US Gov't Sues Arizona Over Immigration Law

No, they aren't even close to being the same numbers. To suggest they are is patently absurd, and so is insinuating that they are in any way similiar.

I've heard of estimates anywhere from 10-30% of the population in Wisconsin will have a DUI/DWI at some point in their lives. Many reasons for this, but being the only state where the first DUI/DWI is treated as a traffic violation and not a crime doesn't help.

Have you ever even been in a state with a lot of undocumented immigrants? How do you think they keep from starving and why they have decided to live that way? They have jobs.

I don't doubt many people do hire them, but whether or not these employers are greater than 10-30% of the general population I would love to see the evidence of this.
 
I've heard of estimates anywhere from 10-30% of the population in Wisconsin will have a DUI/DWI at some point in their lives. Many reasons for this, but being the only state where the first DUI/DWI is treated as a traffic violation and not a crime doesn't help.
Let me help you to dispel that notion:

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/safety/motorist/drunkdriving/arrests.htm

A snapshot of the Wisconsin Department of Transportation Division of Motor Vehicles Driver Record File taken January 1, 2001 showed that:

234,826 drivers had 1 OWI conviction
34,435 drivers had 2 OWI convictions
16,708 drivers had 3 OWI convictions
5,250 drivers had 4 OWI convictions
1,666 drivers had 5 OWI convictions
557 drivers had 6 OWI convictions
205 drivers had 7 OWI convictions
63 drivers had 8 OWI convictions
27 drivers had 9 OWI convictions
11 drivers had 10 OWI convictions
7 drivers had 11 OWI convictions
1 driver had 12 OWI convictions
1 driver had 13 OWI convictions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin

Population 5,363,675
So 5% would be an accurate assessment unless the population of the state or the number of DUIs has suddenly increased. And as you can see most people don't ever do it again, so draconian measures at the first arrest as you suggested would not be productive. It sounds like you want revenge much more than justice.

There are ostensibly 11 million undocumented immigrants in the US. But most of them are in a handful of states, such as Arizona, which supposedly has 500,000. I imagine it is not uncommon at all for a typical affluent Phoenix household to employ one to cut their grass or clean their toilets. In other words, many of the same people who are complaining about the undocumented immigrants are also exploiting them for their own personal gain. And they are obviously very rarely prosecuted for the heinous crime of employing one to do so.
 
Wait, what? I think this is a matter of federal level, not states.



So...you want to solve illegal immigration by...enslaving them. Ok.



Democratic opinions on immigration are as differed as every other issue. The democratic party is a very diversified tent encompassing several different political opinions. As always, support what you're saying with evidence, and don't let the opinions of 1 or 2 democrats give you false impressions of every member of the party.



And yet California banne

LAWd gay marriage...:mischief:. Most of California is actually very conservative. It's just the fact that the Bay Area, and the LA Area, which are themselves extremely liberal have such a large population compared to the rest of the state that they override the conservative bits.



What about abortion in the cases of rape or when the life of the mother is threatened?



How on earth could you hate your country so much? GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY YOU UNAMERICAN JERK!!



No. They were a bunch of treacherous rebels, much like ourselves when we first started the Revolutionary War. Unlike the South, however, we won.

NOTE TO OWN AND AJIDICA- #1= Response to first Paragraph you Posted, #2 = #2 and so forth.

Also, Horray for Owen for finally not having a baseball avatar, as it was not Yankees and it was baseball it was evil.

Anyway:

1. Maybe whether to allow it or not, but since it IS ILLEGAL the states have the right to punish it how they please.

2. Define slavery. Slavery as in, a form of indentured servitude to pay off a crime or debt, for a limited amount of time as its proscribed in the Bible, I favor it.

I'm not saying, "Work them 16 hours a day like animals!" They'd work a normal amount, and, although not paid (Hence the punishment) they would be given enough food and a (Reletively) decent place to sleep. We wouldn't beat them as punishment, and it would be unrelated to race (If someone from Canada was an illega we'd do the same thing.)

3. I know this, but I'm referring to the party. Democrats (As a whole) support illegal immigrants to a certain degree. Similar to how they support abortions and gay marriage, not all of them do, but their party platform does.

4. The rest of California should form a new state then. What right do those two cities have to run all California? (The same reason liberals in a few cities have the right to run the United States;))

5. Before I give you my answer, be aware, you don't think a baby is a life. While I disagree and think the thought (Not you yourself) is barbaric, for now, I'm going to respect the view.

I ask you this, IF you considered the baby a life, a fully living being, how would you answer the question.

