SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

Yes, we need more navy. Vicky thinned things out for us :(

Hastings needs some more work beyond that listed on the PPP before we disperse all the workers. The worker listed as heading for Canterbury should contribute a workshop first. The cows worker needs to chop the last two forests and put some plains workshops down there. Getting the Heroic Epic at max production ASAP is much more important than Canterbury or (shudder) SL. Each workshop is 9 turns of work and we want about five of them, so just one or two workers is not going to be enough.

Any workers travelling should do so by moving on roads for several tiles, and doing a turn of work, waking up and moving on next turn. We're desperate for all sorts of work to be done - turns solely comprised of movement are wasted.

London workers building the NW Gmine will need to time their arrival - only takes about 11 turns to mine a forest.

Ferry should to PC unit duty, but if the workboat moving east encounters a barb (unlikely) consider defending it. So move the workboat first.

All spies are off at the moment, and we do not need to run any more until we identify what we want to use the EPs for.
 
My understanding of the GScientist bulbing preferences from here are:

Compass -> Optics -> Astro -> Engineering -> Gunpowder (assuming Guilds) -> Chemistry.

Yes, that's right.

Here is a long series of IFs:
IF we can tech/trade/steal for Compass+Optics
IF we can twice bulb Astro
IF we can do the above while teching Guilds
IF we are producing GScientists at a very fast rate

THEN we could bulb Engineering without slowing ourselves down. And proceed to bulb Gunpowder and Chemistry whilst teching/bankrolling down Civil Service -> Nationalism.

IIRC we've already put some turns on Engineering in my set. The above assumes we'll have six Gscientists available in the relevant time (if we're full-bulbing everything). If we've got six, then we can tech Compass and Eng, trade for Optics, tech Guilds, then we can put five bulbs on Astro+Gunpowder+Chemistry and have the last for a GAge to finish CS+Nat and revolt. Maybe the second last GScientist should be a GAge to get the double :gp: working for us. We don't have to bulb out Chemistry fast...

I think five Gscientists is more like the number we'll produce at the relevant time. We have two banked and a third coming in early this set. So, trading for the back half of Astro is attractive. Delaying Astro to keep our Colossus benefit is also useful, so long as we're not desperate for boats.
 
Seriously??

So this is like a one-off event where we could have a potentially massive spy discount? Not to mention no fear of the spy/spies being caught during the preceding 5 turns.

Could we crank out another couple of spies and nab techs like Compass or maybe even Feudalism at the same time? Edit: Clearly I am well behind with the play - we already have Feudalism! Does Willem have Engineering or some other useful tech we could trade. For that matter, couldnt' we just bulb Engineering?

I would be VERY interested in finding out what the actual discount will amount to. We might find that putting our slider at 100% :espionage: (or whatever the treasury allows) is a more efficient way to learn Compass than old fashioned research.

WvO has only Compass, Optics, Music and some of Theol. We have already put half the science on Compass AND Engineering. So I think teching those out by hand will be best. Otherwise, the EPs idea could well have been useful - except that we'd struggle to get another spy organized. We have the gold to finish Eng+Compass in four turns, (road movement bonus useful for the workers) then we can go to binary research on Guilds. Maybe stealing Theol to run Theoc later is on the cards.
 
There's an injured axe on Nautilus who was intended to land in Lagos, and help scout before the DOW. There's a CR3 sword near Hastings that should be organized to do something useful southwards when we can afford another defender for Hastings. He can join a galley out of PC some time. The peninsula south of Hastings has just been de-barbed, so don't worry too much about it.
 
Or tech engineering, guilds, gunpowder
double bulb chemistry
finish compass
bulb optics (or by the time we tech gunpowder, we might be able to trade for this even without being friendly)
steal astronomy

keeps colossus for the longest, and only needs 3 great people... so at least 1 for a GA and another one to bulb something else beyond chemistry/astronomy.

Need to work out what kind of espionage we might need to steal astronomy, but it is conceivable if Willem starts astronomy next I think.
 
