Unit Design

Executioners are the pikemen UU replacement (ie tier3 melee) for dark elves. I don't see why/how they should be tied to the slavery civic?

Lets continue the slavery discussion from post 61 however, we didn't seem to have a consensus design yet.

I like the idea of Black Arks randomly spawning slaves. Also as far as uses for slaves, what about having Altar buildings which yield beakers if the unit is sacrificed? I don't like the current level limit (of 3 I think in FF).

Would the AI get sacrificing slaves to improve improvements?

Psychic_Llamas said:

-plantations produce 1 extra commerce
-slaves may be sacrificed to create:
---Slave pit 1 gives +1 unhealth, +1 food, +1 hammers, temporary duration.
---Slave pit 2 replaces slave pit 1 and gives +1 unhealth, +1 food, +3 hammers +1 unhappy, temporary duration.
---Slave pit 3 replaces slave pit 2 and gives +2 unhealth, +2 food, +4 hammers +1 unhappy, temporary duration.

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I like these.

Ahriman said:

The idea of extra food was that you can have slaves working on farms. Agricultural labor was a huge part of what slaves did. But the point of giving +1 food +1 unhealth is that you only actually get extra food if you have the health resources to support the slaves.

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Agreed. This is a balanced solution without the potential to cripple civs like the DEs, who live in cold climates or the Ogres or Chaos Dwarves, who live either pretty close to or actually on chaos tiles.

Psychic_Llamas said:

-gives access to Slaver UU (could possibly use the command promotions to give units near it a chance to capture enemy units as slave. unit cap of 4 or 5.)

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Ahriman said:

Why do we need a slaver UU? It makes more sense to me to assume that every unit tries to capture slaves. Its much cleaner if we just give a global x% chance slave capture from combat to all units with slavery civic

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I personally don’t see the point of a slaver UU. I mean, simplicity is key here. We have, through FF, a good mechanic for slavery and the capture of slaves. We even have a sale mechanic (a la Undercouncil), which could be adapted for the Undercouncil replacement. There’s a vote there called, “Setup Slave Trade”. Why add another thing? A Slaver UU seems like overkill to me.

Psychic_Llamas said:

UBs for different civs could be:

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I like the idea of UBs. But I’d like my UBs to have food, not lose food. Imho, the slaves’d be supplementing agriculture a lot, as Ahriman said.

Ahriman said:

Another thought; we might want to have the buildings NOT replace the lower level ones if they are temporary, and keep the effects separate rather than cumulative. That way if the level 3 one expires you still have the level 2 one underneath it. That might not happen if the buildings get replaced?

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Good idea. We could have lvl 3 building last x turns. Then it becomes a lvl 2 building, which last x turns. Then a lvl 1 building, which goes away after x turns.

deadliver said:

I like the idea of Black Arks randomly spawning slaves.

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Wait...spawning. I'm confused. Where'd that come from? The whole spawn thing. I guess I could see the crew being partly slavers. But I think it's unnecessary.

deadliver said:

Also as far as uses for slaves, what about having Altar buildings which yield beakers if the unit is sacrificed? I don't like the current level limit (of 3 I think in FF).

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That'd work very well for the Ogres, the Druchii, and prolly any of the Chaos civs.

Also as far as uses for slaves, what about having Altar buildings which yield beakers if the unit is sacrificed?

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Beakers? Why would slaves give you beakers? And why would it need a building?
You *could* add a lightbulb ability to slaves like how acolytes have it in FFH, that gives ~+30 beakers, but I don't see why you would.

I don't like the current level limit (of 3 I think in FF).

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Level limit of what? I don't understand this.

Would the AI get sacrificing slaves to improve improvements?

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Improve improvements? Do you mean the +300% work rate worker slaves that die when they finish an improvement?
Yes, the AI would use those just fine. It wouldn't understand that using the worker would kill it, but thats ok, it would just use it build the improvement and then the thing would die.
This is much better than the "old" method of half-work rate normal workers that hang around building slwoly, since the AI won't think it has a bunch of workers and so not build its own workers.

