Indonesia discussion

Something that hasn't really been talked about:

Anyone else surprised they chose a land UU as opposed to a naval UU?

Historically, it makes much more sense. Indonesia is as seafaring as a seafaring nation gets. Sending ships from Africa to Polynesia (and some claim even further) at a time when there was little control of the seas. During the "Spice Islands" era, there are plenty of ships to choose from

Gameplay wise, it synergizes much more nicely with the UA which forces you to defend your cities on different landmasses. You can make a case for the Kris Swordsman being useful in many circumstances especially with certain perks, but you can't deny a ship feels much better

I have a theory that sometimes the devs focus on the civ as a whole which requires a synergizing of Uniques (see: Portugal, Huns, Aztecs)...

...but sometimes they zero in on the UA which is so specific and conceptually focused that the other Uniques are more of a side addition (see: Indonesia, Austria, Egypt)

seancolorado said:

Something that hasn't really been talked about:

Anyone else surprised they chose a land UU as opposed to a naval UU?

Historically, it makes much more sense. Indonesia is as seafaring as a seafaring nation gets. Sending ships from Africa to Polynesia (and some claim even further) at a time when there was little control of the seas. During the "Spice Islands" era, there are plenty of ships to choose from

Gameplay wise, it synergizes much more nicely with the UA which forces you to defend your cities on different landmasses. You can make a case for the Kris Swordsman being useful in many circumstances especially with certain perks, but you can't deny a ship feels much better

I have a theory that sometimes the devs focus on the civ as a whole which requires a synergizing of Uniques (see: Portugal, Huns, Aztecs)...

...but sometimes they zero in on the UA which is so specific and conceptually focused that the other Uniques are more of a side addition (see: Indonesia, Austria, Egypt)

Click to expand...

That's an excellent point. I don't see it as "zeroing in on the UA" as such (there's usually a facet of a civ that "makes it", whether UA, UB, UU or UI) but making some civs *not* have an obvious direction and victory path that should be followed every game. See the recent discussion in the "India Changes?" thread for example.

Indonesia is as much, if not more, of a "pro civ" as Venice in my book - I suspect they will require a lot of thought as to how to leverage each of their uniques in any given game. There will be some games where their UB is useless, others where the UA is not worth pursuing, etc.

seancolorado said:

Something that hasn't really been talked about:

Anyone else surprised they chose a land UU as opposed to a naval UU?

...

I have a theory that sometimes the devs focus on the civ as a whole which requires a synergizing of Uniques (see: Portugal, Huns, Aztecs)...

...but sometimes they zero in on the UA which is so specific and conceptually focused that the other Uniques are more of a side addition (see: Indonesia, Austria, Egypt)

Click to expand...

Well yeah.., I'm surprised but it's understandable.. Indonesia is more known for her kris rather than her ships..

I can feel the devs put their spirit and works hard to create Indonesia (creating three new resources, many new promotions, and unique mechanism for Candi)..
However, it seems they didn't know which aspects Indonesia need to focus..

Rant :
The unique items that the devs choose is alright IMO.., spices, kris, and candi.. The problem is -like you said- synchronization between them..
If they slightly synergizing the three unique items, -for the example like this below- it will be perfect :
- Kris is focusing to generate faith (In additional of random promotion, maybe similiar with Gold in "one click get" ala Portugal's Nau but triggered in the first battle) > Create a Religion > Got a Religion for Candi (Kris is a mythical weapon. The user has a faith that the kris has a power, hence generating faith)
- Spices attract trade from the other civs > Receive Religions from them > Got Religions for Candi
- Candi generates Culture/Faith from Religions (prefer to generate culture, which is not overlapped with Kris)

Even the "pro civ" Venice has unique items working together..

AessaSH said:

Even the "pro civ" Venice has unique items working together..

Click to expand...

Reading the interviews it is quite obvious that Venice is one of the Civs that they really wanted to make, while Indonesia was one that they felt that needed to, or had to, include due to fan pressure (a la The Zulu).

There is synergy, you just need to work for it, which you don't need to do for some other civs. They all benefit going wide (I would like them on a wide science game in the vein of korea wide science), as they have a faily early UU to help the early warring required, and a UA built on expansion. That the UB works by not having a totally dominating religion, you don't need to spend so much effort on religion initially either, so more hammer for war and expansion. The UA is not only for happy/gold, but will also benefit resource diversity and therefore trade routes and transfer of religions, which will aid the UB. The UB could be used to buy more units with the follower of reformation in order to continue expanding, or just straight for interfaith dialogue, which does not require majority followers in a tonne of cities. Later it can buy Great people to help the whole science thing. Or if GWAMs work on seperate counters, that could be useful too for a wider culture game (if they're now possible?). The great people thing works well with the UB because it is a garden. Seems to work very well together to me. Quite versatile as well, because if war is going well then domination is fine too, and diplomacy doesn't seem outrageous either. I love versatile civs, and with the right land, may even try them with tradition for better Great person production.

I can see that this civ will be great for playing wide. More faith mean easier Pagoda/Mosque/Cathedral and more lux means more happiness.

If playing tall, this civ will only be intuitive if playing archipelago/earth map with lucky spot. Otherwise, it need lots of calculations to take benefit of its UA/UB.

bob massingbird said:

I can see that this civ will be great for playing wide. More faith mean easier Pagoda/Mosque/Cathedral and more lux means more happiness.

If playing tall, this civ will only be intuitive if playing archipelago/earth map with lucky spot. Otherwise, it need lots of calculations to take benefit of its UA/UB.