My answer is no, I do not support it. In either case.

Someone I know who supports its LEGALITY (But not morality) when the mother's life is in danger, said this about the issue "What if the mother needs heart surgery to survive, but it will kill the baby?" I say, in this case, no matter what you do, you aren't killing anyone, but you are letting someone die (I believe God can save them.) In this case, while I don't like it, the mother would have to be allowed to choose to get the surgery.

However, actually KILLING the baby to save yourself is just as murderous as any other form of abortion (Though maybe more forgivable.)

Before anyone asks if I believe Abortion, just like murder, should be punished by death, I answer this, yes I do. Not for those who have had them in the past, but in the future, yes.

PS On this point: I'll accept the liberal rank and file accepts the baby isn't a life, but the abortion doctors know the truth. In the words of one "I have killed a million babies and I consider it my passion."

6. I respect the leaders of this country in the sense that I will obey their laws (Unless my state mans up and nullifys them, which my state, New York Will not, though I hope my former state Florida will.) However, I have no respect for Obama in the true sense, not because he's a liberal, but because he's corrupt to the core. For instance, despite us being opposites on nearly everything we stand for, I have quite a bit of respect to you based on your general respectful tone on the forums and you genuinely believing what you say. Unfortunately, the democrats have deceived you.
First off, please let me know which points you are responding to with your numbers. Its common curtousy.

7.I would consider them a nation as well.

They were also rebels I agree, but they were a nation.

:dubious:

No "We believe" there. People are endowed with the inalienable right to life and pursuit of happiness. How is shooting someone who is trying to gain for themselves a happier life, believing in the self-evident truths? I agree with you illegal immegration in illegal, and why I don't advocate for complete amnesty. Because, well, they aren't supposed to be here. However, disregarding the constitution and instituting the Arizona Law allowing people to be harrassed based solely on suspicion is not how a civilized society functions.


No jail now? but you said jail them here:

We fine them, but they don't have any real money.
Forcing them to work for several years, we still have to feed, cloth, and shelter them for those years.


Aaaand wrong.

Hmmm. Nope. Nowhere does it say in the passage or entire article that dems want to let them enter freely. I doubt you can find any serious politician that says borders should completly be dismantled. I'm into geo-political unity and I quite firmly beleive that at this stage tearing down borders is a very bad idea.


We are a liberal nation? When did that happen? Basicaly all of the Europeans and most of the American here say that we are right leaning centrists at best. We are not a left leaning nation. As for California, only the densly populated areas are liberal. Back in the seventies there was this one californian politician who was so Anti-Gay that anti-gay people now look like moderates. Plus I think the Birther Queen Orly Taitz is from california. Plus they do have a conservative governor.


Okay, what if one of the unchangeable rule was one that you disagreed with, say it was giving gays full rights and forcing Christian churches to marry gays. Would you still support the unchangeable nature of said rules?

Okay, no communism, but what about Socialism, or so forth? Any time the government taxes you they are taking your property. However, where in the Constitution or BoR does it give you absolute rights to property?
If there is the right to life, no death penalties either. Unless of course you believe that they can be applied differently to individual cases, they property would no longer be an absolute. Right to life=No abortion or death penalty.
Further question: would the rules stay unchangeable even if there was a 99.9% majority asking for them to be changed? If you still belive they shouldn't be changed, then we no longer have a government by the people and for the people. Hence, Locke says we can revolt.


No one is asking you to like the president. I highly disliked Bush and I would point out to my friends where he was wrong and overstepping his authority, but I never once said a secession would be good or make up baseless lies about him. (Especialy lies that cannot occur, a communist dictator for example. There is no government in a communist society.)
If you cannot respect the holder, then you do not respect the office. Simple as that.


Where did you get the idea that it wasn't a rebellion? The revolting states decided they would leave the Union and form their own government. In the process they attacked Union territory. How is that not a rebellion? Whether or not the CSA was a formal nation is another matter entirely.


What does that have to do with the UN? The UN exists to promote freedom and equality across the world and to prevent war? Do you disagree with that?

Source? Since when has the government prevented you from going into a store?

Errrrrrr. The government has the rights outlined in the Constitution. Among which is the ability to tax as per Section 8.
You are aware that a libertarian society expects people to be rational. No offense, not understanding basic concepts about our government and spouting inaccurate and offensive crap doesn't sound very rational. Please try to emulate the poster Ayn Rand in your posts a bit more. I disagree vehemently with his opinions but at least he knows what he is talking about.

