SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

AlanH

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Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 5 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
You are Temujin, Leader of the Mongolian Hordes. You have tired of fighting the Barbarians, and so this time you have decided to join them instead. You will win a glorious victory in this Monarch game, of course, but you are teamed with the Barbarians, and you have to adapt to Barbarian assets and liabilities:

  • You have no starting techs.
  • The barbs are your friends, and are fighting on your team.
  • You will benefit from the Barbarian capability to explore the world in animal and human form.
  • You can research, but you will also learn techs that the Barbarians learn.
  • .... And you start off at war with everyone on the planet except the Barbarians. You can make peace with anyone.

The Objective
This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, and the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the earliest victory date in the game.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV version 1.74, using special HoF Mod 1.74.SGOTM5.

Schedule
Start files for each team will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of July 25.

I propose that you aim to complete this game in three months, that is by the end of October 2007.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.



Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Temujin of Mongolia
Rivals - 7: China, Japan, India, Arabia, Spain, Persia and Greece
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Special, sort of a fractal archipelago
Environment - Temperate climate, medium sea level
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Normal
Barbarians - Raging, and teamed with the Mongols
Permanent Alliances - Not Enabled
City Razing - Enabled

Notes
  • Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  • Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. The number of awards will depend on the number of teams.
  • All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve victories in the least turns.
  • All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.
Please enjoy the game :)
 
EDIT: Welcome everyone to:

SGOTM5 – Murky Waters – Rules & Directives​

The following rules apply to all players in the Murky Waters SGOTM5 team (including Big Pig)

Ensure that you have read and understood the rules provided by the administrators (C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread) and try to follow any ongoing discussion at the SGOTM 05 Maintenance Thread

The next player shall post a ”got it” within 72 hours of the upload of the previous game. Else the next available player has the right to post the ”got it”. This is a rule in addition to the guideline in the C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread. To ensure a smooth handover, please post the ”got it” within 48 hours. The rest of the team needs the in between 24 hours to solve whos next. It’s also good practice to wait 24 hours after the ”got it” before you play. Else, the difference in time zones and busy work days may prevent players to post useful advice. We aim to play two turn sets / week.

No-one is forced to play a turn set. You don’t need to announce the reason for skipping a turn set. Any players can swap turn sets. Please post as quick as possible to reduce unneccesary confusion and delays.

Please use smilies and emotes in your posts as much as possible. Jokes, humour, sarcasm and offensive language can and will be misinterpreted. Remember that written text is a poor method to convey feelings. Several of us are not native to the English language (LC for example use American English). The differences in culture is also a source for misunderstanding. If you get upset by a post, please wait a few hours before you respond. With this in mind I would like to encourage all and everyone to trash talk to your hearts content, particularly when Gnejs (aka Mr UN) screws up.

Don’t be afraid to post things that may appear stupid or evident. Each player have strengths and weaknesses. There are numerous examples in the WSGOTM4 thread when the most simple rule has been unknown to several of us (such as the difference between peace treaty and cease fire). Don’t be afraid that other members will think you are stupid. As a captain, I am obliged to post the most stupid questions to ensure that the rest of the team appear brighter.

Issues where we cannot reach concensus is resolved by the active player. If you run into a situation where you need advice, please upload the save and let the rest of us take a look. Or post a quick request for advice. It’s better to delay the game a day than build the Globe Theatre in the wrong city :blush: Don’t be afraid making mistaks though. We all screw up once in a while (some of us more often than others though :shifty: )

Don’t promote units until they are close to action (unless the promotion increases movement). If you are unsure of suitable promotions, don’t hesitate to bring that up for discussion. We all have very different experiences from promotions, for example barrage/CR for cats.

Don’t play intoxicated (from alcohol, drugs or smoke). Don’t play when you are too tired. Or when you have your kids/wife screaming at you :lol:

Try to keep track of the diplomatic events each turn, and visit each city regularly. It’s mandatory to check cities that grow or have a border expansion. Remember that the number of happy people will change due to changes in war weariness (WW), gained/lost resources etc. Keep track of specialists. We don’t want to polute the great person pool. Please respect LC’s micro management plans. We brought him to tears last game when we whipped a city on the wrong turn :cry: .

Ensure that you have the autosave settings to 1. Please contact AlanH if your game crashes, even if you can repeat all your moves.

If you PM the team, please ensure everyone one receives a copy (including JERFit - the lurker)

Remember that a lot of players read what we post. Don't be rude or disrepectful to any player not on our team.

