Mitchum
Deity
We need the GS to bulb Math for the Construction sling... unless you plan to self-research it. The beauty of bulbing Math is that it lets us research a bunch of other techs we need.
SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
magnusmarcus
Prince
theres no reason not to keep going for the GS its just that the oracle gets chopped before math to finish a turn before
Mitchum
Deity
If we don't know Math when the Oracle is completed, we can't pick Construction as our free tech. Maybe I'm missing something with the timing of your plan.
magnusmarcus
Prince
o gotcha Forgot we were going for construction for free... thought mabey we were grabing COL
Mitchum
Deity
Yes, there is a lot of discussion and a lot of moving parts. It's hard to keep it all straight.
magnusmarcus
Prince
We can get construction a turn earlier but it involves delaying a settler and building the oracle in zlatoro. Also ended up researching math not bulbing it. (GS) in 5 turns later or GP in 6
No roads but worker in Gold-E Locks can chop for catas instead of oracle
Not sure how you all would feel about delaying settlers
No roads but worker in Gold-E Locks can chop for catas instead of oracle
Not sure how you all would feel about delaying settlers
Mitchum
Deity
Good work. Everything is a tradeoff in this game. We're trying to balance REX (Rapid EXpansion), research, city infrastructure, land improvements, etc. It's a tough balancing act. The more options we have the better. Upload the save so we can check it out.
LowtherCastle
Deity
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Researching BW a turn slower turns out to be a major PITA. So far, everything I've tried is either 1 wkr-t short or 2h short. 
magnusmarcus
Prince
LowtherCastle
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Excellent test, magnus! I've been curious about researching math by hand. One comment: Generally we try to avoid chopping deer or fur tiles because we can camp them without losing the hammer for the rest of the game.
It's great that you're getting the testing fever. That will make your turnset 1000X easier.
It's great that you're getting the testing fever. That will make your turnset 1000X easier.
magnusmarcus
Prince
That probably wont be a problem. (Verified it isnt. I did another test without chopping the deer tile)
LowtherCastle
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Okay, I finally figured out how to mine the copper and still get the Oracle on T64, including pasturing Mitch's piglets and all. It turns out the trade-offs almost equalize both variants, but not quite. Here's a breakdown on T64, and played out to a balance point on T70.
So Delhi is +6f, a 30h chop, and four worker-turns ahead, but is missing the road at Gems-SE, which I consider of less value than the +2 worker-turns, because we don't need that road right now. Instead, a worker can chop the Gems granary sooner, probably yielding some food.
Code:
T64 w/copper w/o copper T70 w/copper w/o copper
--- --------- --------- --- --------- ---------
Delhi 8/26f 10/26 15/30f 9/30
gran 12/60h 12/60 done done
rax 12/50h 12/50 35/50h 34/50
4chops 5chops 5chops 6chops
26gold ~26gold 196gold 199goldLowtherCastle
Deity
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Man, I can't wait to read the Kakumeika thread. They have 119 attachments already! 
LowtherCastle
Deity
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Here's a quick summary of the changes I made to mine the copper first:
1. The two eastern workers immediately mine the copper, one finishing the gold mine first.
2. Both go 1N and chop/CANCEL LAST MISSION (Careful! When two chop the same tile, one will NOT automatically stop the chop on the last turn!!!)
3. Both go 1NE and chop/CANCEL LAST MISSION.
4. One goes 1N and chops to completion. The other completes the chop in place.
5. The free worker goes back to 1SW and completes that chop, then goes STRAIGHT to the piglets.
6. The other one goes straight to the deer tile when he's done chopping. He then connects Delhi and Gold-E Locks along with the new worker from Gold-E Locks, as per my original plan, and so forth, connecting the marble and pre-chopping Gold-E Locks before T64.
7. The Zlatorog worker completes the SH chops then goes to Gems City-1NE and completes that chop BEFORE we settle Gems City, so the 16 hammers go to Delhi (CRUCIAL!).
8. That worker then helps pasture the pigs, then both mine the gems, then both go straight to quarry the marble.
9. Delhi MM. Delhi works the copper mine asap, of course. When the settler is done, it builds the library in 2t at +7fpt.