EDIT: Slightly random, but are you aware traditionaly the meaning of Conservative is wanting a large central government that exerts force over people to make them conform? Just letting you know. Look up Klemens von Metternich and the Karlsbad Decrees and learn the origins of your movement.
1. OK, let's say I killed someone because it makes me happy. Does "Pursit of happiness" apply to me.

2. I just meant do something, jailing them is better than doing nothing, but its not the proper solution.

LAWS- People have certain rights. I'm saying, as the founders did, government cannot take those rights.

Death Penalty- While I'd rather have neither than both, the death penalty is a punishment for breaking the law. Abortion is the punishment for existing, or for a rapist sometimes.
 

At that time they only kept a DUI on your record for 7 years (now they keep it on there for life), and I was talking lifetime, not the last 7 years. If you find any more recent data then it would only be the number with a DUI since they started keeping on their record for life (mid 2000's).

There is nearly one employer for every illegal? Because that is pretty much what you would need for the number of employers hiring illegals in Arizona to match the number of people who get DUIs in Wisconsin.
 
So this must be all over the local news if it is such an egregious problem as you continue to insinuate. Source, please?

And no, there are typically numerous employers for a single toilet cleaner or lawn cutter. You don't think my maid lived with me and only cleaned my tiny studio, right? I'd say over half the people I knew in Manhattan had a maid come in every week or two, and most of them were undocumented immigrants. And you want to arrest them all!
 
So this must be all over the local news if it is such an egregious problem as you continue to insinuate. Source, please?

It would be all over the local news if it was a new phenomenon.

I know the math isn't perfect on this, but 300,000 people with at least 1 DUI over the previous 7 years, now how many had some in the previous 21 years, 40 years, lifetime?

And no, there are typically numerous employers for a single toilet cleaner or lawn cutter.

Just as there are employers who hire more than one worker....

You don't think my maid lived with me and only cleaned my tiny studio, right?

Too busy posting on CFC OT to clean up after yourself? :p

And you want to arrest them all!

Sure, why not? Realistically, it won't happen just like realistically you won't be able to catch every drunk driver on the road (where 25% of wisconsin drivers admitted to doing as recently as within the previous year of the study).

We should look at other ways to discourage people from driving drunk and discourage illegals from coming here and discourage people from hiring illegals so that less actual enforcement (patrols, immigration checks, arrests, etc) is needed.
 
It would be all over the local news if it was a new phenomenon.
And it would be easily findable even if it were old news.

I know the math isn't perfect on this, but 300,000 people with at least 1 DUI over the previous 7 years, now how many had some in the previous 21 years, 40 years, lifetime?
That is assuming that the records are actually for only the past 7 years. They certainly kept other records much longer than that:

Since 1990, the number of drinking drivers in crashes has declined 42% (from 13,730). In 1990, 2,135 (15%) of the 13,730 drinking drivers in crashes were under age 21. (The minimum drinking age in Wisconsin was raised from 18 to 19 in July, 1984, and from 19 to 21 in September, 1986.)

And believe it or not, driving under the influence used to be no real big deal before MADD. Most people were escorted home instead of arrested. It was only the problem cases that were typically arrested; the ones who actually hurt someone or who were frequently stopped because they clearly could not operate their vehicles.

So you have no real data to support your allegation that 10-30% of entire state of Wisconsin supposedly belong in prison at some stage of their lives.

Just as there are employers who hire more than one worker....
Sure, most of them are agricultural workers. But the ones who live in Maricopa County and are being deliberately harassed by what is likely the most bigoted sheriff in the entire US probably mow lawns or clean toilets instead. You aren't going to find many farms in Phoenix.

Too busy posting on CFC OT to clean up after yourself? :p
Actually, that was long before I posted here. I currently don't have a maid, but I could certainly use one. :p

Sure, why not? Realistically, it won't happen just like realistically you won't be able to catch every drunk driver on the road (where 25% of wisconsin drivers admitted to doing as recently as within the previous year of the study).
I've certainly driven when I shouldn't have on numerous occasions. I'm sure that is likely the case with most people who have ever gone to bars or drink alchohol with their meals. And you want to put them all in prison!

We should look at other ways to discourage people from driving drunk and discourage illegals from coming here and discourage people from hiring illegals so that less actual enforcement (patrols, immigration checks, arrests, etc) is needed.
I have an idea. Why don't we hire a lot more cops and build 10 times as many prisons as we currently have. After all, we are already the laughing stock of most of the world in this regard already.