Or tech engineering, guilds, gunpowder
double bulb chemistry
finish compass

That'll take 26 turns unless we pick up some gold from somewhere.

bulb optics (or by the time we tech gunpowder, we might be able to trade for this even without being friendly)
steal astronomy

keeps colossus for the longest, and only needs 3 great people... so at least 1 for a GA and another one to bulb something else beyond chemistry/astronomy.

But by then we'll have five Gscientists.

For info, we have two Gscientists, and our next Gscientists are due in 5, 14 and 25 turns. We can tech Compass+Eng+Guilds sustainably in 13 turns, trading for Optics. So then we'd have 12 turns of 100% gold while waiting to bulb out - so 25 more turns of Colossus. Our current sustainable tech rate is 40% and we currently need 13 turns to tech CS+Nat at 100% science, so we are not introducing a speed bump by waiting for five bulbs. FP will help with costs, though. And our next Gperson after that will be due at about the time we acquire Nationalism, which is perfect for a GAge.

Sadly, that's Nationalism in about 38 turns, which is about 15 turns slower than our test games. :( I think our expansion to England was not well timed for our tech rate, but may well have sped up the game by getting some conquering done...

Need to work out what kind of espionage we might need to steal astronomy, but it is conceivable if Willem starts astronomy next I think.

Yes that's an option that's on the table, which may get Chemistry faster for better workshop value. However he's taking 6 turns total for Theology, and Astro is about four times the size... so I think we'll get Astro+Chemistry faster ourselves with just trading for Optics.
 
hmmm,

Well I was doing some espionage testing and...

900 is the base cost of the civic switch mission

7020 is the base cost of stealing astronomy

I simulated Willem's land and something odd happened when I was setting up the city gifts.

Willem would take the city the turn it was founded and he would take the city the next turn if we only let the monument put culture into the city. However he would not take the city if ran an artist in the city for 1 turn. It seems if we have too much culture in the city he isn't interested.

So definitely do not run the artist. Further testing seems to indicate that there are other factors that affect whether he will take the city as well. Perhaps financial. Regardless, running the artist definitely makes it less likely he will take it.

However if we don't run the artist it looks like we might only get a 33% espionage discount for the 1 culture we put even if we try to steal the tech the same turn we gift the city.

Also we might not have the trade route discount the first turn. Sometimes there is a trade route and sometimes there isn't probably depends if there is a trade route with that specific city or trade routes need to be calculated the next turn? Anyways we can't count on it. And if we wait 1 turn for the trade routes to get reestablished we lose the cultural discount.

So civic switch with 33% cultural and 50% stationary and 18% distance and assume 0% discount from spending difference gives us a total discount factor of 0.395. So the civic switch should cost roughly 900 * 0.395 = 355 espionage. (high estimate) (284 with trade route bonus)

Stealing astronomy would cost roughly 2772 espionage. (high estimate) (2218 with trade route bonus)


summary suggestions
We don't need to run any more spies as mabraham suggested. I think we keep our espionage on Willem so that we will have enough to see his research after we switch his civics and to set up another switch if we decide a partial trade for astronomy is in our interests.

Stealing astronomy probably isn't going to work as mabraham suggested above since we are not going to be able to tech through to gunpowder in a timely manner.
Setting up a partial trade for astronomy is probably more doable.
 
I played according to plan. Right up to the point where Willem wouldn't take the city.

He was/is willing to trade Optics, but he started researching Engineering, and it is not worth enough now.

The save is here

The upload log is here
Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 595 AD to 745 AD:

Turn 213, 595 AD: The borders of Canterbury have expanded!
Turn 213, 595 AD: Catherine adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 213, 595 AD: Catherine adopts Theocracy!
Turn 213, 595 AD: Barbarian's Galley (2.00) vs Napoleon's La Couronne (Trireme) (3.40)
Turn 213, 595 AD: Combat Odds: 3.6%
Turn 213, 595 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 213, 595 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 213, 595 AD: (Class Defense: +50%)
Turn 213, 595 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 213, 595 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 213, 595 AD: Napoleon's La Couronne (Trireme) is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 213, 595 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 213, 595 AD: Napoleon's La Couronne (Trireme) is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 213, 595 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 213, 595 AD: Napoleon's La Couronne (Trireme) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!

