Tomatekh's Historical Religion Mods

Leugi said:

Well it's a deserving spot too, the mod is a nice way of adding up to the whole inmersion.

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Thanks, that means a lot.

I have to do another update for BNW to add the Shoshone religion (It really came out of left field. I had the Iroquois and Sioux from the beginning and added the Pueblo and Mississippi last patch. I thought I had safely covered the major NA groups they might add).

I want to add something for Harappa (which might be difficult giving the amount of info).

I also want to add Mapuche religion (I've been reading up on them since you announced your mod), but I'm not sure what to call it.

Also, when I do the next update I'll finally change the name of Andeanism (probably to Pachism as you suggested).

Tomatekh said:

Thanks, that means a lot.

I have to do another update for BNW to add the Shoshone religion (It really came out of left field. I had the Iroquois and Sioux from the beginning and added the Pueblo and Mississippi last patch. I thought I had safely covered the major NA groups they might add).

I want to add something for Harappa (which might be difficult giving the amount of info).

I also want to add Mapuche religion (I've been reading up on them since you announced your mod), but I'm not sure what to call it.

Also, when I do the next update I'll finally change the name of Andeanism (probably to Pachism as you suggested).

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Hmn... Maybe use the word Ngen somehow for the Mapuche, as it seems, the Ngen are the primordial spirits of nature, and even the word of "God" for Mapuche (which seems it had to be created after the colony) is Ngünechen, and the wise men who "are in contact with the Ngen" are called Ngenpin.

So, Ngen directly could work, and maybe Ngenism.

Okay, for BNW, I should have a compatibility update for the Goths, Sumer, Historical Religions, and Great Prophet Names on day one. Furthermore, I believe I can make the Goths and Sumer mods work in both G&K and BNW, so you won't need to download a separate mod, just update the existing one. (Coincidentally, Sumer no longer uses a dummy building as I've tweaked its ability).

All my religion mods should be compatible with BNW even without an update (again simply upgrade). However, I added the preferred religion definitions for the new civilizations. Also, as the Christian Schisms are now part of the base game, I'll only be maintaining a combined version (no Schisms add-on). If you want to remove the schisms, you'll have to comment them out of the XML. I will be actually updating this mod when I have time, to add Shoshone, Harappan, and Mapuche religion. In the future I will also be releasing more specialized denomination packs (Hindu denominations, Buddhist, Mesopotamian, etc.) For now, the Shoshone will choose Sioux religion. Prophet Names is just getting a superficial update to notify that its compatible with both expansions.

That's the best I can do for now with my schedule. All four required very minimum updates. All the rest of my mods will have to wait till sometime in August for a formal BNW update. Sorry.

The update might be delayed a bit as BNW seems to have changed the religion ordering system, apparently to alphabetical in the files but there must be some other rule governing the default religions.

The mods still work, just the religion order will be messed up in BNW games.

Okay, I figured it out.

The game now organizes religions based on the alphabetical order of the TXT_KEY. I don't mean the text linked to the TXT_KEY, I mean the actual TXT_KEY (which I assume now means that religion order is all messed up if you play the game in a language other than English).

Anyway, my historical religions and great prophet names have been "updated" for BNW. This is not the actual content update, which I will do later, so the Shoshone use Sioux religion now for default.

Also, I will update the Preferred Religions version soon when I have time.

This is a really nice mod! I've got three small suggestions:

- Rename "Coptic Christianity" to "Oriental Orthodoxy" -- the Civilopedia uses the latter term, plus "Coptic" seems to refer to the Egyptian rather than the Ethiopian branch of Oriental Orthodoxy

- Rename "Roman Catholicism" to "Catholicism" -- shorter, and no change from the unmodded game

- For the upcoming update to "Preferred Religions", consider to add (or rather not to remove) Sikhism -- you also didn't remove Judaism which has less followers than Sikishm

lockstep said:

- Rename "Roman Catholicism" to "Catholicism" -- shorter, and no change from the unmodded game

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I second that. Easier to follow.

lockstep said:

- Rename "Coptic Christianity" to "Oriental Orthodoxy" -- the Civilopedia uses the latter term, plus "Coptic" seems to refer to the Egyptian rather than the Ethiopian branch of Oriental Orthodoxy

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I changed it primarily because people constantly get confused that Oriental Orthodoxy, which technically means 'eastern Orthodoxy', isn't the same thing as 'Eastern Orthodoxy'.

Ethiopia's branch only became hierarchically independent in 1950, which means for most of its history (and for while Haile Selassie ruled) Ethiopia was still officially 'Coptic Orthodox'. Also, Oriental Orthodoxy originated from the Coptic Church and, while all the branches have an independent hierarchy, most still recognize the pope of Alexandria. So it's still technically correct, though less common today, to use Coptic to refer to Oriental Orthodoxy as a whole. (In the same way a country can be Roman Catholic without being Roman).