Or we could simply take the common sense approach and eventually make them all citizens. You can't very well arrest and imprison someone for merely hiring someone who is Latino to cut your grass.
 
Under my section you only gave me 4 points, so just to be safe I'm responding to some of Owens points. I won't be available to respond to your rebuttal post for two weeks so don't hold your breath for an answer. Why can't you just break up the quotes? It makes your posts easier to read.
NOTE TO OWN AND AJIDICA- #1= Response to first Paragraph you Posted, #2 = #2 and so forth.

Also, Horray for Owen for finally not having a baseball avatar, as it was not Yankees and it was baseball it was evil.

Anyway:

1. Maybe whether to allow it or not, but since it IS ILLEGAL the states have the right to punish it how they please.
Immegration is a federal issue. They chose how they want to handle it.
2. Define slavery. Slavery as in, a form of indentured servitude to pay off a crime or debt, for a limited amount of time as its proscribed in the Bible, I favor it.
I'm willing to bet you also enjoy using a computer and lightswitches and a warm meal on Saturday and you wear clothes with two types of thread. Bible says that is bad. If you wear basicaly any modern clothing it will probably contain more than two types of thread.
I'm not saying, "Work them 16 hours a day like animals!" They'd work a normal amount, and, although not paid (Hence the punishment) they would be given enough food and a (Reletively) decent place to sleep. We wouldn't beat them as punishment, and it would be unrelated to race (If someone from Canada was an illega we'd do the same thing.)
Isn't that the same thing as putting them in jail and having them do community service? They are still being supported at taxpayer expense.
3. I know this, but I'm referring to the party. Democrats (As a whole) support illegal immigrants to a certain degree. Similar to how they support abortions and gay marriage, not all of them do, but their party platform does.
I'm a democrat and I am against illegal immegration. But however I do support an immegration reform that deals fairly with illegals who have lived here a long time and have children born here. Children shouldn't be ripped from their parents when the parent hasn't abused them, but we can't deport the children. The restrictions on legal immegration need to be reduced.
4. The rest of California should form a new state then. What right do those two cities have to run all California? (The same reason liberals in a few cities have the right to run the United States;))
First off, California voted down gay marriage and they have a conservative Governor. Not the bastion of liberalism. Second, a few cities don't run the US. Cities don't have a role in government. Senators and representatives do. They are elected by the people and if the people want liberals, so be it.
5. Before I give you my answer, be aware, you don't think a baby is a life. While I disagree and think the thought (Not you yourself) is barbaric, for now, I'm going to respect the view.
For the first few weeks (or days) the fetus is little more than a group of cells with the potential to become life. I support first term abortion with strictly regulated second and third term. Third term abortion should only be done in cases of threat to mothers life or if the baby has severe mental damage or physical issues that would make life outside the womb a short and painful process.
I ask you this, IF you considered the baby a life, a fully living being, how would you answer the question.
By second term it is a life, but it is part of the mothers body and she has the right to determine what happens to it if doctors deem action nescesary.
My answer is no, I do not support it. In either case.
Why should your views be imposed upon others? I disagree with tenents of the Baptist religion (namely the speaking in tounges thing) but I won't make them stop.
Someone I know who supports its LEGALITY (But not morality) when the mother's life is in danger, said this about the issue "What if the mother needs heart surgery to survive, but it will kill the baby?" I say, in this case, no matter what you do, you aren't killing anyone, but you are letting someone die (I believe God can save them.) In this case, while I don't like it, the mother would have to be allowed to choose to get the surgery.
However, actually KILLING the baby to save yourself is just as murderous as any other form of abortion (Though maybe more forgivable.)
Before anyone asks if I believe Abortion, just like murder, should be punished by death, I answer this, yes I do. Not for those who have had them in the past, but in the future, yes.
Would you still be against abortion if the mother was a rape victim? Why should she be forced to carry a child from a horrific incedent?
PS On this point: I'll accept the liberal rank and file accepts the baby isn't a life, but the abortion doctors know the truth. In the words of one "I have killed a million babies and I consider it my passion."
Source for the quote or it was never said. Remember, Christians have Torqemada and the Crusades on their conciousness.
You still didn't answer whether you would be against changing the laws even if 99.9% wanted the laws changed.