Turn 214, 610 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 4 (Paired Clams) (5.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (3.90)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Combat Odds: 81.3%
Turn 214, 610 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 214, 610 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 214, 610 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 4 (Paired Clams) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 4 (Paired Clams) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Napoleon's Catapult 4 (Paired Clams) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman (6.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (3.16)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Combat Odds: 96.8%
Turn 214, 610 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 214, 610 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 214, 610 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (62/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (36/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (10/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 214, 610 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 4 (Paired Clams) (5.50) vs Barbarian's Archer (4.62)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Combat Odds: 67.2%
Turn 214, 610 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 214, 610 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 214, 610 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 21 (67/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 21 (46/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 21 (25/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 4 (Paired Clams) is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 4 (Paired Clams) is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 4 (Paired Clams) is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 21 (4/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 4 (Paired Clams) is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 4 (Paired Clams) is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 4 (Paired Clams) is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Barbarian's Archer has defeated Napoleon's Axeman 4 (Paired Clams)!
Turn 214, 610 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 2 (Bronzed Fish) (5.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (1.16)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 214, 610 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 214, 610 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 214, 610 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 214, 610 AD: Napoleon's Axeman 2 (Bronzed Fish) has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 214, 610 AD: You have trained a Spy in Marbled Clam. Work has now begun on a Spearman.
Turn 214, 610 AD: Rabbi Akiva (Great Prophet) has been born in Utrecht (Willem van Oranje)!

Turn 215, 625 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman (6.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (2.60)
Turn 215, 625 AD: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 215, 625 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 215, 625 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 215, 625 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 215, 625 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 215, 625 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (36/100HP)
Turn 215, 625 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (10/100HP)
Turn 215, 625 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 215, 625 AD: Napoleon's Swordsman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 215, 625 AD: You have captured Hittite!!!
Turn 215, 625 AD: You have discovered Engineering!
Turn 215, 625 AD: Werner Heisenberg (Great Scientist) has been born in St. Petersburg (Catherine)!
Turn 215, 625 AD: Willem van Oranje has completed The Dai Miao!
Turn 215, 625 AD: Isabella adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 216, 640 AD: Taoism has spread in Marbled Clam.
Turn 216, 640 AD: You have constructed a Granary in Spicy Rice. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 216, 640 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Nottingham. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 216, 640 AD: The borders of Silver Lode have expanded!
Turn 216, 640 AD: Catherine has completed The Parthenon!

Turn 217, 655 AD: Andrei Sakharov (Great Scientist) has been born in Clam Chowder (Napoleon)!
Turn 217, 655 AD: London celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 217, 655 AD: Buddhism has spread in Hittite.

Turn 218, 670 AD: London celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 219, 685 AD: The borders of Stone Mountain have expanded!
Turn 219, 685 AD: You have trained a Catapult in Paired Clams. Work has now begun on a Catapult.
Turn 219, 685 AD: You have trained a Settler in Golden Hills. Work has now begun on a Galley.

Turn 220, 700 AD: Ragnar has completed The Statue of Zeus!

Turn 221, 715 AD: Spicy Rice has grown to size 5.
Turn 221, 715 AD: London has grown to size 10.
Turn 221, 715 AD: York has grown to size 9.
Turn 221, 715 AD: Silver Lode has grown to size 3.
Turn 221, 715 AD: Canterbury has grown to size 2.
Turn 221, 715 AD: The borders of Hittite are about to expand.
Turn 221, 715 AD: Marbled Clam will grow to size 10 on the next turn.
Turn 221, 715 AD: Golden Hills will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 221, 715 AD: Hastings will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 221, 715 AD: The borders of Hittite have expanded!

