The early game gold grind

C

Catalytic

Warlord
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
100
I'm a long time lurker, first time poster here, but hopefully the idea I'm about to present has merit without a high post count. And hopefully I'm in the right forum and not beating a dead horse!

The problem with removing the gold from coast and river tiles is that it severely gimps early game options. Because gold is so limited, you cannot effectively do anything other than make 2-3 units and a building before you're forced into making caravans. The net result is that early game warmongering is now so risky that it renders civs with early UUs somewhat impotent. Civs with warrior, spearman, horseman, or trireme replacement UUs suffer, while those with Medieval Age and up UUs can take full advantage of their UUs.

I don't believe the solution is to simply put back what was removed. If you are landlocked, coast and river gold still renders you dead in the water. It makes map placement far more important than it should be. What seems to be needed is a small bonus to gold available for only a very specific period of the game.

My thought is that it should just be attached to the Palace building. This makes access to the gold buff universal. The solution I suggest is to have the building provide GPT based on population up to a limited cap. At 1 pop, 1 GPT, etc. This could go up to 3 or even as high as 5 before it shuts off.

Pros:
-Allows signficantly more leeway for aggressive early expansion and early warmonger playstyles
-Does not carry over to non-capital cities, so it can't be abused by rapid expanders
-Is not map-dependent, so the playing field is fair
-Is limited so that it only addresses the earliest 40-50 turns of pain without breaking any of the new BNW mechanics
-Is not so large a bonus that Spain's UA and the early exploration gold bonuses from goodie huts and meeting CSs become useless

Your thoughts?
 
I find the new approach to be appealing. It takes thought and planning to get your civ up and running, as it would be in early civilization. Close neighbors can be targets for war. Our human conflicts were reserved for Mesopotamia for hundreds upon hundred of years.

If it is found to be an issue Firaxis feels should be addressed, then I'd recommend more gold in the "goody-huts." It would play into the benefits of exploration.
 
i don't think the early game gold is as extreme as people are making it out to be. imo it's just people wanting the computer to reward them for lazy playing. i really enjoy the early game now.
 
What difficulty level are you playing on? The AI should have enough GPT that you can fund a small army in the first 50 turns. Finding other Civs to trade with is a necessity, especially if you have desires to take out your neighbors early on.

If you can't trade any luxuries or resources for GPT before getting caravans then you need to either increase the difficulty so the AI has more GPT available, or change your playstyle to adapt.
 
While I still hate many jungle type starts, I think the changes seriously varied the amount of openers. Mining starts are still fairly good, but plantation starts get significantly ahead of others on gold, something that before wasn't true if there was even a decent river going thru your city.

Even Sea based resource starts aren't that bad (they just can be terrible for trading down the line).
 
I have no money issues since I figured out how to make money with the new system. You need friends, their cash, and don't worry about GPT.. Use the Money NAOW! approach, and you can waste the AI.
 
Gold is A LOT MORE PLENTIFUL in BNW than before. You just have to be smart about diplomacy and mindful of the other AI's feelings :p
 
On gold; when you really need gold (first 30 turns); a lot less available. After you no longer need it (after the first 100 turns), a lot more available.

For that matter right after I made contacts, I was having trouble just finding an AI that wasn't running a deficit, let alone 7 gpt. The only feasible option for a surplus luxury was one of theirs as none of them had enough GPT income to make a GPT worth while. And strategic resources weren't worth selling at all at their lowered 1 gpt price.

After around turn 100, when I no longer need money; some of the AIs have tons as well. But that doesn't help early game.
 
I dunno, discouraging early warmongering and encouraging trade sounds good to me.
 
Catalytic said:
I'm a long time lurker, first time poster here, but hopefully the idea I'm about to present has merit without a high post count. And hopefully I'm in the right forum and not beating a dead horse!

The problem with removing the gold from coast and river tiles is that it severely gimps early game options. Because gold is so limited, you cannot effectively do anything other than make 2-3 units and a building before you're forced into making caravans. The net result is that early game warmongering is now so risky that it renders civs with early UUs somewhat impotent. Civs with warrior, spearman, horseman, or trireme replacement UUs suffer, while those with Medieval Age and up UUs can take full advantage of their UUs.

I don't believe the solution is to simply put back what was removed. If you are landlocked, coast and river gold still renders you dead in the water. It makes map placement far more important than it should be. What seems to be needed is a small bonus to gold available for only a very specific period of the game.

My thought is that it should just be attached to the Palace building. This makes access to the gold buff universal. The solution I suggest is to have the building provide GPT based on population up to a limited cap. At 1 pop, 1 GPT, etc. This could go up to 3 or even as high as 5 before it shuts off.