6. I respect the leaders of this country in the sense that I will obey their laws (Unless my state mans up and nullifys them, which my state, New York Will not, though I hope my former state Florida will.) However, I have no respect for Obama in the true sense, not because he's a liberal, but because he's corrupt to the core.
Source? Obamas not corrupt. Sure backroom deal occur, but its like that with all politics. Its like Bismarck said "Laws are like sausuges. Its best not to know how they are made."
For instance, despite us being opposites on nearly everything we stand for, I have quite a bit of respect to you based on your general respectful tone on the forums and you genuinely believing what you say. Unfortunately, the democrats have deceived you.
Dems have decieved nobody. I made a concious choice. Too many dems are spineless and unable to pass any real legislation. Its just the dems are the closest to were my political views lie. My views tend to mesh well, while yours, no offense, tend to be a jumble of misconstrued libertarianism, neo-cons, and a fair bit of adolescent idealism. At times you raise good points, its just these points lack credibilty due to you calling Obama a communist when he isn't, your at times mysignostic views (remember back in the overrated presidents thread when you said women shouldn't be allowed to vote? You have come some distance since then), and deifing Glenn Beck despite him going postal at callers. You have some promise, work on it.

1. OK, let's say I killed someone because it makes me happy. Does "Pursit of happiness" apply to me.
Nope, as you killed a person. Thats why I oppose the death penalty. The illegal coming over here is trying to fulfil one of the rights while not directly harming anybody.

2. I just meant do something, jailing them is better than doing nothing, but its not the proper solution.
You still flip-flopped on your decision. Don't deride politicians for doing the same things you do. However, your two solutions seem to be either:
>Jail or fine them for a few hundred dollars at best.
LAWS- People have certain rights. I'm saying, as the founders did, government cannot take those rights.
The founders weren't gods. They were a bunch of half-drunk white guys trying to do something that had never been done before. Thats why they included the elastic clause. (The half-drunk thing is true. It was so hot in Philadelphia that 'lunch break' lasted from role call to closing. All the reps went to the various taverns to drink while Madison (he didn't drink) went around and collected all of the ideas.)
Death Penalty- While I'd rather have neither than both, the death penalty is a punishment for breaking the law. Abortion is the punishment for existing, or for a rapist sometimes.
So wait, how is abortion a punishment for a rapist? Wouldn't a more fitting punishment be, I don't know, emasculation? Do you believe that first term abortions when the baby could not survive externaly for rape victims is justified?
The death penalty is still killing, except here we have created laws to justify it. As a Christian you should know, no one is beyond redemption. If God wishes them to die he will ensure they die through his will alone. There is no need for us to act for God.
 
Why should your views be imposed upon others? I disagree with tenents of the Baptist religion (namely the speaking in tounges thing) but I won't make them stop.

Speaking in tongues isn't baptist, it's pentecostal/charismatic.
 
NOTE TO OWN AND AJIDICA- #1= Response to first Paragraph you Posted, #2 = #2 and so forth.

Just do that with the quote features like everyone else. It's much more convenient because we can see exactly what you are referring to. As for everyone else being annoyed by it, it is because you often list numbers in reference to points that aren't clearly set out by numbers, paragraphs, points, or anything else.

Also, Horray for Owen for finally not having a baseball avatar, as it was not Yankees and it was baseball it was evil.

Please keep avatar discussion in the avatar discussion thread, this is not the place for it.

1. Maybe whether to allow it or not, but since it IS ILLEGAL the states have the right to punish it how they please.

No, the federal government has the right to punish it how THEY please, and if they decide to step in, they are in their rights to override the state laws.

2. Define slavery. Slavery as in, a form of indentured servitude to pay off a crime or debt, for a limited amount of time as its proscribed in the Bible, I favor it.

1. thralldom, enthrallment. Slavery, bondage, servitude refer to involuntary subjection to another or others. Slavery emphasizes the idea of complete ownership and control by a master

Slavery of any type is wrong, regardless of it's form or intention.

I'm not saying, "Work them 16 hours a day like animals!" They'd work a normal amount, and, although not paid (Hence the punishment) they would be given enough food and a (Reletively) decent place to sleep. We wouldn't beat them as punishment, and it would be unrelated to race (If someone from Canada was an illega we'd do the same thing.)

Still involuntary. If you really have a problem with them, deport them, why are you insisting on slavery? Anyways, this treatment of them would still be funded by taxpayer dollars, so once again, why bother wasting taxpayers' dollars when you can just deport them?

3. I know this, but I'm referring to the party. Democrats (As a whole) support illegal immigrants to a certain degree. Similar to how they support abortions and gay marriage, not all of them do, but their party platform does.