Turn 222, 730 AD: Marbled Clam has grown to size 10.
Turn 222, 730 AD: Golden Hills has grown to size 8.
Turn 222, 730 AD: Hastings has grown to size 5.
Turn 222, 730 AD: Willem van Oranje has 160 gold available for trade.
Turn 222, 730 AD: Pour Willy has been founded.
Turn 222, 730 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for London.
Turn 222, 730 AD: Stone Mountain will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 222, 730 AD: London will grow to size 11 on the next turn.
Turn 222, 730 AD: You have discovered Compass!
Turn 222, 730 AD: London celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 223, 745 AD: Stone Mountain has grown to size 7.
Turn 223, 745 AD: London has grown to size 11.
Turn 223, 745 AD: Catherine has 6 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 223, 745 AD: Willem van Oranje will trade Optics


The autolog is here
Spoiler :
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 213/750 (595 AD) [24-May-2011 23:04:09]
Player Comment Traded Fish to WvO for Dyes
Player Comment Traded Wine to WvO for 4g/t
100% Research: 398 per turn
0% Culture: 86 per turn
0% Espionage: 24 per turn
0% Gold: -164 per turn, 655 in the bank

After End Turn:
Bronzed Fish grows to size 6
Spicy Rice grows to size 4
York finishes: Courthouse
Canterbury's borders expand

Other Player Actions:
While defending just off shore near Évora, La Couronne (1.40/2) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 96.4%)
Civics Change: Catherine(Russia) from 'Vassalage' to 'Bureaucracy'
Civics Change: Catherine(Russia) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 214/750 (610 AD) [24-May-2011 23:05:13]
York begins: Forbidden Palace (25 turns)
While attacking, Catapult 4 (Paired Clams) decimates Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 81.3%)
While attacking, Swordsman decimates Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 96.8%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory at Hittite, Swordsman (6.00/6) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 96.8%)
While attacking, Axeman 4 (Paired Clams) escapes from Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 67.2%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory at Hittite, Axeman 4 (Paired Clams) loses to Barbarian Archer (0.12/3) (Prob Victory: 67.2%)
Axeman 2 (Bronzed Fish) promoted: City Raider I
While attacking, Axeman 2 (Bronzed Fish) decimates Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory at Hittite, Axeman 2 (Bronzed Fish) (5.00/5) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
A Workshop was built near Spicy Rice
A Fishing Boats was built near Canterbury
100% Research: 401 per turn
0% Culture: 82 per turn
0% Espionage: 26 per turn
0% Gold: -152 per turn, 491 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Paired Clams
Marbled Clam finishes: Spy
Furry Crabs grows to size 6
London grows to size 8
Nottingham grows to size 5

Turn 215/750 (625 AD) [24-May-2011 23:15:52]
While attacking, Swordsman decimates Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 99.3%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory at Hittite, Swordsman (5.10/6) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 99.3%)
Captured Hittite (Barbarian)
Hittite begins: Lighthouse (91 turns)
A Quarry was built near Hastings
Player Comment decided to divert 3rd WB from SL to Hittite
100% Research: 412 per turn
0% Culture: 82 per turn
0% Espionage: 26 per turn
0% Gold: -157 per turn, 413 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Engineering
Marbled Clam grows to size 9
York grows to size 8
Hastings grows to size 3

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Catherine (Russia) towards Isabella (Spain), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Isabella(Spain) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'

Turn 216/750 (640 AD) [24-May-2011 23:22:16]
Research begun: Guilds (5 Turns)
Swordsman promoted: City Raider III
0% Research: 119 per turn
0% Culture: 92 per turn
0% Espionage: 26 per turn
100% Gold: 110 per turn, 256 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Clam Chowder
Paired Clams grows to size 6
Taoism has spread: Marbled Clam
Spicy Rice finishes: Granary
Nottingham finishes: Theatre
Silver Lode's borders expand