Try to run a test game or two before we start. Your experience may either confirm or contradict some one elses, and is therefore valuable.

The goal for Team Murky Waters is to end among the top three teams. The ambition is to grab the silver laurel and the vision is to win the gold.

EDIT: From C-IV SGOTM 05 Pre-Game Discussion Thread - post #150: "We have an ambition to perform well and of course we want to win the gold laurel. We also want to have fun while playing and we want to learn more. It's more important to me to have fun than win the gold, and I think that it's the same for most players."

EDIT2: Forgot to mention: Ensure that your autosave config is set every turn. Don't forget to enable all HOF settings in case you lost them during a dual-install or whatever reason. And set the first-turn-setting to first turn = 1. This will reduce future confusion.
 
I suggest the following order of play. Any objections?

Big Pig
LowtherCastle
klarius
Mîtiu Ioan
Murky
jesusin
Gnejs
Erkon

AI characteristics
Alexander - Philosophical, Aggresive - Fishing, Hunting - Phalanx (replaces Spearman)
Cyrus - Expansive, Creative - Agriculture, Hunting - Immortal (replaces Chariot)
Isabella - Spiritual, Expansive - Fishing, Mysticism - Conquistador (replaces Knight)
Saladin - Philosophical, Spiritual - Mysticism, The Wheel - Camel Archer (replaces Knight)
Asoka - Spiritual, Organized - Mysticism, Mining - Fast Worker (replaces Worker)
Tokugawa - Aggressive, Organized - Fishing, The Wheel - Samurai (replaces Maceman)
Qin Shi Huang - Industrious, Financial - Agriculture, Mining - Cho-Ko-Nu (replaces Crossbowman)
 
Turn sets
[pre]
Start End Player Start Noteworthy
Year Year Page Events
4000 BC - 3130 BC BP 1 Delayed city one turn. Mining => BW.
3130 BC - 2530 BC LC 14 No mistakes.
2530 BC - 1960 BC klarius 19 Cyrus lost Persepolis to barbarians (go, barbs, go). Astronomy not needed for conquest.
1960 BC - 1420 BC Mîtiu 24 WW is mounting leading to discussions of gifting city to Asoka for peace. Seville razed by barbs.
1420 BC - 1000 BC Murky 29 Guangzhou has been captured from Qin by the Barbarian State
1000 BC - 850 BC jesusin 32 Gifted Erkopper to Asoka for peace, recaptured, get peace. Gifted Erkopper to Toku for peace.
850 BC - 610 BC Gnejs 57 :eek: Barbs capture Pasargadae. Recaptured Erkopper but no peace.
610 BC - 385 BC Erkon 62 Barbs capture Satsuma.
385 BC - 250 BC BP 71
250 BC - 70 BC LC 75 Barbs capture Chengdu. We captured Kufah.
70 BC - 80 AD klarius 77 We capture Barcelona, Nanjing. Barbs capture Hangzhou.
80 AD - 260 AD Murky 84 We capture Madrid, Medina, Santiago, Khurasan, Shanghai
260 AD - 410 AD jesusin 90 We capture Beijing.
410 AD - 575 AD Erkon 92 We capture Xian, Tianjin, Osaka. Qin destroyed.
575 AD - 725 AD Gnejs 97 We capture Baghdad, Madras, Tokyo, Damascus, Basra, Najran, Nara.
725 AD - 860 AD BP 100 We capture Bangalore, Kyoto, Korinth, Kagoshima, Arbela, Salamanca, Cordoba, Thermopylae.
860 AD - 1010 AD LC 103 We capture Sparta, Susa, Seville, Delphi, Delhi, Pharsalos, Bombay, Edo. Toku destroyed.
1010 AD - 1112 AD klarius 105 We capture Mecca, Tarsus, Gordium, Toledo, Lahore, Calcutta, Bactra, Athens. Conquest victory.
[/pre]
Summary:

Cities captured: 43
Kill military land units (mainly archers): 137
Lost military land units (mainly keshiks): 75
Build military land unites: 121

Screenshots, dot maps, strategies etc:
Spoiler :
 
Hello all! There we go. As this is my first SG, I don't know if it is ok to just post random thoughts like that.

I have played a practice game and it has not the implications talked about in the pregame thread, no spectacular WW in particular. It felt like a normal game (only with "free exploration"). I suggest that we play a normal game, not bothering too much about our alliance with the barbs. Maybe just prioritize BW a little bit more than a normal game, to give birth to barb axemen.

