Civilization V: Brave New World Fall Patch Public Beta

I don't see what the problem is then. He was complaining that the change made tall more effective (which he objected to because going tall is very easy), and I argued that Wide was still more effective, just not indisputably so if you do it brainlessly (as with ICS).
Another poster argued that it would make the game "easier" to make wide empires more effective and I thought you were expounding upon that.
I don't think you understand words. Increasing science cost per city favors empires that build up their cities and put thought into where they settle each city, which Tall empires do as a goal, rather than favoring the ICS/Super Wide tactic of plopping new cities anywhere, just because each new city grows faster than already-tall cities. Increasing science cost per point of population nerfs all science, for tall and for wide, but still favors wide empires unfairly, because even if they have diminishing returns on science, they still have more science. Increasing the science cost per city has a completely different effect on the game than increasing science penalty for every point of population, and the latter is not a fun game mechanic. The former at least involves a choice, but the latter just makes science get more frustrating the longer you play.
Right, and increasing science cost per population favors wide empires who can build more Universities and Research Labs that give flat science boosts. It also involves a choice. Both are dumb mechanics though; if tall empires need a boost to science it should be done by giving tall empires a boost to science, not by arbitrarily nerfing wide empires.
 
Diminishing returns on the only mechanic that grants science in the first place also makes it very difficult to get a tech lead, or catch up from a tech deficit. It effectively breaks the entire science game. It's a bad idea. Period.

Beside all the game balance aspects you describe, it wouldn't even make sense. Right now the penalty is for dispersion/lack of focus. Some scientific opportunities gets lost or wasted because the best minds in your nation are scattered all over the place instead of pooling their efforts in one or very few places, making it harder (or longer, eg: a team of astronomers at the mountain university of X need to travel half a continent to come work with your seamen/admirals in a coastal city) to work together on discoveries as well as projects like forming a National College, lengthening communications between universities etc. To balance these problems you need a larger investment in sciences (reflected by all the extra buildings needed to keep up with tall civs) but if you succeed, over time, and grow your population from which you draw can scientists/scholars, you end up stronger in sciences than a tall civ because what you lose from lack of efficiency/focus you more than regain in the total amount of research produced.

Penalizing population growth would go against all logic. In a tall civ your scientific/educational efforts are focused, all your scholars work together in a few larger and more multidisciplinary universities (with easy access to your arsenal, workshop etc.), can collaborate and access and teach each other's research faster, and a larger population in such conditions means a much larger pool of talent to draw from...

Historical examples are there to support it, for instance in the Renaissance Venice put all its scholarly efforts (and substantial financial means) into a single university at Padua which was for quite some time the most prestigious and productive in Europe, and other prestigious universities were in small principalities in which a ruler focused his efforts. That model didn't survive the arrival or faster/safer means of travel and communications (and the regrouping of small principalities into larger nations, like Germany). Eventually it's "wider" nations like France/England that took the lead, and still later the US, Russia etc.
 
Just played the beta, significantly slower. Played as America long enough to get minutemen, got to say that Minutemen are pretty cool now with the Pracinha promotion, I started a war just to try it out and it was fun. That promotion coupled with Minuteman inherent bonuses and the +1 sight makes for a fun war, you can spot the weakened units and swoop in with Minutemen for the kill and golden age counter bonus.

The only downside I saw was the slow turn times.

Further, if it matters for balance, I had a three-salt start in a quick game with the Celts, and that Earth Mother bonus is ridiculously powerful (as if Salt and Iron weren't amazing already!). I understand not all pantheons are created equal (rewards those who work for it) but still...
 
Right, and increasing science cost per population favors wide empires who can build more Universities and Research Labs that give flat science boosts. It also involves a choice. Both are dumb mechanics though; if tall empires need a boost to science it should be done by giving tall empires a boost to science, not by arbitrarily nerfing wide empires.