I don't know much about unit AI however, or how they are assigned. It would be great if someone could explain this to me in detail (do units get specific routines assigned for city defense, city attack, transport, scout, etc. somehow?)

Wait...spawning. I'm confused. Where'd that come from? The whole spawn thing. I guess I could see the crew being partly slavers. But I think it's unnecessary.

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The idea was that a black ark in enemy territory would automatically be sending out slave raiding parties, but you wouldn't have to control these manually, (and the AI might not do a good job) so the slaves could just passively spawn on the ark (or in the capital).
Its a pretty minor thing though.

Good idea. We could have lvl 3 building last x turns. Then it becomes a lvl 2 building, which last x turns. Then a lvl 1 building, which goes away after x turns.

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This seems more complex than is necessary. I would let the level 1 building, and maybe the level 2 building be permanent (or last for x turns), and the level 3 building last y turns (but be more powerful). And just have them be separate buildings. Like how a university requires a library, and their bonuses stack.
And if the library is destroyed, you can just rebuild it, and if the university is destroyed, you can rebuild it only if you have a library present.
So basically the slave has 3 abilities; create slave pit 1, create slave pit 2, create slave pit 3, but it will only ever be able to activate (at most) one of these, because the slave pit 2 ability will only be accessible if there is already a slave pit 1 in the city, and the slave pit 3 will only be accessible if there is already a slave pit 2 in the city.
And then require that all the buildings need the slavery civic, and destroyed at the end of the turn if you switch out of slavery civic.

I don't like the Undercouncil buy/sell slaves because AFAIK the AI can't use it.

I don't know enough about unit AI though to know if a unit can have both great person AI and worker AI, and have the AI players use both functions.
Or if a great person could have both academy-creation AI (like the great scientist, which we would use for the slave pits, but would require slavery civic) AND the great engineer AI (where you sacrfice the unit for hammers).

Ahriman I think having slaves build as great people instead of spells for temporary buildings needs to be done in python. There is a way to spawn temporary buildings using xml spells (a la Pelemoc and his corruption spells).

Another way I *think* may work is having the slave cast the great people spell, gain a promotion that ticks down and removes the building when the slave finally bites the dust after 5-15 turns (you can set the exact number). Only problem is I am not sure how we would keep the slave from leaving after using the great people building ability.

EDIT: Ahriman, regarding the beakers it could represent the slaves being used specifically by the priesthood for auguries and to garner favor with their deity. In FF, iirc you cannot sacrifice slaves on the altar because it requires the unit to be level three or higher. This was changed to stop buy slaves for beakers abuse. Won't be an issue in warhammer because there will be no slave buying.

As far as improving improvements I was thinking about improving yields from improvements by sacrificing slave units to them but that seems like a bad idea now that I think about it!

As far as the unit AIs, I honestly have no clue. Looks like many units get multiple unit ais and also assigned a default one.

deadliver said:

Only problem is I am not sure how we would keep the slave from leaving after using the great people building ability.

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You could attach something to spell similar to the "Held" promotion (a la FF). Unit cannot move.

Ahriman I think having slaves build as great people instead of spells for temporary buildings needs to be done in python. There is a way to spawn temporary buildings using xml spells (a la Pelemoc and his corruption spells).

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If it requires python it requires python. We just whip PL and Orlanth, and they whip the slaves.
I hadn't thought of just having the slave units cast wall of stone type spells that last as long as the unit is present, but I worry that the AI woudln't leave the slaves in the city long enough to actually benefit, so the sacrifice method is preferable.

I don't think we want to have to have the AI holding groups of slave units in its cities in order to get the benefits.

