The Deity Challenge Line-up #40 - Korea

That was probably the best post I've read on this forum in a year I've been a member

speaking of which, does he backstab? I mean he IS a psycho jerk and all but once you're friends with him, is he a loyal ally or what?

NiSaSh said:

I just thought you wanted to improve your finishing time.

Click to expand...

That is not an unreasonable assumption. My point in replaying was to figure why cities were so low in pop with my first SV game. Take a look. Do the expo locations look terrible to you? I did not think so at the time, of course, but they turned out to be remarkably weak.

stormtrooper412 said:

I'd also put Redentor up as useful because it speeds up chewing through the policy trees.

Click to expand...

Really? It is 10% off with less than 50 turns to go (assuming you are playing really well (so like 100 turns to go in my games)). I don't think it works out to even one more policy most games. I only build it to deny it to the AI.

nice win, once you drop below 300, it will only be better

Click to expand...

I enjoyed the map very much. Yes, I am pretty sure I could easily get this map under 300, just by skipping the wonders and focusing more on money (so to buy two SS parts at least). And have back-up AL — as consentient pointed out — I lost 4-6 turns right there.

I did chew through policies I usually would never be able to get with 4-5 cities but I think that's not only because of OCC

Click to expand...

I think your SP costs are about half at one city as compared to four. That does not translate into twice as many picks since the SP cost increase curve is dramatic, but I don’t think you need give credit to early cultural CS allies.

The thing is, I built all the late wonders because I really didn't really have anything else of the priority, I had all gold, science AND production buildings. I even rush bought a hospital

in a game like this, the Neusch is definitely a really underrated wonder, the AI never ever goes for it immediately for some reason and it gives you gold, culture and happiness, which is generally something you can never have enough.

But it's a really bad idea to compare tactics since doing OCC is an entirely different thing

stormtrooper412 said:

That was probably the best post I've read on this forum in a year I've been a member

speaking of which, does he backstab? I mean he IS a psycho jerk and all but once you're friends with him, is he a loyal ally or what?

Click to expand...

Glad I could bring a chuckle to a friendly face.

The thing is, I've come to realise that how an AI treats you has far more to do with a) how you play; and b) random chance, than it does the values at civdata.com

So even though Alexander is, on paper at least, disloyal, hostile, etc., I've always found him to be someone that likes what I'm doing. When I'm weak, it's paying him to fight my wars for me, which he does adequately. And when I'm strong, it's paying him to fight someone I think might attack my rear end (where there are just scouts in cities). When HE'S weak, which sometimes happens, I feel sad, and ALWAYS recall him to life if I can do it without threatening VC. In fact, I might make a scenario where there are 3 civs. You (as Alex), the other Alex, and Darius, who starts the game with 45 Greek cities (plus Persepolis), and the mission is total liberation domination.

T268 Cultural Victory


I'm tempted to give this another go. I did very well on building wonders, but otherwise played it kind of weird: went with 2 cities, no worker steals, never built roads, very few CS allies - just one religious ally could have helped a fair bit.
Science is low in this pic as I switched over to full production mode for International Games - which it turns out I didn't stand a chance at winning - and didn't bother switching back.

You're doing quite well to produce 50 FPT from 2 cities. Can you tell us about your religion?

Yeah that's not bad, but also not that hard to manage

I had
+4 from pantheon (Gems),
+1 from shrine,
+2 temple,
+8 Grand Temple
+16 from pair of city state friends
+10 from a planted prophet

ending screenie doesn't show it because I lost dominance on my own holy city and also lost the city states

@ST that is 41 from one city, but your next city might add as little as 3 more fpt. OTOH add in a couple of mosques, or three more gems, or one more planted GPr -- any one of those three hits 50+ fpt with two cities.

consentient said:

You're doing quite well to produce 50 FPT from 2 cities. Can you tell us about your religion?

Click to expand...

Officially, our nation was atheist
I fulfilled a religious CS barb quest early (worker and later cleared camp) and took One with Nature pantheon. However, I liked what my neighbour to the West was putting together (ended up being monastery, cathedral, and reformed sacred sites), so I planted 2 prophets and welcomed with open arms.
I had pretty recently allied a religious CS which I think is 18; about 10 turns earlier, that would mean I was ~32 FPT. So, I had some CS faith coming in early and late game, but there was a gap of ~200 turns in between that I could have improved.
Capital: shrine + temple + monastery + cathedral + 2 GP = 1 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 12 = 18
Expo: shine + temple + monastery (2 wine) + cathedral + pantheon from another religion (maybe festivals/wine one) = 1 + 2 + 4 + 1 + 2(?) = 10
That's 28. If there was something that gave my planted GP +2 then the numbers would work out.
As I said, it was a weird game. I did some things (like building cultural wonders) really well, but I was very lazy about workers and CS.

Despite sparse resources, I feel this is a very strong start, with the extras we are given. However, I have a suspicion that our opponents weren't completely random; confirm?

@Blatc that is impressive then to get 50 without the 8 from grand temple and without having control over your pantheon! Also, I don't think planted GPr get you 10 faith unless you finish Piety -- which since you didn't found I can only assume you did not bother with. So the numbers are not quite adding up for me... Planting a GPr instead of founding seems crazy to me. And then you did that a second time!

beetle said:

@ST that is 41 from one city, but your next city might add as little as 3 more fpt. OTOH add in a couple of mosques, or three more gems, or one more planted GPr -- any one of those three hits 50+ fpt with two cities.

Click to expand...

My point exactly.