It's not a choice if it's strictly better to have an empire with more cities to build science buildings in as opposed to tall cities with high population to make those fewer science buildings more powerful. The entire bonus that tall empires get from Tradition and Freedom is a massive food boost, because in order to catch up with wide empires on science, you have to get huge cities. Even with the science penalty, tall empires still have less effective science than wide empires (don't forget, even a tall empire has a small science penalty because they have more than one city). If you cause population to work against science, you instantly turn Tradition into the worst tree in the game, because you want your population to stay small. There's no choice involved in that.

The fact of the matter is, Wide empires needed the nerf; it wasn't arbitrary. When more pop = more science, and smaller cities grow faster than tall cities, and each different city grows simultaneously, wide empires simply have more science... and more production, more resources, more gold, more luxes, and so on. The only thing they arguably have less of is happiness, but with ideologies giving free happiness to already-necessary buildings, wide empires have never been stronger. The nerf needed to happen. You might argue that trade routes removed their gold advantage, but if you really think that, you haven't tried trading post spam with the full commerce tree on a wide empire. Once you do, you'll want to nerf commerce. You can have the largest army in the game on top of so much income that you don't even need trade routes anymore, you can set them all to internal and make your cities huge... and since it reduces the upkeep for roads, city connections are also more effective.

Wide was always strictly better, the problem is that going wide was not limited by effectiveness, but by the fact that the AI often settles the good land so quickly that you often don't have more than 4 viable city locations without going to war. It's "harder" to go wide because you can't just sit there and have it happen on high difficulty, the AI forces you to get your hands dirty. That's why when you do it right, you're rewarded handsomely... prior to BNW, too handsomely. Look at this thread from before BNW, hell, before even GNK, offering ways to nerf wide empires. Notice how severe some of the OP's suggestions are, and notice how everyone loves the ideas, because it was seen as necessary. Notice how quickly the BNW science penalty gets suggested, except their proposition is even more severe: 5% per city... per era. Be glad we didn't get that one.

You're still rewarded very handsomely for going wide in BNW. The science penalty now correctly nerfs people plopping cities anywhere they want, but as long as you build your cities up with science buildings and food, which is easier than ever with internal trades (which Order is getting a buff to in the fall patch), your science is still better the wider you are. That's not an arbitrary nerf, that's how the game should work.
 
Wide SHOULD be strictly better. You're more spread out, your maintenance costs are higher, and you have more potential war fronts to worry about. If wide and tall are equally good at all things, then that makes tall strictly better because wide has other disadvantages that tall doesn't. The only thing that needed a nerf was ICS, which has taken a hit with the nerf, but unfortunately so has non-ICS wide.
 
Wide SHOULD be strictly better. You're more spread out, your maintenance costs are higher, and you have more potential war fronts to worry about. If wide and tall are equally good at all things, then that makes tall strictly better because wide has other disadvantages that tall doesn't. The only thing that needed a nerf was ICS, which has taken a hit with the nerf, but unfortunately so has non-ICS wide.

If Wide is strictly better, then it's the goal, not an option. The fact that Tradition/Freedom exist means Tall is meant to be an option. Is it less effective? "It Depends" -- the most important two words every Civ veteran learns.

Non-ICS Wide has barely taken a nerf. If you have 10 cities, you only need 30% more science to break exactly even with a 4-city empire. You have more than twice as many cities, of course you'll have more than 30% more science. If you don't, you're not playing wide, you're playing ICS. Wide took collateral damage from the nerf, yes, but so did tall. Even a 4-city empire has a 20% science penalty. Yes, the 50% looks scary when you have 10 cities, but once again... you have 10 freaking cities! How do you not have at least twice as many Beakers? You'll easily have more than double, since food ships are SO powerful, even moreso with Order/Iron Curtain. Growing new/conquered cities to huge sizes has never been easier.

The truth is, Wide got far more buffs than nerfs in BNW. Warmongering is getting buffed in the fall patch, which will make Wide even stronger. All Wide really got as a nerf was a meager science penalty. That was enough to make some people very angry, but those people are missing the big picture entirely.
 