I figured it would be less confusing nomenclature than the whole Oriental = eastern thing, especially as the base game mistakenly labels Ethiopia as Eastern Orthodox.

I can also use Miaphysitism, (they are known as the Miaphysite Churches, as Miaphysitism is one of their primary beliefs). However, I figured a) most people wouldn't recognize the word, and b) if they didn't look it up or in the civlopedia they probably wouldn't even think Miaphysitism was a denomination of Christianity in the game.

lockstep said:

- Rename "Roman Catholicism" to "Catholicism" -- shorter, and no change from the unmodded game

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janboruta said:

I second that. Easier to follow.

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I didn't even realize the unmodded game called it "Catholicism". My TXT_KEYS were copied from the original Into the Renaissance scenario which called it "Roman Catholicism". I'll have it match the base game in the next update. (Though 'Catholicism' is also used by other denominations besides Roman Catholicism, so it is technically less correct, but the real world also doesn't have Augustus as your neighbor founding 'Roman' Hellenism or 'Roman' Judaism or whatever).

lockstep said:

- For the upcoming update to "Preferred Religions", consider to add (or rather not to remove) Sikhism -- you also didn't remove Judaism which has less followers than Sikishm

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That was done in the original to keep the number of added religions even to the number of official religions (so I wouldn't suddenly have added more religions than what was left in the base game in a mod that was meant to cut down on the number of religions). Judaism was kept over Sikhism because it was more likely to be used by a civ mod than Sikishm. The original concern is not an issue with the BNW version as I need to add Zulu religion to the preferred mod anyway, so Sikhism wouldn't be cut.

Tomatekh said:

I changed it primarily because people constantly get confused that Oriental Orthodoxy, which technically means 'eastern Orthodoxy', is the same thing as 'Eastern Orthodoxy'.

[...]

I can also use Miaphysitism, (they are known as the Miaphysite Churches, as Miaphysitism is one of their primary beliefs). However, I figured a) most people wouldn't recognize the word, and b) if they didn't look it up or in the civlopedia they probably wouldn't even think Miaphysitism was a denomination of Christianity in the game.

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I had overlooked the potential confusion between "Eastern" and "Oriental" Orthodoxy. So "Coptic Christianity" or perhaps "Coptic Orthodoxy" is fine -- the latter would clarify why "Eastern Orthodoxy" isn't simply called "Orthodoxy". And you're right, "Miaphysitism" is a bad idea.

That was done in the original to keep the number of added religions even to the number of official religions (so I wouldn't suddenly have added more religions than what was left in the base game in a mod that was meant to cut down on the number of religions). Judaism was kept over Sikhism because it was more likely to be used by a civ mod than Sikishm. The original concern is not an issue with the BNW version as I need to add Zulu religion to the preferred mod anyway, so Sikhism wouldn't be cut.

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As there are now 13 religions in the base game and (assuming you're not splitting Islam) 26 religions in the upcoming "Preferred Religions" update, the number of added religions is still even. ;-)

Tomatekh said:

I also want to add Mapuche religion (I've been reading up on them since you announced your mod), but I'm not sure what to call it.

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So... if you're still interested on doing that, maybe you could call it "Wiltran Mapu" (The Four places, its the way they describe the world in their cosmovision) And, if you do... could you call it

RELIGION_MAPUCHE_MOD

Please? So my Mapuche Mod will go for that once you release the next version (I don't care them choosing randomly if there's no other option)

Leugi said:

So... if you're still interested on doing that, maybe you could call it "Wiltran Mapu" (The Four places, its the way they describe the world in their cosmovision) And, if you do... could you call it

RELIGION_MAPUCHE_MOD

Please? So my Mapuche Mod will go for that once you release the next version (I don't care them choosing randomly if there's no other option)

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Is there still time for you to change it to RELIGION_WILTRAN_MAPU in your mod?

BNW changed how the game organizes religion in game to this very counter-intuitive alphabetical order based on the TXT_KEYS (instead of the text linked to the TXT_KEYS). So I've had to re-name all the xml entries to their names instead of their grouping.

If you can't change it in your mod, and this goes for anyone else as well, if you want I can set a custom civ as a reference in my mod and then have the historical religions mod itself define the religious preference. This frees up if you want to give them an officially included religious preference in the base mod but also allows the custom historical religion if used with my mod.

Also, is the best idea for the Mapuche religion icon basically their circle-cross-cosmos symbol thing (as seen on their flag)? If so, I'll be sure to stylize it in a way that it looks distinct from the civ icon you made for them.

Also, just an update, I should have the next version of my historical religions mod by the end of the month.

It will add 5-6 new religions: Shoshone, Harappa, Mapuche, Shona, and Akan religions.

The 6th religion is potentially Baha'i. I'm going back and forth about including Baha'i. 1) There's already a perfectly fine standalone Baha'i mod (though I feel people like to load as few mods as possible). 2) My main concern, though, is that the mod is supposed to really only include pre-modern or indigenous religions and Baha'i was founded in the late 19th century.