If you pick New Deal in Freedom, great person tiles give you +4 to their yield, so a holy site has a base +6 and it adds up to +10 with it. As Korea, you're kind of encouraged to plant some great people

beetle said:

@Blatc that is impressive then to get 50 without the 8 from grand temple and without having control over your pantheon! Also, I don't think planted GPr get you 10 faith unless you finish Piety -- which since you didn't found I can only assume you did not bother with. So the numbers are not quite adding up for me... Planting a GPr instead of founding seems crazy to me. And then you did that a second time!

Click to expand...

Just ignore the 50 in my screenshot and think of it as ~32 FPT, as I was getting that or less for most of the game.

I somewhat controlled my pantheon, using units and great scientists to block the prophet I didn't want converting and giving access to the prophet I did want converting. It was fun at first, then annoying.

I've planted (multiple) Prophets instead of founding previously in the DCL and believe that, under the right circumstances, it is a good move. I believe my closest neighbour reformed Sacred Sites before I got my first GP, and I was playing for Cultural victory from the start (but wasn't going to open Piety). They had Monastery first, which acted as a faith pantheon in my expo. Also, as Korea, I'm getting the +2 science for each planted GP.

Better Cultural players can chime in and correct me on this. I think if it's a mistake under these circumstances it was a small mistake, certainly smaller than what I'd identify as mistakes in this game
-I didn't plant a GS (think I should have planted the first one); I saved them all for Internet (techs before Internet, I used Rationalism finisher on Internet), but waiting for Labs to have been up for 8 turns, it took me part-way to airports as well
-after initially failing to worker steal, I decided it would be a non-worker steal game and THEN was lazy and never produced a 3rd worker and THEN never bothered connecting my cities with roads
-I think a 3rd and maybe 4th city would have made sense, but was intimidated by the crazy-aggressive expansion of several AI and wary of the sparse resources

Blatc said:

Despite sparse resources, I feel this is a very strong start, with the extras we are given. However, I have a suspicion that our opponents weren't completely random; confirm?

Click to expand...

Definitely. I said that I thought it would be easy. To compensate the excellent dirt, I gave a small something to the AIs to help them cope, but it was always going to be on the easy side. I can't remember if the AI were chosen or not. Maybe I picked the ones that are usually quite capable?

-I didn't plant a GS (think I should have planted the first one); I saved them all for Internet (techs before Internet, I used Rationalism finisher on Internet), but waiting for Labs to have been up for 8 turns, it took me part-way to airports as well
-after initially failing to worker steal, I decided it would be a non-worker steal game and THEN was lazy and never produced a 3rd worker and THEN never bothered connecting my cities with roads
-I think a 3rd and maybe 4th city would have made sense, but was intimidated by the crazy-aggressive expansion of several AI and wary of the sparse resources

Click to expand...

I believe it is correct to plant 1 GS, maybe even the 2nd one as Korea, someone can probably show the math for it. Usually the 1st one is safe to plant anyway as other civs.
You're probably missing around 20 gpt by not connecting 2 cities.
I'm actually very impressed you can with with only 2 cities. I have 6 and still think I could've planted 1 more. I know that it delays SP and tech but it would've been strong for CV if I replay from my ST save just because of the number of landmarks I had.

Sclb said:

I believe it is correct to plant 1 GS, maybe even the 2nd one as Korea, someone can probably show the math for it. Usually the 1st one is safe to plant anyway as other civs.
You're probably missing around 20 gpt by not connecting 2 cities.
I'm actually very impressed you can with with only 2 cities. I have 6 and still think I could've planted 1 more. I know that it delays SP and tech but it would've been strong for CV if I replay from my ST save just because of the number of landmarks I had.

Click to expand...

I had exactly 0 landmarks

beetle said:

With proper settling, my game was so much better! First to Freedom and then thirty turns faster to VC without working any harder. Also, I picked up all the industrial era and later wonders, except Christo Rendentor. Two AI had boosters, the rest nothing.

My end game was poorly managed. By the time the SV VC screen came up, I was five techs past Particle Physics, two SP past Spaceship Procurement, and had burned two GE on Recycling Centers. I only had money to buy one SS part, and that was after selling Labs and Rocket Factories and a big loan. Korea cannot sell off science building in cap. I guess because each came with a one-time science boost?

I never did get to war on the Eastern neighbor. I thought I would have more spare turns for units. Mostly the expos went straight from Labs to Power Plants to Rocket Factories to Rocket Boosters.

As I working on the Rocket Factories, the closest psycho use a (well placed, I must confess) GG to steal my AL -- so that got him all my attention and set me back a few turns -- until I took his closest city. I had 8x Mechanized Infantry, a bazooka, and two fighters. He had GWI, arty, and cav. He was also at war with at least three other civs, so I am not sure what he was thinking!

But my main motivation for playing again was to see how much bigger my cities would be with better expo choices.

Pop in 1st game, SV T339: 26, 19, 14, 15.
Pop in 2nd game, SV T310: 33, 26, 30, 23, 5.

Click to expand...

Still very small. Capital Should always be at least 40 by turn 250. Usually 50...One city is only 5...That is pretty sad..Did you totally forget to micromanage that city?

That's absolute nonsense. Capital rarely goes over 35-40

stormtrooper412 said:

That's absolute nonsense. Capital rarely goes over 35-40

Click to expand...

It goes over 40 most often. Floating gardens+hanging cardens+temple of temis+petra=WIN WIN. And by turn 350 capital is usually 60 by turn 400 caipital should be at least 75.. However i usually win by turn 300

+couplek of nasty pantheons..10 growth and +50qrovth when at war

obviously

but that's not really "most often" it's Tradition Aztec Desert start, and I've never seen that

stormtrooper412 said:

obviously

but that's not really "most often" it's Tradition Aztec Desert start, and I've never seen that

Click to expand...

I love playing likes and sandstorms and usually with Aztecs...sometimes with Inca. I play usually only with these two + Shosone and Maya