10. When the library is done, Delhi builds the next settler for three straight turns working 2 sci and max hammers, then revolts to slavery and 2poprushes the settler, bringing Delhi down to pop2.
11. When the settler is done, Delhi works 1 sci for one turn while growing back to pop3. At pop3, Delhi hires both scientists again, so the GS will spawn on T64.
12. Otherwise, everything is basically the same. Gems City MM is slightly different. I worked the gems mine when it was done for a couple of turns, until the pigs could grow Gems to pop2 in 1 turn.
1. The two eastern workers immediately mine the copper, one finishing the gold mine first.
2. Both go 1N and chop/CANCEL LAST MISSION (Careful! When two chop the same tile, one will NOT automatically stop the chop on the last turn!!!)
3. Both go 1NE and chop/CANCEL LAST MISSION.
4. One goes 1N and chops to completion. The other completes the chop in place.
5. The free worker goes back to 1SW and completes that chop, then goes STRAIGHT to the piglets.
6. The other one goes straight to the deer tile when he's done chopping. He then connects Delhi and Gold-E Locks along with the new worker from Gold-E Locks, as per my original plan, and so forth, connecting the marble and pre-chopping Gold-E Locks before T64.
7. The Zlatorog worker completes the SH chops then goes to Gems City-1NE and completes that chop BEFORE we settle Gems City, so the 16 hammers go to Delhi (CRUCIAL!).
8. That worker then helps pasture the pigs, then both mine the gems, then both go straight to quarry the marble.
9. Delhi MM. Delhi works the copper mine asap, of course. When the settler is done, it builds the library in 2t at +7fpt.
10. When the library is done, Delhi builds the next settler for three straight turns working 2 sci and max hammers, then revolts to slavery and 2poprushes the settler, bringing Delhi down to pop2.
11. When the settler is done, Delhi works 1 sci for one turn while growing back to pop3. At pop3, Delhi hires both scientists again, so the GS will spawn on T64.
12. Otherwise, everything is basically the same. Gems City MM is slightly different. I worked the gems mine when it was done for a couple of turns, until the pigs could grow Gems to pop2 in 1 turn.
Mitchum
Deity
Nice work, magnusmarcus! I took a look at your save. You do, in fact get the Oracle a turn sooner than LC's test, which is saying something. 
As I said before, Civ is a balancing act. What you had to give up to get the Oracle a turn sooner includes:
- 1 less city
- more chops since the Oracle was built sans marble
- The Wheel, Pottery, Fishing, Hunting and part of Iron Working (because you had to self-research Math instead)
- No Oracle in Gold-E-Locks to put cultural pressure on Toku
What you gained:
- Oracle one turn sooner
- A GS to do with what we want
- Both SH and the Oracle in the same city to consolidate our GPro GPP
On the balance, I think I prefer LCs test because we are better positioned to get granaries, which will accelerate our growth and make our whips more efficient. We also already have many additional techs and an extra city, which will put us in a better position to start exploiting our cats that much sooner.
@ magnusmarcus, I think you're up next. Do you have enough information from LC to put together a plan for the next 10ish turns?
As I said before, Civ is a balancing act. What you had to give up to get the Oracle a turn sooner includes:
- 1 less city
- more chops since the Oracle was built sans marble
- The Wheel, Pottery, Fishing, Hunting and part of Iron Working (because you had to self-research Math instead)
- No Oracle in Gold-E-Locks to put cultural pressure on Toku
What you gained:
- Oracle one turn sooner
- A GS to do with what we want
- Both SH and the Oracle in the same city to consolidate our GPro GPP
On the balance, I think I prefer LCs test because we are better positioned to get granaries, which will accelerate our growth and make our whips more efficient. We also already have many additional techs and an extra city, which will put us in a better position to start exploiting our cats that much sooner.
@ magnusmarcus, I think you're up next. Do you have enough information from LC to put together a plan for the next 10ish turns?
LowtherCastle
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Excellent!
When I'm testing, I set goals, like you did, such as getting the Oracle a turn faster. WHen I can't seem to find a solution, but I think there might be one, I keep in mind all the different variables I can work with, such as where the hammers might come from (whipping, chopping, growing the city), and how many worker-turns I have.