[Citation Needed]

4. The rest of California should form a new state then. What right do those two cities have to run all California? (The same reason liberals in a few cities have the right to run the United States;))

It's been a dream of every republican since California turned democrat. And it's still a majority, the fact of the matter is that most of the people in California live in those two areas, so it's the right of the people that these two METROPOLITAN AREAS (note: not cities, as the Bay Area encompasses 3 major cities and many more suburbs and smaller cities), as a majority determine the will of the people therein. And furthermore, the California governmental system is so screwed up nothing really gets done anyways.

And as Ajidica said, California illegalized Gay Marriage, has a Conservative Governor, and will probably vote down the proposed legalization of marijuana. Not exactly the bastion of liberalism that you're making it out to be. Instead, turn to New York, or Massachusetts, which operate similarly to California in that the populous Left wing major cities override the less populous conservative rural areas.

5. Before I give you my answer, be aware, you don't think a baby is a life. While I disagree and think the thought (Not you yourself) is barbaric, for now, I'm going to respect the view.

What? I never said a baby wasn't alive, rather, that early stage fetuses are not, at least not in the definition you are using.

I ask you this, IF you considered the baby a life, a fully living being, how would you answer the question.

This is irrelevant as I do consider a baby a life. And you are missing the point.

Furthermore, what's the point of this hypothetical? I know you disagree with me because you disagree with me, but would you agree with me if you agreed with me?

Spoiler :
My answer is no, I do not support it. In either case.


But that makes no sense. If you oppose abortion on the idea that life is precious, and therefore should be preserved, why would you condemn a mother to death? Especially in circumstances where giving birth would take both lives? That sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

And what about cases of incestuous rape?

I have no problem with people who disagree with the idea of abortion, as I was myself for a time conflicted on the matter, but people who disagree with abortion in the cases
of incestuous rape or in the event that the mother's life is endangered by giving birth I find rather abhorrent.

Finally, what business have you telling a woman what they can or cannot do with their body? You hardly sound like a libertarian to me.

Someone I know who supports its LEGALITY (But not morality) when the mother's life is in danger, said this about the issue "What if the mother needs heart surgery to survive, but it will kill the baby?" I say, in this case, no matter what you do, you aren't killing anyone, but you are letting someone die (I believe God can save them.) In this case, while I don't like it, the mother would have to be allowed to choose to get the surgery.

How is the mother's life being threatened in the case of birth any different from the hypothetical above?

However, actually KILLING the baby to save yourself is just as murderous as any other form of abortion (Though maybe more forgivable.)

So...you don't think of every innocent life as being precious...

PS On this point: I'll accept the liberal rank and file accepts the baby isn't a life, but the abortion doctors know the truth. In the words of one "I have killed a million babies and I consider it my passion."

[Citation Needed]

Next time you quote someone, do us all a favor. Cite the person who said/wrote the quote and where and when s/he said it. It'll save us all a lot of trouble, and cut down on spam and crossposts.

6. I respect the leaders of this country in the sense that I will obey their laws (Unless my state mans up and nullifys them, which my state, New York Will not, though I hope my former state Florida will.) However, I have no respect for Obama in the true sense, not because he's a liberal, but because he's corrupt to the core. For instance, despite us being opposites on nearly everything we stand for, I have quite a bit of respect to you based on your general respectful tone on the forums and you genuinely believing what you say. Unfortunately, the democrats have deceived you.

So...you're not really proud to be an American, ok.
 
Why do you hate Obama, Domination? Simple question. Also he really isn't a socialist.
 
Or we could simply take the common sense approach and eventually make them all citizens - Forma

There's nothing common sense about this approach. I mean, unless your goal is to get a whole bunch of new voters...
 
HEY DOMINATION!!!!!!!

Nice to see you again, bro!!! Today I have a story for you into the history of modern western republics!!!

Since the enlightenment, western thinkers have placed an increasing value of the lives and freedoms of the individual!!! Writers like John Locke or Voltaire were firm proponents of personal liberty and limited government!!! Likewise early political economists like Adam Smith analyzed the burgeoning commercial society and realized that the acts of individuals can act in the advantage of society of a whole!!! In the infant United States, the founding fathers were fond of the social contract theory championed by Locke (that is the idea that people and the government negotiate the government's rights and responsibilities) and also borrowed from the ongoing theme of what is called limited government!!!

Limited government is the idea that, although governments exercise authority in an area, there are somethings that are off limits to it!!! Here in the United States, we are given insurances of rights in our Constitution!!! These include the right to practice our own choice of religion, the right to petition the government, the right to speak and assemble, the right to own firearms, and one of the most important: the right to not be subject to cruel and unusual punishment!!!

