than following a pre-determined strategy.
Another thing I figured out was that a really skilled player will have the same capital you had on turn 150, but build it by turn 100. In other words, unless Petra is involved, there is no secret building or secret wonder in the city, the best players took advantage of everything available (city states, neighbors, diplomacy, trade routes) to build the exact same city in less turns. So, most of the time, you can't look at a snapshot of the final turn and figure out how they did it. I had to watch some of the LPs out there closely to figure it out.
I would also highly recommend NOT switching to Deity if you are not ready for it. If you always win Emperor, then try Immortal. If you always win Immortal, then try Deity. Deity is easier in BNW than pre-BNW, but starting next to certain AIs like Attila or Dido on Deity difficulty can be immensely frustrating, and will definitely interfere with your goals. You may not survive until turn 100. On Deity, the Maya might build the Oracle on turn 55
The ICL/DCL series might also be useful, especially if a more skilled player has recorded a video of the same map that you played. Figure out what they did better, what you did better, what tricks they used.
Hope that helps, and good luck on your sub-300 science victory
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
Alright, since we're doing this here's a 104 Education, with a 3 city NC and Petra in capital. I also fended off an invasion, which is why the economy is a bit wonky, but markets and the 3rd caravan is soon up so no worries. I can attach a save if anyone wants, some really nasty neighbors around.
here's a 104 Education, with a 3 city NC and Petra in capital. I also fended off an invasion, which is why the economy is a bit wonky, but markets and the 3rd caravan is soon up so no worries. I can attach a save if anyone wants, some really nasty neighbors around.Attachments
Hey guys, longtime lurker, first time posting. I just wanted to say thank you so much for this thread. I don't normally watch LPs, but Acken's direct response video has upped my game a fair amount. I'm only an Emperor player, but I was still able to cut down from ~320 to ~300 just watching the early game and the different decisions made (Not being afraid of early wars, not immediately making peace with Civ states, not building workers if I can avoid it, prioritize specific tiles for food, etc). Like I said earlier, just wanted to say thank you for showing how it's done, specifically addressing the things in the post and showing how we can improve our game.
@Ironxxxfighter
I tried your sub200 save this weekend and going to use it to improve my science game. I hope you can answer some of my questions?
1. When you reached education t82, did you have the Money to buy universities in all cities and how many research agreements could you afford at that time? In this game I could only afford 3 unis, no agreements.
2. What was your population at that time (t82)? I reasched education t83 but wasnt even near your time to schools at t130. reached schools t139 (save included) but on the plusside had Money to buy all schools and 6 RA:s.
3. Do you have any tips how to calculate when to begin bulbing? As you see on my final save I was having 2 GS left crazyeye.
4. If you could provide me with your beakers and pop at t130 and 157 it would help me understand where I Went wrong aswell.
I dont have map packs disabled so that could cause problems
. And I cant upload my screenshots because the are "invalid". Photobucket wont take em either. Apparently they are created as Windows Media files. What should I do to be able to post em here?
Thank you
I tried your sub200 save this weekend and going to use it to improve my science game. I hope you can answer some of my questions?
1. When you reached education t82, did you have the Money to buy universities in all cities and how many research agreements could you afford at that time? In this game I could only afford 3 unis, no agreements.
2. What was your population at that time (t82)? I reasched education t83 but wasnt even near your time to schools at t130. reached schools t139 (save included) but on the plusside had Money to buy all schools and 6 RA:s.
3. Do you have any tips how to calculate when to begin bulbing
? As you see on my final save I was having 2 GS left crazyeye. 4. If you could provide me with your beakers and pop at t130 and 157 it would help me understand where I Went wrong aswell.
I dont have map packs disabled so that could cause problems
. And I cant upload my screenshots because the are "invalid". Photobucket wont take em either. Apparently they are created as Windows Media files. What should I do to be able to post em here?Thank you
IronfighterXXX
Work Hard - Play Hard
Unfortunately this game was over half a year ago, so I really don't remember and can't answer your questions.
However I submitted this game to HoF, so besides starting and final you should also find my saves from about 1/3 and 2/3 game - maybe this help you.
You should bulb at least eight turns after plastic, try to avoid bulbing low cost tech or more then one per turn to avoid overflow cap, but probably you already know it.
You must just calculate how many GSs you will need to finish necessary techs.
I make screenshots just by pressing F12, and then view screenshots on steam.
However I submitted this game to HoF, so besides starting and final you should also find my saves from about 1/3 and 2/3 game - maybe this help you.
You should bulb at least eight turns after plastic, try to avoid bulbing low cost tech or more then one per turn to avoid overflow cap, but probably you already know it.
You must just calculate how many GSs you will need to finish necessary techs.
I make screenshots just by pressing F12, and then view screenshots on steam.
adcarrymaokai
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2013
- Messages
- 1,616
I got t94 Education in the Brazil DCL, and I wasn't even paying attention. That's the power of salts right there.
Attachments
IronfighterXXX
Work Hard - Play Hard
Slightly off-topic:
As someone said before, maybe really better instead of saying turn 100 education say turn 100 universities,
since 80T education without gold to rush buy universities is no better than 90T education with money.
As someone said before, maybe really better instead of saying turn 100 education say turn 100 universities,
since 80T education without gold to rush buy universities is no better than 90T education with money.
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
This is true. I believe I hit a very early Education in Ethiopia DCL thanks to HG but without Unis to back it up, it wasn't really that big of a feat
Chicoutimi
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2015
- Messages
- 42
As said previously I think you might get a better result on deity, with a lucky peaceful game
The AI having lots of tech boost enables you to get tech cheaper for a good part of the game (until you take back tech lead), you can also get way more gold from them with trade deal so insta buying tech building might be easier, and you get more science from research aggreement
The AI having lots of tech boost enables you to get tech cheaper for a good part of the game (until you take back tech lead), you can also get way more gold from them with trade deal so insta buying tech building might be easier, and you get more science from research aggreement
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