Ahriman said:

If it requires python it requires python. We just whip PL and Orlanth, and they whip the slaves.
I hadn't thought of just having the slave units cast wall of stone type spells that last as long as the unit is present, but I worry that the AI woudln't leave the slaves in the city long enough to actually benefit, so the sacrifice method is preferable.

I don't think we want to have to have the AI holding groups of slave units in its cities in order to get the benefits.

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As Rlaf mentioned you could use a held promotion to keep them from leaving. This is what Acheron has iirc to keep him from running around (a shame really I love to remove it and watch him kill everyone).

As for Great People mechanics, there is a tag called <iDelay> which we could maybe use to create temporary buildings through GP. I am not sure what it does exactly but one of Pelemoc's buildings (Corrupt Quartermaster I think) has it and that is a temp building iirc.

deadliver said:

As Rlaf mentioned you could use a held promotion to keep them from leaving. This is what Acheron has iirc to keep him from running around.

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Exactly. The trick would be for it to be attached to a spell. In this case, the slave spell that creates these buildings.

Exactly. The trick would be for it to be attached to a spell. In this case, the slave spell that creates these buildings.

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Yes, you *could* do it that way, but its awfully messy.

You also have to have some way of stopping the same slave from building all three levels of slave pit in the same city.
And you have to tie the building to the specific slave that created it so that it disappears when that slave dies. Normally, summoned buildings stay as long as any unit who can cast the spell them is present in the city.

I think having buildings created by sacrificing a slave is far easier than having them created by spell and force that slave to stay in the city.

i prefer the sacrificning slave mechanic. its tidier, and encourages getting more slaves which is the point.

i think making the level 1 and 2 pitspermanent is good and the third tier being temporary works.

i think each level of slave pit could alow different sacrifice bonuses from slaves (AKA sacrifice slave for hammers, gold, or food) with various levels.

Various religious temples should alow slave to be sacrificed to grant beakers, aka sacrificing them on alters of khain to gain kahin's favour.

its tidier, and encourages getting more slaves which is the point.

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Agreed, I'm sure you or Orlanth will be up for a little Python.

i think each level of slave pit could alow different sacrifice bonuses from slaves (AKA sacrifice slave for hammers, gold, or food) with various levels.

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I dunno, I think a mix of each for each level still makes sense, and I don't really see them bringing gold. Hammers and food, but not really gold. But I'm flexible on this.

Various religious temples should alow slave to be sacrificed to grant beakers, aka sacrificing them on alters of khain to gain kahin's favour.

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Is the AI likely to understand that?
And is ritual slave sacrifice a big dark-elf thing?

And do you know enough about unit AI; does the unit need to be *either* great person *or* worker for the AI to use it sensibly?

In any case we need to limit the number of things that slaves can do. Current candidates are:
a) Use as fast workers (that die on completion)
b) Sacrifice in cities to create slave pit buildings (requires slavery civic)
c) Sacrifice in cities for hammers (great engineer)
d) Sacrifice in cities for beakers? (Dark elf only??)

I think it will be much simpler if we have just a) and b) or b) and c).
Dark elves and other races will already get a bonus through a passive slave-capture chance through their racial promotion.

I dunno, I think a mix of each for each level still makes sense, and I don't really see them bringing gold. Hammers and food, but not really gold. But I'm flexible on this.

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ok. how about each level increases the ammount of hammers/food gained from sacrifice?

Is the AI likely to understand that?

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yep.

And is ritual slave sacrifice a big dark-elf thing?

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ZOMG YES they love their blood and sacrifice

i think:

Slaves as fast workers that die after is a must have.

i also think sacrificnign them for food, hammers and beakers is a must have

and im fairly flexible on the slave pit buildings.

ps not only darkelves sacrifice slaves to the gods. im thinking amazonia and chaos would do the same.

ok. how about each level increases the ammount of hammers/food gained from sacrifice?