In constitutional law, "strict-constitutionalists" and proponents of the "living document" may debate over what precisely the abolition of "cruel and unusual" may mean, but I can tell you one thing: in a republic of limited government it does not mean that execution or forced labor for non-felony offenses is permissible!!!

Now please note that your fetishizing of "states' rights" has come at odds with individual rights (which would be far more important to people like Locke, Smith, and Voltaire)!!! In saying that states can hypothetically choose to do as they wish to with their residents, their residents have no freedoms assure to them and are simply the government's playthings!!! Please remember that state governments are governments too and that if you were a libertarian (which you are not in the least) but if you were, you would favor the liberty of the individual over the ability of the state to take liberties with its people!!!

I also noticed that you invoked "nullification" in this thread!!! You seem to have forgotten that nullification is a blatantly unconstitutional abuse of power that has been illegal, or rather nonexistent, since our republic's inception!!! Please refer to my previous post here for further contemplation!!!
 
There's nothing common sense about this approach. I mean, unless your goal is to get a whole bunch of new voters...
Now why would Republicans possibly object to this group ever becoming voters? People they have openly advocated persecuting for so long while showing complete disregard for their plight. Disenfrachising those who are the victims of their draconian policies has always been a hallmark of the conservatives, especially in the South. Just look at the enmity directed towards ACORN for merely trying to register more poor blacks to vote.

But I think it's too late to think about that quite obvious consequence to these policies towards specific ethnic groups. The recent absurdities in Arizona has already caused many of the conservative American Latinos to change their minds about supporting people who racially profile Latinos, and even engage in corrupt practices, in their haste to provide supposed "law and order" for conservative whites. At this rate, it won't be long before Latinos become the next block of almost-completely-all Democrats, just like the blacks.
 
Or we could simply take the common sense approach and eventually make them all citizens. You can't very well arrest and imprison someone for merely hiring someone who is Latino to cut your grass.

That's the common sense approach?! You want to reward someone who broke into our country (and breaking our laws) with citizenship? What about the people in Gantanamo Bay? Should we give them citizenship?
 
That's the common sense approach?! You want to reward someone who broke into our country (and breaking our laws) with citizenship? What about the people in Gantanamo Bay? Should we give them citizenship?
You mean the vast majority who were competely innocent, but we tortured and even killed them anyway? Those "people" at Gitmo? No, I doubt the ones who are still alive are very likely to vote Republican either. Good analogy.
 
Now why would Republicans possibly object to this group ever becoming voters? - Forma

Depends on who you are talking about. If you're talking about general people, it's because they have principles and understand that the immigration process is a process that extends beyond the physical ability to run, jump, or swim into this country for a reason. If you're talking about politicians, it's because they're not currently in power and lack the ability to bait current illegals over to their side by granting them citizenship.

People they have openly advocated persecuting for so long while showing complete disregard for their plight. Disenfrachising those who are the victims of their draconian policies has always been a hallmark of the conservatives, especially in the South. Just look at the enmity directed towards ACORN for merely trying to register more poor blacks to vote. - Forma

Could you string together more strawmen in a row? They want them persecuted and deported for violating our constitution, our borders, and our laws. And there is nothing Draconian about upholding those laws. Nor is there any connection between people violating those laws and having empathy for their situations in their homelands. Common sense should be enough to tell anyone that we cannot have open borders for anybody in the world that's had a hard life. But apparently not to you. People aren't upset about ACORN for registering black people. People are upset about ACORN registering people to vote for one party over the other while accepting federal funds. People are upset about ACORN for encouraging illegal activities. People are upset about ACORN for voter registration fraud. Nobody cares about registering black people to vote.

But I think it's too late to think about that quite obvious consequence to these policies towards specific ethnic groups. The recent absurdities in Arizona has already caused many of the conservative American Latinos to change their minds about supporting people who racially profile Latinos, and even engage in corrupt practices, in their haste to provide supposed "law and order" for conservative whites. At this rate, it won't be long before Latinos become the next block of almost-completely-all Democrats, just like the blacks. - Forma

Well, when you have the education system, the media, and our own polity distorting the law, it will no doubt have the power to corrupt the minds of Hispanic people. But that doesn't matter, and anybody with principles will be able to see through the translucent bullcrap about this law. There's nothing racist, there's nothing draconian, there's no profiling to be found within its language. The only you arrive at that conclusion is when you're hell bent on a particular political agenda and looking to shamlessly bait a certain group of people into voting or supporting said political agenda.

