August Patch (1.0.1.383) is out!

Genghis Khan is ties with Gandhi for least deceptive!?!?!?!?
This is the guy that often back stabbed, betrayed, and disposed of many of his allies, only to gain power.
We should bring down some of the other even more and bump this number to a 7 or 8!
Who is with me?

Louis XXIV said:

I thought he hacked files or something like that.

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Could just be a cover story.

Anyway, whatever the case, I'd suggest trusting that guy's predictions for a while.

ShahJahanII:

Er, really? I was not aware of that. As far as I could tell, he always honored city surrenders provided that they surrendered within the grace period. His annihilation of subject states were always triggered by some egregious provocation, usually the refusal to honor the agreement to send troops in time of war.

Roxlimn said:

ShahJahanII:

Er, really? I was not aware of that. As far as I could tell, he always honored city surrenders provided that they surrendered within the grace period. His annihilation of subject states were always triggered by some egregious provocation, usually the refusal to honor the agreement to send troops in time of war.

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I just thought of something else, those Keshiks could be unbeatable if used by the AI the right way.

I would agree that a lot of people mistake their lack of ability to maintain proper diplomacy with their play-styles for a failing of the game. If you are an aggressive player, the AI is unlikely to have any lasting peace.

I however just finished an Immortal unintentional one-city challenge where war was declared on me exactly 3 times despite having 4 military units before cannons (which came late for me as I was culturally focused). Because I was trapped in a small corner of a Pangaea map with only one direct cultural neighbor for 180 turns of the game or so, the rest of the world left me alone.

An early declare by Hiawatha (not a direct neighbor), a late declare by Oda (after he build a city right next to me), and another declare by Hiawatha with 8 turns left on Utopia were the only wars the entire game. This was with 90% of the game played before the patch scaled down the backstabbing, a reasonably middle of the pack Bismarck as my direct neighbor, and a capital that had virtually every good Wonder.

Now this is obviously an extreme example. That doesn't mean the game isn't in need of tweaking as far as diplomacy is concerned. But to say it is impossible to maintain friendships is ignoring that there are ways to accomplish it, they just might not be practical for every difficulty level or play-style.

mercury529 said:

I would agree that a lot of people mistake their lack of ability to maintain proper diplomacy with their play-styles for a failing of the game. If you are an aggressive player, the AI is unlikely to have any lasting peace.

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I used to be able to stay relatively at peace, but since 2 patches ago (not this one, but the last bigger one) the AI just goes nuts on me. I always avoid all the things that will anger the AI and I still get attacked. I have a big army. I never, ever declare war on anyone. If I get attacked, I only fight them back enough to get an even peace. Still everyone hates me, even when I'm not the top Civ score wise. I have not played the latest patch yet though.

You could be building Wonders they want.
You could be allying City States they consider within their spheres of influence.
You could be neighbors and have fantastic land (will probably net the "they covet your lands" penalty).
You could be Friends with the wrong Civs.

Personally, I find that anywhere I found a city except in the tundra is "land they covet". Basically anything you sort of do to improve your situation is angering them. Which is realistic of a "plays to win as a human" behaviour I guess. But not very immersive.

Roxlimn said:

You could be building Wonders they want.
You could be allying City States they consider within their spheres of influence.
You could be neighbors and have fantastic land (will probably net the "they covet your lands" penalty).
You could be Friends with the wrong Civs.

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In a nutshell: If you're winning, you'll be hated. I find this pretty realistic, actually.

Diplo for me is trading resources and OB, and denouncements. The rest will be overridden by the backstab mechanic if you're leading in your game so just ignore it.

The only part of the increased aggressiviness after the big patch that bothers me are the "suicide attacks" by obviously weaker civs just to gum up the works. If they're going to DoW on you, then it should be when you're already at war; otherwise, it's pointless.

SimonL said:

Personally, I find that anywhere I found a city except in the tundra is "land they covet". Basically anything you sort of do to improve your situation is angering them. Which is realistic of a "plays to win as a human" behaviour I guess. But not very immersive.

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THIS!

And for God sake, why can't the "you're trying to win the game the same way" diplo modifier be removed? I honestly have enjoyed CiV, but diplomacy (execution notwithstanding) is just TOTALLY immersion-breaking.

SirSaab said:

THIS!

And for God sake, why can't the "you're trying to win the game the same way" diplo modifier be removed? I honestly have enjoyed CiV, but diplomacy (execution notwithstanding) is just TOTALLY immersion-breaking.

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They could just rename it...
"you're conquering too many neighbors" (domination)
"you're becoming too powerful in global politics" (diplomatic)
"your society is repugnant to us" (cultural)
"we are jealous of your technological achievement" (scientific)
"you are becoming too great"(time)

Martin Alvito said:

...the more meaningful choices we have, the better the game is. I'd argue that in an ideal balance situation no Wonder is universally worth building, but all Wonders are situationally worth building.

Hagia Sophia is clearly imbalanced right now, because you should choose to build it in every game irrespective of your strategy.

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Here, here!

Krikkitone said:

They could just rename it...
"you're conquering too many neighbors" (domination)
"you're becoming too powerful in global politics" (diplomatic)
"your society is repugnant to us" (cultural)
"we are jealous of your technological achievement" (scientific)
"you are becoming too great"(time)

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Or something I changed in my mod, "Your interests conflict with theirs!"

Good patch, I especially like the change to killing barbs near city states. Now archers and naval units can do some good in guarding a city state you want to foster relations with.

Oh and one big change that helps A LOT is that you no longer need to end your turn twice if a unit needs orders before a new turn can begin. VERY helpful thankyouthankyouthankyou!

Putmalk said:

Or something I changed in my mod, "Your interests conflict with theirs!"

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Has to be something like that. Otherwise, they'd be telling you their victory strategy.

Putmalk said:

Or something I changed in my mod, "Your interests conflict with theirs!"

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See, that would be fine. The fact that they just came right out and waved a big sign saying "hey there, yeah hi, YOU'RE IN A GAME" makes absolutely no sense to me. This isn't a Deadpool comic, it's CiV. Please allow me to be immersed.

Fluxx said:

Even though I barely understood what you meant in your Chinese, why do you think you are justified to force YOUR opinions on others and stating them as facts?

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Come on man, your statement is a copout! We all know the AI is horrible and diplomacy in the game is even worse. No one I have talked to is in the dark about this. I have wasted a lot of time and money on this game, and it is disappointing. As a consumer I made a bad choice, oh well. At least i am not nearly the only one to fall into the CiV trap. Hows that for some Chinese for ya!

A civ AI's guide to war:
1. find a reason to invade the biggest player in the game.
2. Declare war.
3. Beg for peace after one of your spearmen are killed by their GDR.

Raneman said:

A civ AI's guide to war:
1. find a reason to invade the biggest player in the game.
2. Declare war.
3. Beg for peace after one of your spearmen are killed by their GDR.

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It wouldn't be too bad if it didn't rinse and repeat constantly.

it seems to me that the biggest factor for AI declaring war is when you have an inferior military.

if you have a weak military they'll go from 'friendly' to declaring war in the same turn.

the other stuff like wonder, land, friendly with their enemies etc leads to a denouncing - but i haven't seen them lead to instant war yet.


this means that it's an extremely tough balancing act on higher difficulties to get economy going when you have to play catch up with technology and military right from the start. once you're in war you have to spend money/production on units and it really messes up your chances of winning the game.

the AI doesn't mess around when it comes to war on immortal or deity. they won't give you a fair peace treaty until you've positively neutralized their army... i've been at war with some AI civs for about 200 turns and they're still asking for 3000 gold plus resources plus a bunch of cities.