Now, the initial "war with everybody" is a great opportunity for us. The AI behaves very differently if it is at war. For example, if we are sure we must have a certain WW, then we shouldn't make peace to anyone, thus improving our chances of getting the wonder.

As for victory conditions, our goal is to be the fastest, so I think we should forget about anything but domination or conquest. I think domination could be faster in this type of map.
 
Checking in :)

@Jesusin:
In my test games, WW was a problem unless I got to peace with about half of the civs pretty fast.
And the chances to get peace are best if the barbs do something to them, so BW should really come early. Maybe best before the human barbs appear, which means bee-line to BW right away.

Unless Gyathaar changed it in the SDK :confused:, the AI civs are not really in war mode. They are only at war with the barbarian team, which doesn't influence their build preferences like being at war with a civ team.

In fact we can expect them to be very weakly defended and start to build more units only when we show up near their cities.
 
Checking in - and Welcome to the newcomers!

My test-game experiences were similar to jesusin's in so much that I never experienced significant WW. I suppose it all boils down to the map and how many barb battles there are.

Certainly conquest or dom are likely to provide the fastest victories - but I am sure Gyathaar has somehow set the map up so this will not be as easy as we would hope. It would not surprise me if we need Astro to reach any of the other civs for example - with all the early barb exploration, I guess we shall soon know.

How can we best use our barb alliance to our advantage? The idea of early BW (and IW?) suggested above seems a good one so the AI's are harried by barb axes and swords early. And careful use of the tech tree to ensure we get maximal 'free' techs will be useful too.

Tech speed was pretty slow in my games, so early pottery may be another important tech.

I would be very surprised if we share an island with an AI, so hopefully we can afford to take risks with our home defences initially
 
With all the early barb exploration, I guess we shall soon know.
Not my experience. The barb exploration is lousy. Even when they get galleys they prefer to just move around within a few tiles. The land units try to pillage and then suicide very soon.
Early work boat exploration would still be a good thing.

How can we best use our barb alliance to our advantage? The idea of early BW (and IW?) suggested above seems a good one so the AI's are harried by barb axes and swords early.
IW is coming to late IME. By that time so much land is taken that the barb units are down to a trickle. So if we want our friends to do some damage, it has to be with axes (and even that is just a crapshot on the RNG).

And careful use of the tech tree to ensure we get maximal 'free' techs will be useful too.
There isn't much what we can do there. We will get every tech eventually, but if we really need something urgently we have to research it. In the beginning the barbs will get us beakers in archery, fishing and meditation (it needs 3 teams to know a tech before the barbs get beakers @ 7 teams alive). Doing only one starting tech would probably maximize the gain, though if we have sea food, I probably would go fishing and BW. Going for AH (for the only visible resource), is taking to long IMO and doesn't optimize the barb feature.

I would be very surprised if we share an island with an AI, so hopefully we can afford to take risks with our home defences initially
I played both with and without a neighbour. Even having a neighbour, there is no reason to build a military unit before you need it for happiness. I never saw an AI military unit near my cities before I settled really close to my neighbour (still at war). And obviously one doesn't need a settler escort early.
 
Now, the initial "war with everybody" is a great opportunity for us. The AI behaves very differently if it is at war. For example, if we are sure we must have a certain WW, then we shouldn't make peace to anyone, thus improving our chances of getting the wonder.
Unless Gyathaar changed it in the SDK :confused:, the AI civs are not really in war mode. They are only at war with the barbarian team, which doesn't influence their build preferences like being at war with a civ team.

In fact we can expect them to be very weakly defended and start to build more units only when we show up near their cities.

If we do find ourselves in the situation that jesusin describes, then if we get a ceasefire and then redeclare war presumably this will get the AI civs in war mode? Whether we find ourselves in such a situation where this would be desirable remains to be seen!
 
If we do find ourselves in the situation that jesusin describes, then if we get a ceasefire and then redeclare war presumably this will get the AI civs in war mode?
That doesn't change anything.
The AI civs ignore the barbarian teams in all war plan and area strategy considerations. They will only use their pretty unfocused anti-barb strategies.
And BTW they also don't know that they met the human player, which in the standard game leads to one more defender needed per city (so the standard garrison will be only 1 unit per outlying city instead of 2 normally).
If more units are available they will have more in garrison, but if they don't have a war ongoing (or preparing) there will be not many spare units produced.
 
Hi guys!

Well, klarius, you are providing us with some invaluable info on this bizarre scenario. We will have to be very careful to keep these game characteristics in mind and not relapse into "normal" game mode.

