SGOTM 09 - Murky Waters

Nice play, LC :goodjob:

Regarding REX: the challenge is not to churn out as many settler-worker pairs as possible, the challenge is to pay the maintenance until the cities contribute to our economy, and still run a reasonable research. In this viewpoint, an academy will enable us to run at ~30% lower research rate, and bureaucracy gives another ~20% cut i.e. we can run at 40% research and still progress as if running 90% without academy+bureaucracy.

Which means that going the AH-writing path to get an early library/academy, and then go wheel/masonry/myst/med/ph => CoL/math will enable us to settle perhaps another ~nine cities instead of ~six.

We can hand build the Oracle in the second city with marble (15 turns), while the capital builds settlers.
In general, this sounds like a good plan. I think we want to sequence the library build right after a settler build, so we can get 2 cities producing simultaneously. In my previous testing, writing came too soon. I haven't tested again, but my guess is that Wheel-pottery-wtg is timed better. This would also give us a road to settle the 2nd town a turn sooner. Or maybe someone has an even better sequence. I do think it's silly to not get the Academy asap, though.
 
In my tests, writing comes exactly on time :D

After initial worker => warrior until pop2, then second worker, then complete warrior, then build library (complete at pop6).

This delays the settler, but it's a waste to settle city #2 without an accompanying worker. Our capital needs two workers to keep up with the quick growth to pop6. Then one is enough to build reserves and enable one extra pop every 7 turns (which matches settler + worker + warrior).

Growing one pop in capital is much more efficient than growing one pop in auxiliary city due to the library/academy, and later bureaucracy. For example: a forest preserve in capital on river generates 3 :commerce: => 5.25 :science:, and after B, it's 4.5 :commerce: => ~8 :science:
 
In my tests, writing comes exactly on time :D

After initial worker => warrior until pop2, then second worker, then complete warrior, then build library (complete at pop6).

This delays the settler, but it's a waste to settle city #2 without an accompanying worker. Our capital needs two workers to keep up with the quick growth to pop6. Then one is enough to build reserves and enable one extra pop every 7 turns (which matches settler + worker + warrior).

Growing one pop in capital is much more efficient than growing one pop in auxiliary city due to the library/academy, and later bureaucracy. For example: a forest preserve in capital on river generates 3 :commerce: => 5.25 :science:, and after B, it's 4.5 :commerce: => ~8 :science:
This is what I was doing also. Best would be to compare this strategy with klarius' early-settler strategy. It's not just beakers, though. The second city builds a wb, worker or settler too. And we don't need another worker if the second city shares the corn, for example. In short, how soon do we want to create a wkr/settler pump outside our capital?
 
There are good reasons to build cities w/o having workers for them. A city in the north can build a wb and share a corn. It can then go into worker production itself.
Another city we should consider early is somewhere in the south opposing the barb city. We need to overcome their culture to be able to go there before astronomy :eek:. That takes quite some time.
A city down there can be connected by culture via coast w/o sailing.
 
Another city we should consider early is somewhere in the south opposing the barb city. We need to overcome their culture to be able to go there before astronomy :eek:.
Right. I'm concerned about settling down there asap to block AI city-creep also. Obviously, if we settle East Mountain 1S or 2S, then 5:culture: is enough to access the barb city from 2NW of his capital, but those sites might be non-optimal. Anyway, we'll soon see what that situation is all about.

klarius, have you tried any variants yet? It's striking me more and more that early Oracle is a somewhat significant detour from good REX. We need to reveal horses and copper asap. We need roads asap, and for all those techs, we might as well get our academy asap. For Oracle, it'd probably be dumb to not research Masonry (or would it, since that marble city looks pathetic if there isn't a horse nearby and/or more food in the alternative FC). So when do we squeeze in myst...phood?

What are your preliminary thoughts on our next tech? Have you explored The Wheel next at all? Or have you ruled that out?
 
klarius, have you tried any variants yet? It's striking me more and more that early Oracle is a somewhat significant detour from good REX. We need to reveal horses and copper asap. We need roads asap, and for all those techs, we might as well get our academy asap. For Oracle, it'd probably be dumb to not research Masonry (or would it, since that marble city looks pathetic if there isn't a horse nearby and/or more food in the alternative FC). So when do we squeeze in myst...phood?
I tried settler-complete warrior-worker-library with TW-pot-writing- .. -PH (AH not really needed early). Marble is not really useful for Oracle, IMO. I risked then to build Oracle late in the capital w/o chopping. Maybe 2nd worker first would come out ahead overall.
 