One thing I've discovered over the years is that I can often do more and achieve the same goal. FOr example, by researching an extra tech, namely Bronze Working, I can get more beakers by building more cities, so that in the end, I have accomplished the same goal but my empire is that much more advanced. Bronze Working is one of the most valuable early techs for that purpose, enabling chopping, whipping, and sometimes revealing copper.
In this scenario, we researched AH, which gave us almost nothing (a sheep pasture). Then we decided to research Masonry, which again, gives us almost nothing right now, just SH twice cheaper. Hmmm...I think to myself. My tests showed that BW-Writing was much faster for research because we could quickly whip libraries and work 2sci and our tech pace would skyrocket. How can we get more out of Masonry, since we want SH?
So we partially build SH in Delhi for 60g in failed gold (that is, hammers in the Delhi SH build that get converted to gold when SH is completed elsewhere, even our own Zlatorog
). This extra gold will allow us to research The Wheel and Priesthood very quickly even though we now have higher maintenance costs from Gems City. Bingo! Now we have leveraged Masonry!We've built 4 cities while still teching very fast. Our workers quickly chop a settler and a library, then are able to road because we get The Wheel quickly. Then, just in time, we complete Priesthood so that Gold-E Locks can start building the Oracle when it finishes that worker.
Now, even if we get beaten to the Oracle, which frankly wouldn't surprise me, we have a strong and growing empire that can whip out libraries if we need to research Construction by hand.
---------------
All that synergy comes from setting goals and testing to achieve them, just like you did yesterday and today. Each time I test, I run into some barrier and try to solve it. Often it's possible. Of course, eventually there are limits. We try to push the envelope right up against those limits.
magnusmarcus
Prince
Nice work, magnusmarcus! I took a look at your save. You do, in fact get the Oracle a turn sooner than LC's test, which is saying something.
As I said before, Civ is a balancing act. What you had to give up to get the Oracle a turn sooner includes:
- 1 less city
- more chops since the Oracle was built sans marble
- The Wheel, Pottery, Fishing, Hunting and part of Iron Working (because you had to self-research Math instead)
- No Oracle in Gold-E-Locks to put cultural pressure on Toku
What you gained:
- Oracle one turn sooner
- A GS to do with what we want
- Both SH and the Oracle in the same city to consolidate our GPro GPP
On the balance, I think I prefer LCs test because we are better positioned to get granaries, which will accelerate our growth and make our whips more efficient. We also already have many additional techs and an extra city, which will put us in a better position to start exploiting our cats that much sooner.
@ magnusmarcus, I think you're up next. Do you have enough information from LC to put together a plan for the next 10ish turns?
I think beestar is up next
(ya I know I had to sacrifice alot to get it a turn sooner and I am not advocating my test) I am curious tho if we could build oracle in Zlato to stack GPs
Mitchum
Deity
@LC
I'm glad to see that you pastured my piggies first! I'm pretty sure that the analysis in Gold-E-Locks regarding sheep before gold applies to Gems City as well. However, did you work the gems mine rather than sticking to the pig pasture due to needing a tech at a critical time? I would have thought that sticking to the pig pasture (which I assume was done before the gems mine) until 2 pops would put you ahead in the long run. The sooner and faster the city grows the sooner we can start whipping stuff...
I'm glad to see that you pastured my piggies first! I'm pretty sure that the analysis in Gold-E-Locks regarding sheep before gold applies to Gems City as well. However, did you work the gems mine rather than sticking to the pig pasture due to needing a tech at a critical time? I would have thought that sticking to the pig pasture (which I assume was done before the gems mine) until 2 pops would put you ahead in the long run. The sooner and faster the city grows the sooner we can start whipping stuff...
LowtherCastle
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Actually, beestar's on deck right now, but I would like to see ZPV play through to the completion (or failure) of SH.
xpost
LowtherCastle
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I'll leave the calcs up to you. What I'm talking about is working the gems mine for 2 turns, then growing to pop2 by working the pigs for 1t. The alternative is working the pigs for 2 more turns and then both.