EDIT:
1. How much do barb tiles count toward domination?
2. When do barbs first appear?
3. When do barb cities first appear?
 
Our inadequate strategizing, imo, has dropped us from gold to silver in the last two SGs. Noteworthy is our inability to work late/end game factors into our strategy.
In SG4, for example, we overlooked how devastating WW would be to G after we succeeded in “gifting” him ~10 Trojan WW Horses (a.k.a. cities). More foresighted would have been to leave/guard territory close to his capital for him to REX himself and focus our early attention on REXing/capturing GK territories (Yes, we did have enough info early on to think this way—no hindsight required).
My point is not that WW is important, but rather that

Our strategy needs to consider ALL game factors that might come into play at any point before the end.​
For example:
  • War weariness
  • Maintenance costs
  • Financing our land troops
  • Financing a galley(galleon) chain
  • Conquering an advanced nation in the end-game
  • Planning, coordinating, and financing multi-pronged offensives
  • Barb interference
 
We should avoid discussion of SGOTM4 in this thread until both the MW and the Peanut games have completed.....
 
2. When do barbs first appear?
From your test game, barb units (ie not animals) appear in 2620BC. If BW is known, the barbs can generate axemen from this date (although there is no guarantee - I presume there is an RNG that determines whether a barb unit will be a warrior, an archer or an axe?).

Getting BW too early (e.g. 3200BC) will not impact on this - but if we decide it is good strategy to have barb axemen wandering around terrorising the AI then we should aim to have BW by 2620BC
 
We should avoid discussion of SGOTM4 in this thread until both the MW and the Peanut games have completed.....
Fair enough. I was going on the notion that Peanut had kind of given up, but I guess that's not official yet. Anyway, if you can use my ideas above to get gold, klarius, go for it... ;) (but no replays...)
 
1. How much do barb tiles count toward domination?
If Gyathaar doesn't bent the rules the barb tiles count full. It's a team (like permanent alliance or MP team) not a vassal (which doesn't exist in vanilla)

2. When do barbs first appear?
There need to be 2 conditions fulfilled. First 37 turn passed (monarch 25 turns X 1.5 factor for epic). Second there need to be a total for 3/2 X the number of civs cities on the map (so an average of 1.5 cities per civ). In my tests the second condition came later, so it was between 40 and 45 turns.
The barbs will be equal probability for all units allowed for the barbs at this time. We will get archery after 35 turns from the automatic barb science. So it will be half warriors half archers if we didn't learn BW, or 1/3 warriors, archers and axes if we did.
The number of barbs spawning per turn is 1/4 of the needed barbs (according to unowned tiles - already existing) + 1. That means after around 6 turns they will be at full strength.

Edit: And don't forget we get a research penalty of 50% for being teamed. Don't expect that we can research BW and another tech before barbs appear.

3. When do barb cities first appear?
Again twofold. 45 turns and 2 cities per civ on average.
Note, barb cities may turn out to be a PITA. We cannot capture them and cannot prevent them spawning by fog busting. And we cannot trade with the barbs. So if a city spawns near resources they are lost to us.

But generally we shouldn't think too much of the barbs. They may add a few percent to a domination victory and may slow down the AIs a bit in the beginning. But the real work we have to do ourselves. And monarch AI handicapped in their defense should be easy enough to handle.
If we shouldn't need astronomy, research is no big issue. Galleys, axes, swords and cats should get us pretty far. Our UU doesn't really help a lot, if this is really something like an archipelago.
 
Edit: And don't forget we get a research penalty of 50% for being teamed. Don't expect that we can research BW and another tech before barbs appear.
Ouch! That is important information. So we really need to maximise our commerce income, at least until Construction (and possibly until Astro).
 
Research
  • For early warring, we need Fishing>Sailing and Mining> BW.
  • For coins we need Fishing(or agri)>Wheel>Pottery.
  • For cats we need ...>Writing>Maths>(Masonry)>Construction.
  • All of this, but Constr, is on the path to Astro.
  • We'll probably need IW/swords too.
  • For Astro we would probably go Fishing(or agri)>Wheel>Pottery>Writing first...which puts us in a quandary.
  • Oracle slingshot should be easy, but totally unnecessary if we don't need Astro.

Thoughts on Early Warfare
  • If we settle on coastal river, we can connect copper w/o roads (Wheel) if copper is on river or coast.
  • Raging barbs usually means eventually triple-promoted archers in AI cities. Hard to beat w/o cats and swords.
  • Qin is financial and industrious. Kill him early if possible. Kill him dead.
 
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