Turn 217/750 (655 AD) [24-May-2011 23:26:11]
Nottingham begins: Axeman (11 turns)
Nottingham begins: Axeman (11 turns)
A Fishing Boats was built near Silver Lode
A Mine was built near Hastings
A Workshop was built near Bronzed Fish
Nottingham begins: Settler (15 turns)
Nottingham begins: Axeman (11 turns)
0% Research: 115 per turn
0% Culture: 92 per turn
0% Espionage: 26 per turn
100% Gold: 123 per turn, 366 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Fish Hills
Whip anger has decreased in Golden Hills
Andrei Sakharov (Great Scientist) born in Clam Chowder
Fish Hills grows to size 6
Stone Mountain grows to size 6
London grows to size 9
Buddhism has spread: Hittite

Turn 218/750 (670 AD) [24-May-2011 23:32:00]
A Workshop was built near Furry Crabs
0% Research: 115 per turn
0% Culture: 92 per turn
0% Espionage: 26 per turn
100% Gold: 142 per turn, 489 in the bank

After End Turn:
Fish Hills finishes: Theatre
Stone Mountain finishes: Theatre
Bronzed Fish finishes: Theatre
London finishes: Theatre
Hastings grows to size 4
Hastings finishes: Barracks

Turn 219/750 (685 AD) [24-May-2011 23:38:10]
Fish Hills begins: Trireme (10 turns)
Stone Mountain begins: Barracks (15 turns)
Bronzed Fish begins: Barracks (11 turns)
London begins: Globe Theatre (30 turns)
Hastings begins: Heroic Epic (25 turns)
Fish Hills begins: Galley (10 turns)
Marbled Clam begins: Barracks (7 turns)
0% Research: 119 per turn
0% Culture: 109 per turn
0% Espionage: 26 per turn
100% Gold: 127 per turn, 631 in the bank

After End Turn:
Stone Mountain's borders expand
Paired Clams finishes: Catapult
Bronzed Fish grows to size 7
Furry Crabs grows to size 7
Golden Hills finishes: Settler
Nottingham grows to size 6

Turn 220/750 (700 AD) [24-May-2011 23:47:00]
A Mine was built near London
Paired Clams begins: Trebuchet (12 turns)
A Workshop was built near Stone Mountain
100% Research: 456 per turn
0% Culture: 109 per turn
0% Espionage: 26 per turn
0% Gold: -182 per turn, 758 in the bank

After End Turn:
Spicy Rice grows to size 5
London grows to size 10
York grows to size 9
Silver Lode grows to size 3
Canterbury grows to size 2

Turn 221/750 (715 AD) [24-May-2011 23:58:24]
Nottingham begins: Barracks (15 turns)
A Workshop was built near Bronzed Fish
100% Research: 459 per turn
0% Culture: 109 per turn
0% Espionage: 26 per turn
0% Gold: -183 per turn, 576 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Stone Mountain
Marbled Clam grows to size 10
Golden Hills grows to size 8
Hastings grows to size 5
Hittite's borders expand

Turn 222/750 (730 AD) [25-May-2011 00:05:54]
Diplomacy: Willem van Oranje (Netherlands) offers to trade Theology to Napoleon (France) for Engineering
Diplomacy: Napoleon (France) rejects trade of Engineering to Willem van Oranje (Netherlands) for Theology
Research begun: Compass (1 Turns)
Paris founded
A Fishing Boats was built near Hittite
100% Research: 479 per turn
0% Culture: 111 per turn
0% Espionage: 26 per turn
0% Gold: -196 per turn, 393 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Compass
Stone Mountain grows to size 7
London grows to size 11

Turn 223/750 (745 AD) [25-May-2011 00:11:33]
Research begun: Guilds (1 Turns)


All in all a very boring turnset.
 
Up NOW is bc....going to bed.
 
Good set Ron.

I played according to plan. Right up to the point where Willem wouldn't take the city.

That's weird. Everything looks to be in order. Maybe he hasn't got a good enough economy - there's a financial clause in there.

He was/is willing to trade Optics, but he started researching Engineering, and it is not worth enough now.

The only reason I can think of that Optics is available is that it provides no wonder and we've killed Vicky so he's above his monopoly threshold. Which means all of our scheming to get him to Friendly was irrelevant. Really?