However, Baha'i is really the last significantly followed religion to include in the mod with about ~8 million follows (the same as Jainism). Everything after drops to at most 1-2 million, but usually less than a million followers.

I also know some people are saying, "6 more religions!" That I'm overcrowding and already overcrowded mod. Buuuuut, the purpose of the mod was never necessarily for everyone to use as is. The religion entries are all nicely commented in the XML which is very easy to edit/delete an entry. My idea has always been to provide as many options as possible and then people could edit it down to the selection they want. I know some people don't know how to edit XML or maybe just don't want to, which is why I also will be uploading the new "Too Many Religions!" version at the same time as my update which only includes the bare minimum of new religions which are preferred in game.

Also, I can very well see the next update being the last content update for the mod. The mod will basically cover almost every potential mod civ area except maybe the Native American Northwest? My plan for the future is to release separate denomination packs. The main mod will keep the generalized religions (like the base game does except with Christianity) and then I will have separate packs which can be used in conjunction with this mod or standalone which will further break down the generalized group religions. So there will be a Hindu pack that splits Hindu into Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism, and Smartism, etc. etc. This way I can add further regional diversity without complicating the base mod.

I already have an Islam denomination pack on Steam (an update to my old Islam Schisms mod). If used with my Historical Religions mod it adds Ibadi to the already included Sunni and Shia. If used standalone, it splits Islam into Sunni, Shia, Ibadi. (The Islam denomination pack might not actually work till the update, depending on what I set the compatible version number to).

I also plan to re-write most of the civlopedia entries with the next update. Most of them are too lengthy, and some of them are haphazardly copied from random sources. I intend to make them more succinct and readable.

lockstep said:

I had overlooked the potential confusion between "Eastern" and "Oriental" Orthodoxy. So "Coptic Christianity" or perhaps "Coptic Orthodoxy" is fine -- the latter would clarify why "Eastern Orthodoxy" isn't simply called "Orthodoxy". And you're right, "Miaphysitism" is a bad idea.

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Also, I will be switching it back to Oriental Orthodoxy after all, despite any confusion with Eastern Orthodoxy. In the end Oriental Orthodoxy is the best choice of name for both Ethiopia and any Armenia civ mod (which seems to be a popular civ request).

Tomatekh said:

Is there still time for you to change it to RELIGION_WILTRAN_MAPU in your mod?

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Go ahead. I'm changing it.

Tomatekh said:

Also, is the best idea for the Mapuche religion icon basically their circle-cross-cosmos symbol thing (as seen on their flag)? If so, I'll be sure to stylize it in a way that it looks distinct from the civ icon you made for them.

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Definitively, the Kultrun's symbol (that symbol) is needed for that religion... Maybe you can make it so the fill is the oppossite of my attempt, instead of the line, use the fill.

Tomatekh said:

I also will be uploading the new "Too Many Religions!" version at the same time as my update which only includes the bare minimum of new religions which are preferred in game.

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I'm looking forward to the new version!

lockstep said:

I'm looking forward to the new version!

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Thanks, I'm sorry for the delay. I had hoped to have it out already, but my real life responsibilities have taken a little longer than originally expected.

I really enjoy using this mod, and appreciate all of your efforts to expand it and include the major schisms in Islam and Christianity.

BernardoAZ said:

I really enjoy using this mod, and appreciate all of your efforts to expand it and include the major schisms in Islam and Christianity.

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Thanks! Glad to hear it.

Okay, so I've uploaded a new version of my Historical Religions mod.

It includes 5 new religions Bahá'í, Pohakantenna (Shoshone), Onyamesom (Akan), Akatt-u (Harappan), Wiltran Mapu (Mapuche).

I've also condensed, in some cases re-written, almost every civlopedia entry.

Shona religion didn't make it in this time. I will add them when I get around to making my Great Zimbabwe mod.

I'll also probably revisit the Shoshone and Mapuche icons. The current Shoshone icon is not just a random tepee, it's actually the symbol of the Native American Church which was founded by a member of the Comanche. There is actually interesting thematic connections between the two, but they really shouldn't be equated for a few reasons. Still, specifically Shoshone religious symbols proved difficult for me to find. The Mapuche icon is more because I feel I can make it look better. I actually made a few versions of the icon. The problem is that they all sort of loose their detail at the size used for the city-bar (especially the ones that consisted of just lines). The filled ones worked better, but could look weird in the religion select screen. The one I ended up using is not actually one I made from scratch but a simple edit of an image off google. It seemed to look the best in both the religion select screen and the city-bar.

I will be uploading the new "Too Many Religions" version tomorrow.

The preferred religions edit version has been added to civfanatics and steam, see the first post for the link.

In total this version adds 13 new religions to the 13 included in the default game.