LAKE VICTORIA versus KING SOLOMON'S MINES (as SPAIN)

Better NW for SPAIN? LAKE VICTORIA or KING SOLOMON'S MINES?

  • Total voters
    121
El Caballerion

El Caballerion

King
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Hey guys. Just restructured my previous poll so that this one reflects which of these NW is more beneficial if playing as SPAIN ONLY.

For those who may have forgotten:
• LV gives you +12 food as Spain
• KSM gives you +12 production as Spain

For a while, I was gung-ho about starting next to KSM, but have found that settling next to LV is perhaps better bc of the increased science that comes with a large capital (especially if you go down TRADITION first).

THOUGHTS?
 
KSM...
If your playing as Spain with standard everything, and Start Biased left one...you will start off on the coast, unless the RNG Gods just want to treat you like a peasant. Anyway...coast start means you can build Colossus= free trade route= food route through sea=+6food. +12 production = Hanging gardens guranteed=+6 food. Right there you cancelled out the +12 food from Lake victoria and you havent even reached the Medieval Age. And with the high production you can build everything your little autocratic heart desires and steam roll wonders, unit, and the AI.
 
KSM. Hit a flood plain desert with it, hit Great Library, enjoy every wonder in the game. Early food is a lot easier to come by than early production.
 
12 food is so broken it's not even funny. You catch up in tech much faster and that means midgame wonders (+12 production might seem big... and it is... but it is all worthless if an AI gets the wonder before you even have the tech for it)
 
I suggest we test this by making two otherwise identical saves, but the wonder next to our capital is different (LV/KSM, duh). Something like Emperor/Immortal, Pangaea, all standard settings except for the guaranteed NW. Maybe also make sure there are no other NWs close by, so that their effects will not muddle up the results (based on when/if you settle near them, etc). We play for 100 turns, or until finish; half of the people take the KSM save and half the LV save. It's probably best to make a thread about it in the Strategy forum and label it 'Spanish NW Challenge (experiment)" or somesuch, in order to catch people's attention. Will you do it El Caballerion or may I create it? We'll never get to the bottom of this issue (whether underground or under water ;)) without some empirical tests -- and regardless of the outcome, with such an op start it's bound to be a fun game, too! :D

EDIT: A win condition might be needed, too. I *suspect* LV will always win a Science game, since you don't really need wonders for science... Maybe Science or Culture, just to get some variety and see how each wonder performs with regards to either condition? You can ofc play other win conditions, but I'd encourage those two just to get enough samples. Either one alone seems too limiting, but two conditions seems just right imo.
 
Fountain of Youth, of course...
No, seriously, 12 food > 12 Hammers (because 12 food can equal Engineer Specialists or Citizens working Mines.)
 
Greizer85 said:
I suggest we test this by making two otherwise identical saves, but the wonder next to our capital is different (LV/KSM, duh). Something like Emperor/Immortal, Pangaea, all standard settings except for the guaranteed NW. Maybe also make sure there are no other NWs close by, so that their effects will not muddle up the results (based on when/if you settle near them, etc). We play for 100 turns, or until finish; half of the people take the KSM save and half the LV save. It's probably best to make a thread about it in the Strategy forum and label it 'Spanish NW Challenge (experiment)" or somesuch, in order to catch people's attention. Will you do it El Caballerion or may I create it? We'll never get to the bottom of this issue (whether underground or under water ;)) without some empirical tests -- and regardless of the outcome, with such an op start it's bound to be a fun game, too! :D

EDIT: A win condition might be needed, too. I *suspect* LV will always win a Science game, since you don't really need wonders for science... Maybe Science or Culture, just to get some variety and see how each wonder performs with regards to either condition? You can ofc play other win conditions, but I'd encourage those two just to get enough samples. Either one alone seems too limiting, but two conditions seems just right imo.
Click to expand...

Still hard to test. LV will be more beneficial in food lacking starts, where KSM would be a godsend for a jungle start.
 
Assuming a handful of hills, how long is it going to take LV to get you 12 production? Plus, the population it grows will get up the tech tree quicker to get started on the Wonders that enable even more food even faster.
 
Elz Majesto said:
KSM...
If your playing as Spain with standard everything, and Start Biased left one...you will start off on the coast, unless the RNG Gods just want to treat you like a peasant. Anyway...coast start means you can build Colossus= free trade route= food route through sea=+6food. +12 production = Hanging gardens guranteed=+6 food. Right there you cancelled out the +12 food from Lake victoria and you havent even reached the Medieval Age. And with the high production you can build everything your little autocratic heart desires and steam roll wonders, unit, and the AI.
Click to expand...