Feedback is dragging, so I updated the PPP and will play on tomorrow morning if no one objects or discussion doesn't raise doubts about the PPP.
 
What are your preliminary thoughts on our next tech? Have you explored The Wheel next at all? Or have you ruled that out?

Here's my point of view:
Which techs are we likely to use? What do you want the workers to do?
In my tests, I first farm the two corns, and then put windmills on the two nearby hills.
After that what? Are we going to build any roads or cottages in the next ~30 turns? I doubt the capital would benefit much from an early granary, since already it can grow faster than the happy cap can keep up.
This is why I would question immediate TW-Pottery.

So what are the other options?
AH-Writing. This will reveal horses, let us build pastures for livestock, and let us build a Library. Do we want to build the Library straight away after Writing is done? I'm not sure. I think I prefer an extra worker/settler before the Library, but that is just my gut feeling. We certainly don't want to delay it too long, because it is so cheap.
Mining-BW. This allows us to mine hills (I don't think we will unless there's a resource), reveals copper, and lets us chop forests. We need this to cottage the riverside tiles, and the extra production from chopping allows faster ReX.
Myst-Medi-Phood. Allows the Oracle. This doesn't have much else going for it, so we should definitely take at least one of the other paths first.
edit:
TW without Pottery. Allows the building of roads. How much this is worth is unclear.


Also, I've had an idea about our (supposed) neighbour. Could it be Hammurabi? He starts with The Wheel and Agriculture, and his UU (the bowman) is a good anti-rush unit, with +50% against melee.
 
ZPV, this is a good summary. I would add a couple points.

Yes, I would build one road before the two windmills, or before the settler is done anyway. Gets us the city 60 years sooner, no matter where we put it. If it's going to be south, then several roads before the settler's built preferably (building the second wkr first).

One option you didn't consider is TW and then whatever other than Pottery. If we're focusing on REX, then the workers should never move to a tile that needs a road without also roading it. If we need resources improved sooner, we do that by building more workers, not by forest-hopping without making roads.

Imo, chopping is insignificant for REX. 13h is less than 1 turn building a settler or worker. Better to chop after math, except where we're building cottages. There are already two cottages we can build and I would asap, but not before the 3 windmills, true.

I'm hoping by the time the first worker is done we'll know whether we want our next city by the fish or south of the mountains. If it's the fish, we don't need another worker. If it's down south, another worker with some roads probably gets the city done about as fast as building the settler next.
 
What a road addict! :p

I prefer AH-Writing path.

After corns, let's work the eastern hill first.
 
Could the REXmaniacs please educate me how you are going to finance your REX, if not going the academy/CS path?

Could the REXooligans also indicate a rough build order in the capital? I guess a settler + one more worker, but then?

Could the REXanatics inform me how many cities you plan to found before Oxford?
 
I opened that last spoiler expecting some serious discussion.:blush::eek::lol::hammer2::wallbash:

Instead there are pictures! How could you possibly expect us to deduce that from "graphic content"? :rolleyes:
 
...The second city builds a wb, worker or settler too. And we don't need another worker if the second city shares the corn, for example. In short, how soon do we want to create a wkr/settler pump outside our capital?

wb is fine. Share the corn to build a worker seems a bit weird, when we could work that corn with capital and build the worker :confused: No real gain, is there?

There are good reasons to build cities w/o having workers for them. A city in the north can build a wb and share a corn. It can then go into worker production itself.
Another city we should consider early is somewhere in the south opposing the barb city. We need to overcome their culture to be able to go there before astronomy :eek:. That takes quite some time.
A city down there can be connected by culture via coast w/o sailing.

Yes, a northern city is fine without a worker to build a workboat. A new city contribute to the empire (3-4 work/hammers), so I agree with an early city. But if we settle somewhere else, I think it's better to build a worker first, and then a settler...