If Hispanic citizens do not want to support laws that uphold a legal immigration process, that's fine. Who needs them? It's clearly not a position built upon principle. Legal immigrants from Latin America should be the LAST people who would want amnesty. Why in the hell would you struggle through years of paperwork, dealing with consulates and the state department, pay the fees, take the exams, go through the background checks, and all the other things that a good immigration system will do, and just allow millions of people who violated the law to get the same privileges and status as you?
 
No, the federal government has the right to punish it how THEY please, and if they decide to step in, they are in their rights to override the state laws.


Citation needed. Read the 10th amendment.

Slavery of any type is wrong, regardless of it's form or intention.

I don't agree then. I would call it forcing them to work as punishment for a crime. And if they don't do it in jails, they should.

Still involuntary. If you really have a problem with them, deport them, why are you insisting on slavery? Anyways, this treatment of them would still be funded by taxpayer dollars, so once again, why bother wasting taxpayers' dollars when you can just deport them?

Well, it would make them useful to society. Now, I'm not saying they should necessarily do this, but just putting them where they should be isn't a punishment enough.




[Citation Needed]


I don't remember who said it, but someone did, I know that. I remember someone did.

It's been a dream of every republican since California turned democrat. And it's still a majority, the fact of the matter is that most of the people in California live in those two areas, so it's the right of the people that these two METROPOLITAN AREAS (note: not cities, as the Bay Area encompasses 3 major cities and many more suburbs and smaller cities), as a majority determine the will of the people therein. And furthermore, the California governmental system is so screwed up nothing really gets done anyways.

Then California, as a majority, is liberal.

And as Ajidica said, California illegalized Gay Marriage, has a Conservative Governor, and will probably vote down the proposed legalization of marijuana. Not exactly the bastion of liberalism that you're making it out to be. Instead, turn to New York, or Massachusetts, which operate similarly to California in that the populous Left wing major cities override the less populous conservative rural areas.

I don't know a thing about Arnold Schortzinator, but I doubt I'd call him conservative at all, and someone I know who does know what he stands for said he isn't conservative.

What? I never said a baby wasn't alive, rather, that early stage fetuses are not, at least not in the definition you are using.

Ok, if you believed a feotus was alive, what would your opinion be on the issue?

Spoiler :
This is irrelevant as I do consider a baby a life. And you are missing the point.

Furthermore, what's the point of this hypothetical? I know you disagree with me because you disagree with me, but would you agree with me if you agreed with me?


Huh?

But that makes no sense. If you oppose abortion on the idea that life is precious, and therefore should be preserved, why would you condemn a mother to death? Especially in circumstances where giving birth would take both lives? That sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

Its not even about the fact that life is precious, but the
fact that the feotus did nothing deserving of death. The mother who aborted her did.
And what about cases of incestuous rape?

Oh, I just got raped, forget the rapist he can just rot in jail 20-25 years, but the baby who did nothing wrong, he surely deserves to die!:goodjob:

(NOTE: the above was sarcasm, and was both meant to mean the rapist should die and that the child should not.)
I have no problem with people who disagree with the idea of abortion, as I was myself for a time conflicted on the matter, but people who disagree with abortion in the cases
of incestuous rape or in the event that the mother's life is endangered by giving birth I find rather abhorrent.

I find allowing it in any case abhorrent. Neither case is the baby's fault, why should the baby lose the chance to live?

Finally, what business have you telling a woman what they can or cannot do with their body? You hardly sound like a libertarian to me.

Libertarianism is the precept that someone can do whatever they please so long as that does not infringe upon the rights of someone else! As I consider the baby a life, that fits.



How is the mother's life being threatened in the case of birth any different from the hypothetical above?

I still don't agree with it, but in that case someone is going to die, but neither way are you actually committing the killing. In any case of actual abortion, even when the mother's life is threatened, you are killing a baby.

So...you're not really proud to be an American, ok.

I am absolutely not! I am not proud to be a citizen of a country that has killed more people then Hitler's Germany, allows lazy people to take from those who work hard, and does not follow their own second amendment!

Still we are the most right-wing nation on Earth (That I know of.) We still have hope to become a true right wing nation again.

Now, I ask you (And any other socialist) why don't you move to Europe? They are much closer to what you want then here is?
 
You mean the vast majority who were competely innocent, but we tortured and even killed them anyway? Those "people" at Gitmo? No, I doubt the ones who are still alive are very likely to vote Republican either. Good analogy.

Still, why do you want law breakers who don't have a place here to have citizenship?
 
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