The logic works both ways.

+12 food lets you use mined hills much earlier. LV followed by 4 mined hills and you still have +4 food along with 12 production. And you get to that 5 pop far faster than you'd get to 5 pop with KSM. You'd still be able to get whatever your autocratic heart desired.
 
Ah yes, coastal or non-coastal... That is another snag. I think a coastal start is justified, given Spain's start bias.

As for jungle etc: I'd just take an average start in terms of food and production. a Wheat or two; three or four hills. I realize that all these conditions will cause the test to be less than scientific, but the main aim is to have fun anyway, and it should give us at least a hint.
 
Voted for the Lake, because more pop = more science and worked tiles = more production/gold/culture/GP generation/something else. Overall superior, at least in my eyes.

Salomon Mines are great too though, and both are beyond badass with +4 faith per NW belief (or rather... +8! Spain near a wonder = guaranteed religion, especially if it's a religious wonder)
 
I have generated the saves... I didn't explore the surroundings, but I do know that there are no Strategic resources within the visible starting area (IGE shows you that no matter if you want it or not).

The settings are Spain (duh), Immortal, Standard Size, Standard speed, 8 players, medium sea level etc.

So far LV is clearly leading in the poll. I'm anxious to settle this, but let's wait for some more discussion before making the thread. I may well have discounted some crucial parameter(s).

Spoiler :


EDIT: Too much food maybe..? Should I delete one of the Wheats? I only play abundant starts usually so I'm a poor judge of what's an 'average' amount of food (sans the lake ofc). Feel free to chime in here folks.
 
It's a no-brainer.
If it's your starting location, LV totally outweighs KSM. A few quick pop-ups sets you miles ahead of everyone else. 10-pop city is much more useful that 5-pop one, even with high production.

If it's your 4th or later city, I'd go for KSM. You can always feed your new settlement with trade routes and if you do not have plenty of gold, KSM will set you up with proper infrastructure in no time.
 
Greizer85 said:
I have generated the saves...

The settings are Spain (duh), Immortal, Standard Size, Standard speed, 8 players, medium sea level etc.
Click to expand...

Any chance I could coax you into posting those saves?
 
comatosedragon said:
Any chance I could coax you into posting those saves?
Click to expand...
No need to coax me, I will make the thread in the Strategy Forum soon enough. ;) If you cannot wait, you can always make a similar save with the Ingame Editor Mod; I often use it to cook starts to my advantage, as I cannot stand to play bad starts in Civ.

@Makavcio (and others favoring LV): It's not as clear-cut as that. For Science victory it might be; but it takes time to develop mines, whereas KSM gives 12 production right off the bat, assuring you any early wonder(s). It's a pity that it doesn't give any food, but you will be able to work it as the third square at a minimum. I do think that LV might come out ahead, but it'll be fun to test this. I will make the thread sometime later today if there are no further suggestions/adjustments.
 
I looked at this thread before i started playing - then I started a game with Spain. Was able to find The Great Barrier Reef and Old Faithful first. Since reef is 2 tiles, I get 500g for each one... 1500g by turn 30. Spain can be so ridiculously broken, or suck...

Found a city by the reefs, But the tile yields are INSANE. 4 food, 2 production, 2 gold, 4 science... x2, so thats 8 food, 4 production, 4 gold, 8 science. I think that may stronger than either Lake Victoria or KSM... Not to mention finding the Reef first will get you 1k, not just 500. Grab the faith pantheon and you have +16 faith per turn...
 
Which wonder is best for Spain overall is a question for another thread... I've hardly played Spain at all so I can't say; I think it might be the Fountain of Youth though. Invincible army and +20(!) happiness... Just spam 10 cities and go to town with your massive troops. The Reef is another candidate, as are LV and KSM. Anyway for this thread the question is KSM vs LV.
 
Really, you get +20 happiness as Spain from the Fountain of Youth?? I thought the Spanish bonus only applies to tile yield.
 
Spain's UA explicitly gets double happiness from Natural Wonders ("Culture, Happiness and tile yields" from NWs are doubled), so Spain gets +20 :c5happy: from just having FoY in its culture borders. Shows up in the happiness "from discovery of Natural Wonders" when you mouse hover over the Happiness icon at the top of the screen.
 
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