... It's striking me more and more that early Oracle is a somewhat significant detour from good REX. We need to reveal horses and copper asap. We need roads asap, and for all those techs, we might as well get our academy asap. For Oracle, it'd probably be dumb to not research Masonry (or would it, since that marble city looks pathetic if there isn't a horse nearby and/or more food in the alternative FC). So when do we squeeze in myst...phood?

What are your preliminary thoughts on our next tech? Have you explored The Wheel next at all? Or have you ruled that out?

What do you consider as early Oracle? I think we should target latest 1300 BC and go for CS. Then we have time for both one settler, a bunch of workers, a library + academy. I don't think we have time for mining/BW though. I think we can squeeze in The Wheel, since roads will be extremely important in this game, and we better get a couple of these in place quickly to really have full use.

I tried settler-complete warrior-worker-library with TW-pot-writing- .. -PH (AH not really needed early). Marble is not really useful for Oracle, IMO. I risked then to build Oracle late in the capital w/o chopping. Maybe 2nd worker first would come out ahead overall.

What is late Oracle? After 1300 BC?

Here's my point of view:
Which techs are we likely to use? What do you want the workers to do?
In my tests, I first farm the two corns, and then put windmills on the two nearby hills.
After that what? Are we going to build any roads or cottages in the next ~30 turns? I doubt the capital would benefit much from an early granary, since already it can grow faster than the happy cap can keep up.
This is why I would question immediate TW-Pottery.

So what are the other options?
AH-Writing. This will reveal horses, let us build pastures for livestock, and let us build a Library. Do we want to build the Library straight away after Writing is done? I'm not sure. I think I prefer an extra worker/settler before the Library, but that is just my gut feeling. We certainly don't want to delay it too long, because it is so cheap.
...
TW without Pottery. Allows the building of roads. How much this is worth is unclear.

I built preserves in my test games. Early granary is not needed IMO. TW-AH-Writing could be an clever move.

...Imo, chopping is insignificant for REX. 13h is less than 1 turn building a settler or worker. Better to chop after math, except where we're building cottages. There are already two cottages we can build and I would asap, but not before the 3 windmills, true.

I'm hoping by the time the first worker is done we'll know whether we want our next city by the fish or south of the mountains. If it's the fish, we don't need another worker. If it's down south, another worker with some roads probably gets the city done about as fast as building the settler next.

I don't see why we need early cottages. Preserves are significantly better (build preserves on river, and chop/cottage non-rivers first).

LC - I didn't know you have three feet! :lol:
 
Feedback is dragging, so I updated the PPP and will play on tomorrow morning if no one objects or discussion doesn't raise doubts about the PPP.

I'm fine with warrior until pop2 and The Wheel. I'm not sure if Pottery is better than AH, and I don't know if settler is better than worker. Perhaps we know more once the south is revealed?
 
I think we should target latest 1300 BC and go for CS. Then we have time for both one settler, a bunch of workers, a library + academy.
Have you tested this? I'm very interested if it's possible the way you describe it. The hard part is getting both Math and CoL by then, in my experience. along with all you're describing.

All three are right too. Did you notice? :crazyeye:
 
ZPV, this is a good summary. I would add a couple points.

1. Yes, I would build one road before the two windmills, or before the settler is done anyway. Gets us the city 60 years sooner, no matter where we put it. If it's going to be south, then several roads before the settler's built preferably (building the second wkr first).

2. One option you didn't consider is TW and then whatever other than Pottery. If we're focusing on REX, then the workers should never move to a tile that needs a road without also roading it. If we need resources improved sooner, we do that by building more workers, not by forest-hopping without making roads.

3. Imo, chopping is insignificant for REX. 13h is less than 1 turn building a settler or worker. Better to chop after math, except where we're building cottages. There are already two cottages we can build and I would asap, but not before the 3 windmills, true.