Moderator Action: Please take the "wide vs. tall" debate to another thread. This thread is for specific feedback on the Patch Beta. Thanks!
 
Yes, the idea was to encourage expansion, but at a slow, systematic rate. This is also true in how the AI deals with diplomacy. If you expand to 8 cities right away, not only will you be swimming in unhappiness, but the AI will automatically declare war for expanding too quickly. In contrast, if you expanded up to 8 cities over the course of the game, the AI will remain on good terms. (At least as far as expanding too rapidly, they may DoW for other reasons).

Edit: Sorry Browd. Posted before I saw your message. You can delete if you want.
 
Moderator Action: Please take the "wide vs. tall" debate to another thread. This thread is for specific feedback on the Patch Beta. Thanks!

Understood. Sorry.

On that note, while I do like the changes to Germany, I think that their Barbarian conversion rate should be set to 75%, rather than 67%. Yes, it's highly useful if you get lucky, but it feels slightly underwhelming on repeat attempts, because sometimes you don't get lucky. 67% is a great step in the right direction, but IMO, ever so slightly not enough.
 
Been playing some multiplayer after BNW in Hybrid mode. There seemed to occur some strange situations when someone declared war on some other player which was already at war. For some reason when adding a new player to the "turn-based-rotation" one player ended up getting to do a "double-turn" on the first rotation. Does anyone know the algorithm for this and if it is "working as intended"?
 
Just commenting that after the patch update, turn times have sped up again. Whatever they did must have fixed it.
 
Has AI airplane rebasing been addressed in general, or JUST regarding cities being razed?

The the AI moves planes around (often to and from the same city) for no reason, and takes forever doing it. It really makes post-flight AI turns drag on and on. Even turning on quick-move animations doesn't fix this =/
 
Are Triremes supposed to be able to move onto ocean tiles in friendly territory (even pre-Astronomy)?
 
Has AI airplane rebasing been addressed in general, or JUST regarding cities being razed?

The the AI moves planes around (often to and from the same city) for no reason, and takes forever doing it. It really makes post-flight AI turns drag on and on. Even turning on quick-move animations doesn't fix this =/

QFT. Just fixing this would speed up late game turn times tremendously. Had one game where AI moved 24 air units back-and-forth between 2 cities for what seemed like 50 turns...
 
I have played with the patch a little bit, and I can confirm that the booting up time of the game has increased. I have tried starting the game without the patch 5 times, and with the patch another 5. The time it takes without is about 1:30 minutes, whereas with the patch, it's about 2:05 minutes. (From the first logo to the main menu). Can anyone confirm this as well?
 
Are Triremes supposed to be able to move onto ocean tiles in friendly territory (even pre-Astronomy)?

As long as the ocean tiles are inside your culture borders, your triremes (and other non-ocean-going vessels and embarked units) can enter those ocean tiles pre-Astronomy. Not a Beta change.
 
I have played with the patch a little bit, and I can confirm that the booting up time of the game has increased. I have tried starting the game without the patch 5 times, and with the patch another 5. The time it takes without is about 1:30 minutes, whereas with the patch, it's about 2:05 minutes. (From the first logo to the main menu). Can anyone confirm this as well?

Second here, it's extremly long, very long, longer than it should be.
 
I'm trying to set up a dedicated pitboss server on a remote machine (Win 7 on a Vmware vSphere VM) but then realized the civ sdk wants to start a directx full screen app. Why is that?

DirectX over RDP is not possible. I tried VNC and Teamviewer, both didn't work. The app just crahes after letting me have a glimpse at some window frame. :mad:

Can I get this setup running or not? Why can't there just be a down-to-earth (aka "ugly") window mode like in civ4? :rolleyes:

Another thing: We played around setting up a dedicated pitboss server in one LAN behind a dsl wan connection. We used two computers, server did start. But the second client in same LAN could not connect. We didn't have much time to dig in this, though.

Any others experiencing these problems? Maybe have a solution?

Greetings
Jensen
 
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