Pros:
-Allows signficantly more leeway for aggressive early expansion and early warmonger playstyles
-Does not carry over to non-capital cities, so it can't be abused by rapid expanders
-Is not map-dependent, so the playing field is fair
-Is limited so that it only addresses the earliest 40-50 turns of pain without breaking any of the new BNW mechanics
-Is not so large a bonus that Spain's UA and the early exploration gold bonuses from goodie huts and meeting CSs become useless

Your thoughts?
Click to expand...

There isn't really an early-game gold issue - what you are prompted to do is settle a second city earlier and rush The Wheel, since roads will be a prime income earner. Tile farming of luxuries is important as well.

I tried a few games as Assyria, and wasn't particularly limited by gold - instead I was limited by happiness. Early in the game, if you need more than three or four units to capture a city from an AI, you're probably doing something wrong as a warmonger to begin with.
 
cakes said:
i don't think the early game gold is as extreme as people are making it out to be. imo it's just people wanting the computer to reward them for lazy playing. i really enjoy the early game now.
Click to expand...

Agreed. You can still trade luxuries to keep GPT above zero. Trade routes are required, but at the same time the culture side of the game takes less hammers (instead of needing amphitheaters in every city you can get by for a while with just working culture slots and getting the required buildings as the GP pop).

As for early war-monger, the game was never set-up to use ancient era UU's for much beyond barb camps. Or to put it another way, the devs put in specific road blocks to try and slow domination so it takes as long as the other victories--you aren't meant to take over the world with Polynesian warriors. (Yes, I know you can game the system and snipe out enemy capitals and such).

But, all that said the OP's suggestion isn't bad at all. There is a short period of time in the early game where you may not have convenient trades (bad map spawn or AI doesn't have the gold to trade) and a minor boost to GPT would help smooth the gap until you get trade routes and city connections online.

On a somewhat off-topic note, this is one of the huge reasons why Tradition is so much stronger than other openers: The gold (and happiness) from Monarchy does essentially what the OP suggests.
 
I appreciate the feedback from everyone! I understand that some of my frustration is basic "learn to play better," but I didn't have this kind of seemingly insurmountable situations as often in Vanilla and G&K when going for early warmonger because your gold supply was more reliable and quicker to access.

A small change to the palace would provide a small boost that really only affects the tiny fraction of the game that's most critical - the time when you're fighting off barbarians from 3 camps and trying to get those crucial 2nd and 3rd cities up, all while at the same time not falling too far behind the race for NC so you don't end up with a face full of Shaka at turn 100 =)
 
The biggest problem with the reliance on trade is that you have to put considerable resources into a caravan, and if anything happens to it (which is pretty likely with the Space Invaders-like barbarian spawn rate), that investment is gone and you have a severe, if not crippling setback on your hands. I don't know why people think this makes the game "challenging" and "more complex". Getting knocked out of the game with the loss of one unit isn't fun, and "build a caravan or go bankrupt" is not a complex strategic decision.
 
Another big change in early gold is that you can no longer trade a luxury resource to the AI for a lump sum of gold early on. The lower gold and greater reliance on building vs. buying in the early game is a welcome improvement to the game IMHO.
 
Hit the restart game button if there aren't high gold luxuries around the starting position.
 
I for one agree with OP. I'm often losing money with only 2 military units, 2 workers and some necessary buildings. I actually found myself building Wonders (and losing them) only so I didn't have to pay more upkeep on buildings or units. Founding new cities to gain money through city connections is a good idea, but there's hardly any good spots to settle anymore. I find my area is just filled with the same luxury over and over and not much else. I can't take that unhappiness hit.
 
It does seem frustrating. Cant build units or buildings because you cannot afford to maintain them. Build caravan... Then it gets pillaged by barbs because the area around is still empty. Ill get the hang of it...
 
Luxury tiles when worked give 2 gold each. I think you now have to choose very carefully what buildings/units you will have. I find keeping the city count low also helps as only the capital gives +3 gold. So when you expand you may only have the +2 gold per luxury to fund any buildings.

Also there are few lump sums of gold from trading luxuries, I usually only get 4-5 gpt per luxury. However if you add it up a Capital can make maybe 7 gpt plus another 8-10 from selling luxuries. Tradition can add a few more gpt. free maintenance for garrisons, 1gpt for each 2 pop in the capital.

If you are founding cities then you shouldn't need a large army, 2-3 units are plenty

Only build new cities where you can snag a couple of luxuries or a luxury and a strategic resource (they can be sold for 1gpt per horse/iron).

Also that large army should be hunting barb camps (25 gold each) as well as extorting gold from CS/AI Civs.

When I am playing a warmonger civ, my army is usually around 4-6 units and I can keep gold above 0 gpt. Then once the economy catches up I tend to have a 500 gold reserve, and that is if don't go tradition.

The changes to gold reward those who plan ahead rather than try to build everything early on.
 
I fail to see any issue with this new change. Honor > Barb hunt. You have all the tools you need to get early gold. You may not like barb hunting, but it does get the job done.
 
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