2. I hadn't considered that, mainly because road building is deprioritized in my games. I've added it to my list above. I don't know how much roads are really worth, so as a working estimate, I'm guessing: a bit less than chopping, but TW is a lot cheaper than Mining+BW.
3. I hadn't intended to say that chopping speeds up ReX by a huge amount, just that it will save a couple of turns on the second or third settler. Certainly we should wait for Maths for most chopping.
edit: While running scientists for Academy, chops save more than one turn.
1. Given all of this, I guess a road pays at least for the worker turns. Is it worth the extra pre-Library research? I don't know. If we would delay library a few turns after AH-Writing anyway, then there is no loss here.

edit: are you saying you have three right feet, then? :lol:
 
I don't see why we need early cottages. Preserves are significantly better (build preserves on river, and chop/cottage non-rivers first).
I don't know how much roads are really worth, so as a working estimate, I'm guessing: a bit less than chopping, but TW is a lot cheaper than Mining+BW.
Respond to both of you at once. What we have is a fairly complicated optimization problem. In terms of worker turns, though, I see preserves as almost a complete waste of wkr-turns under a REX strategy, because we would prefer to have all cottages. They're worth twice as much at the time we need them most. Preserves are like an upside-down funnel. Each new one contributes progressively less, percentage-wise, to your overall beaker count. Same with cottages except that cottages keep on growing, so it's much slower. The need for happiness is also short-term and we only need it after we stop using our capital as a settler/wkr pump. So, viewing this as a REXomaniac, I'm thinking build/capture 12-18 cities by Oxford and have about 100 cottages (or whatever).

As for chops, as Obormot said in SG2, chops don't count because we're going to chop them sooner or later anyway, so again, I view them as a waste of wkr-turns in the early going. Roads and long-term improvements, on the other hand are useful game-long. On Quick, roads are outrageously useful. Instead of the CS-sling by 1360BC and no roads, we can have 10 roads and preparing to capture the barb city and maybe our neighbors, for example (who knows?).

I'm not wedded to the REX strategy. It was ZPV's idea originally, which I took seriously, and then followed up by klarius. It makes sense to me, because it is hard to REX starting in 1360, even with a pop9 powerhouse bureau capital. But it's not impossible and we can go that route too.
 
GloryDreck:vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit:

Looking at the cards Gyathaar has dealt us, it's dismal. Here's what we see:
Spoiler :
Code:
       Vis.  Fog     Resources
       ---   ---     ---------
grass   26   + 5     food  5 
plains  26   +15     strat 2
tundra  14   + 4     happy 1
ice     15   + 1
-----   --   ---
Total   81   +25

coast   22   + 2
ocean    9       
ice      9   +12
-----   --   ---
Total   40   +14

West is a total bust
SW is a near bust
South and east look potential
SE is Gilligan's Isle

31 grass out of 106 land tiles. [B][COLOR="Red"]Only 10 grass tiles outside Murky's FC!!![/COLOR][/B] 

How do you spell diddly squat?
So the reality is we have the slow movement of Quick speed and nothing good close to us. Earlier klarius said:
The winning team will be the one that can generate the most beakers from T100+ for the final push.
I submit that the team that moves its units the fastest will generate the most beakers from T100+.

We have the following options to speed up our movement.
By land:
1. build roads
2. research engineering

By sea:
3. circumnavigate with airships and open borders (probably can)
4. galleons
5. transports​
How do we adjust our basic strategy to this reality?

0. Don't REX, do CS-Sling, and move capital asap?
1. BUild roads, REX and plan for FP asap?
2. Sailing asap, build roads and REX east and south?
3. Build an airship asap, research writing, circumnavigate, research sailing and move 3 tiles per turn (tpt) instead of 2tpt that land units with roads go and go on the warpath?
4. Beeline paratroopers?
5. REX coastal cities and build GLight?
6. ???
7. Build 1000 roads-to-nowhere and blame it all on jesusin? (joke)
 
Feedback is dragging, so I updated the PPP and will play on tomorrow morning if no one objects or discussion doesn't raise doubts about the PPP.

I'm fine with warrior until pop2 and The Wheel. I'm not sure if Pottery is better than AH, and I don't know if settler is better than worker. Perhaps we know more once the south is revealed?

I'm still fine with warrior until pop2 and The Wheel. Stop once tiles south of mountains are revealed OR pop2 OR The Wheel is complete.

jesusin has another view. What does the rest of the team think? Please provide clear and concise comments on the next ~five turns today so that we can advance, else it's up to LC to decide.
 
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