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Maybe... but also each level can just have higher yields.
Like above: level 1 = +1 food +1 unhealth +1 hammer.
Level 2 = +1 food +1 unhealth +2 hammer.
Level 3 = +1 unhappy, +25% hammers.

Slaves as fast workers that die after is a must have.
i also think sacrificnign them for food, hammers and beakers is a must have

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I think this is too many functions. How will the AI intelligently choose which to spend them on?
And sacrificing for food directly? Except for ogres, thats just weird.

I'm also really unsure about needing extra buildings whose sole purpose is for slave sacrifice. That sounds like somethnig that is going to be pretty useless most of the time, and the Ai won't know it needs to move the slaves to a building with the altar.

buildings whose sole purpose is for slave sacrifice.

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obviously that wont be the sole purpose. its just an added bonus to the temple of Khain and Choas temples on top of their other benefits

also, AI can use great ppl perfectly fine. i dont see an issue with them using slaves the same.

Okay so it sounds like slaves are going the GP route and that it is doable. I like the idea of making the first building permanent and the rest stackable but temporary. Kind of like a temporary altar of luonnator set up.

obviously that wont be the sole purpose. its just an added bonus to the temple of Khain and Choas temples on top of their other benefits

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Ok, this seems reasonable... but would it be added to all the chaos temples?

also, AI can use great ppl perfectly fine. i dont see an issue with them using slaves the same.

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But great people aren't workers.
I don't think the AI is capable of deciding between using a slave as a worker to build improvements vs using it as a great person in a city.

I dunno, maybe it will be fine, or won't matter much if they AI doesn't do a very efficient job.

We also need to think about tech timing; slavery will come well before there are temples around.

So maybe we could have three things:
a) An effect that any slave can do. Either workers, or sacrifice in city for hammers.
b) An effect that a slave can do that requires a particular temple (and so is faction-specific). Potentially this could vary by temples? So some temples give + temporary happy, some give + beakers, some give + hammers, etc.
c) An effect that a slave can do that requires the slavery civic. Like building the slave pit buildings.

but would it be added to all the chaos temples?

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i thought so. is there any reason not to?

So maybe we could have three things:
a) An effect that any slave can do. Either workers, or sacrifice in city for hammers.
b) An effect that a slave can do that requires a particular temple (and so is faction-specific). Potentially this could vary by temples? So some temples give + temporary happy, some give + beakers, some give + hammers, etc.
c) An effect that a slave can do that requires the slavery civic. Like building the slave pit buildings.

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these are good. id stick with them being one shot fast workers for a) though.

I also want the slave sacrifice mechanic. For the Druchii, it's a must have.

a) An effect that any slave can do. Either workers, or sacrifice in city for hammers.

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I like this. And the work fast and then die thing is awesome. Honestly, that's how most of the Chaotic civs would drive their slaves. Slaves are just expendable labor, something to vent your cruelty on. Plus, I'd see the Greenskins also doing this.
I don't think the good civs'll be using slavery enough to take advantage of all this. In fact, I'd advocate we use a FF tag in LeaderHeadInfos. I can't remember the exact name of the tag. But it allows you to stack certain civs against certain civics. I recommend we stack the good civs moderately against slavery. So, they'll adopt it when they discover Bronze Working. But once they can choose something else, they do.

All those buildings etc sound kind of time consuming to develop; for now maybe stick to straightforward stuff (fast workers that die on completion plus city hammer sacrifice ability) and add others later if needed.

The slaving expeditions though could possibly be done by Black Ark of Naggarond could having an Effect Promotion similar to below (though would require additional python work to actually spawn the Slaves). Hopefully a naval blockade as one of its possible AI scripts would let the computer use the Arks, since the promotion automatically becomes active when appropriate.

Slaving Expedition
Automatically active only when within enemy or rival borders with CIVIC_SLAVERY active. Subtracts -2 Food -1 Influence from nearby city, worsens diplomatic relations with city owner. Has 50% chance per turn to generate Slave unit.