Click to expand...

it is should be wide, because Indonesia is one of the largest country in the world:

"15 Indonesia 241,973,900 pop 1,919,440.00 land square km" (take from world atlas)

combined with sea territory, Indonesia is the largest archipelago country in the world (according to CIA)

===

nevertheless, if you play in large landmass, Indonesia should secure territory in the mainland as much as it can, then expand to the small island, pump with trade to make essential infrastructure , combined with candi as you mention, then Indonesia will be flourished

The Kris Swordsman has 9 different random promotions

At least that's what it appears to be

And 7 of them are positive

2 give a chance of negative

EDIT: As pointed out below, 6 of them are positive (Not 7)

2 are negative

1 is the starter promotion which leads to these +/- promotions

seancolorado said:

And 7 of them are positive
2 give a chance of negative

Click to expand...

PROMOTION_MYSTIC_BLADE
Promotion is replaced with a randomly chosen new promotion after the unit completes its first combat

PROMOTION_INVULNERABIILITY
+30% Combat Bonus when defending. +20 Hit Points when healing

PROMOTION_SNEAK_ATTACK
Flank attack bonus increased by 50%

PROMOTION_HEROISM
Unit awards combat bonus to nearby units as if it is a Great General

PROMOTION_AMBITION
+50% Combat Bonus when attacking. -20% penalty when defending

PROMOTION_RESTLESSNESS
May Attack Twice. 1 Extra Movement

PROMOTION_RECRUITMENT
Heals All Damage If Kills Non-Barbarian Unit

PROMOTION_ENEMY_BLADE
Takes 20 Damage If Ends Turn in Enemy Territory

PROMOTION_EVIL_SPIRITS
-10% penalty when attacking. -30% penalty when defending

I still think they are overall too strong, even with the chance of getting a negative promotion.

Wow. The 7 good ones are powerful. The 2 bad ones will either be for setting in your cities or just delete them.

And just a guess, the best way to get that Enemy Blade Achievement would be GG drilling within range of the capital.

There's an achievement to capture an enemy city with the Enemy Blade... Seriously, the bad promotions are REALLY bad...
Heroism is a cool concept, but it won't matter much if you already have a Great General. Invulnerability and Sneak Attack are SUUUUPER STRONG.

Hmm, I wonder if Heroism stacks? I love Restlessness... with 'may attack twice', and the extra movement would Blitz give it a potential 3?

Sorry evil spirits blade, but you're getting deleted

Terracotta Army with its new effect seems like it'd be brilliant for Indonesia. If you luck out enough to be running around with a restless and recruitment Kris, doubling up on them would be excellent.

Invulnerability seems to be the best for conquest as melee are mostly meatshields (see that thread), restlessness is blitz + 1 movement, not really strong if the problem with melee units continue to exist. Heroism is good if it stacks, otherwise it's a bit meh since it's easy to get Great Generals. Ambition is the opposite of invulnerability, meaning good luck for keeping one alive with the combat system as it is... I'd count that one to the negative ones as well.

Not sure though why the already "weaker" Indonesians need a chance to get a bad promotion, just imagine when you get 2 of them in a row. And their main use btw. would be to gift these units to a City State (or keep at home for the enemy blade one)

It's 6 good ones and 2 bad ones. So, 25% of your soldiers will have a permanent de-buff, although enemy blade could still be just as effective for defense, evil spirit guy will need to be deleted, or garrisoned away on somewhere safe if you're going Tradition or Honor.

Mystic Blade is the starter promotion. It gets replaced by one promotion from the 8 listed below it. They don't get multiple special promotions.

Arkangelus said:

Sorry evil spirits blade, but you're getting deleted

Terracotta Army with its new effect seems like it'd be brilliant for Indonesia. If you luck out enough to be running around with a restless and recruitment Kris, doubling up on them would be excellent.

Click to expand...

Nope, gift it to some poor City-State just for the LOLs

BTW, what is the new Teracotta Army bonus?

EDIT: Never mind, just saw it.

HeraldtheGreat said:

Nope, gift it to some poor City-State just for the LOLs

Click to expand...

Now there's an idea.

Arkangelus said:

Hmm, I wonder if Heroism stacks? I love Restlessness... with 'may attack twice', and the extra movement would Blitz give it a potential 3?

Sorry evil spirits blade, but you're getting deleted

Terracotta Army with its new effect seems like it'd be brilliant for Indonesia. If you luck out enough to be running around with a restless and recruitment Kris, doubling up on them would be excellent.

Click to expand...

I don't think it copies promotions... otherwise if you have
sword with drill 1 cover 1
sword with drill 2
sword with shock 1 cover 1
sword with shock 2

Then it would give you 4 swords... I doubt that.

It will probably only give you one sword.
(although it is uncertain if it has a continuing effect)

turingmachine said:

I still think they are overall too strong, even with the chance of getting a negative promotion.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the list

Yeah, I would say they are too strong, especially with the chance of getting a negative promotion; I like the randomness, but this is more luck based than it could be. You get "invulnerable" and you have a great (perhaps OP) fighter for the rest of the game (assuming it carries through upgrades). You get a cursed one, and the unit production was pretty much a waste.

It could be that each promotion has a (powerful) upside and (less powerful) downside, like Ambition. Invulnerable could reduce movement points to 1. Some could still be overall better than others, but there wouldn't have to be any that are obvious throwaways like there are now. For even more crazy randomness, it could always give two promotions: one from a "good" pool and one from a "bad" pool.

the actual ideas they put forward for the promotions are quite good overall though. the variety is solid.

If you in the process of warmongering and get a bad promotion, just use them as a meat shield and sacrificial unit. I really like Recruitment if I'm on the attack. I wonder how much getting certain promotions will affect whether or not I pursue a certain strategy.

If you are playing defensively, the Enemy Blade isn't really harmful as it just makes your Kris Swordsman become a regular Swordsman. Although the Ambition promotion, while good for attack, becomes harmful for defense unless you use it as a unit to sweep away the already-weakened enemies.