Anyway, he's only just become willing to trade Optics, so we've lost nothing much... Now we'll have to use Guilds to get Optics and Theol, if we trade at all...

WvO now has the Tao holy building and Cathy has the Parthenon.

I wasn't expecting Cathy to settled north of Hittite where she did... thought she'd go NW for the fish. We may or may not be able to culture-capture the clam in a reasonable time, depending on the rate of decay of that 78% culture she has on the clam at the moment. Can you look and see how much did it change last turn, Ron? We'd have to organize a workboat for it if it was going to be ours any time soon. I note Hittite has an extra wheat we weren't expecting, and that Cathy close-packed another city too. :(
 
Got it.

Bummer on the city gift... I wish I understood the code. Sorry guys.

Since Willem is so close to Engineering (I assume he is more than 1/2 finished, but it would be nice to know when he started researching engineering and how many turns it reported it would take him when he did start). I believe mabraham said it took Willem 6 turns to research Theology, so he is producing research at about 195 per turn so he only has about 780 left to go on engineering. I don't think we can use engineering to trade for optics (1404) even if we traded for all the available gold.

Options
1) finish Guilds, then go 0% research on Civil Service and save up gold so that we can trade guilds to Willem for optics + some gold. Although this option does open him up to trade Guilds to anyone else since by eliminating Vicky we have gotten him below the threshold to trade with anyone.

2) finish Guilds, trade cathy compass for her 150 gold, trade engineering to willem for his gold in 2 or 3 turns, go 0% research on civil service (not finishing it obviously). Look for opportunities for 3 turns until the engineering for gold trade for Willem. (maybe miraculously willem will decide to take the city and we can steal optics for example, or cathy would be willing to trade optics to us after getting it from willem--I think this would have to be a guilds trade though so probably not)
After 3 turns just research optics ourselves if no opportunity presents itself. Research optics ourselves. double bulb astronomy, bulb gunpowder, 1 bulb into chemistry work to finish chemistry.

3) finish Guilds, trade engineering to willem for gold in 2 or 3 turns. Research Gunpowder and/or Civil Service at 0%. If Willem starts Astronomy and will finish in a reasonable amount of time, finish Gunpowder as soon as possible. Double bulb chemistry. research or trade for optics. single bulb into astronomy. Trade for astronomy from Willem. I assume since he will trade optics without friendly. He will trade astronomy without friendly.
If Willem doesn't start Astronomy after engineering for gold trade or can't do it in a reasonable amount of time, then revert to option 2.

discarded ideas
Spoiler :
He will trade optics but is researching engineering, we need to know exactly when he started so we can assess if we can still manage to trade for optics with it.

I might not make sense but cathy has 150 gold (could give her compass) Joao has 30 gold, Ragnar has 90 gold we could trade for. Together all of it is 270 gold and we might be able to make the trade. But not sure if it is worth it and not sure if it would even work.

Another option is to put 1 turn of research into optics and see if he will trade for it next turn. Again will only work if our research rate is significantly larger than his and he hasn't finished that much of it.


I'll work on a rough draft of PPP now.
 
PPP draft ready for feedback... editted based on mabraham's, aj's and ron's feedback

Tech Path editted
finish guilds
switch to civil service at 0%
When Willem shows 2 turns left on engineering trade it for his gold
When we see what Willem is teching I'll briefly pause to consult if possible but I assume I will continue with civil service at 0% and trade guilds for optics but not theology + gold if possible.

Look at population if less than 124 pop, use 1 turn of 0% research on gunpowder rather than civil service.

Wait until we get our 4th GS going 0% Civil service
Double bulb astronomy
bulb gunpowder (finish Gunpowder if necessary)
bulb chemistry (research chemistry)

Civic changes
none planned

Religion Changes
none planned

Tech Trading
Check every turn for new tech trading opportunities.
Check Research Screen each turn to see if AI Civs have completed any techs.

Planning to trade guilds to Willem for optics + gold
plan to trade engineering to Willem for gold when he is close to finishing it.

I will trade compass to Cathy for her gold, it will possibly get us out of being her worst enemy and the gold will be very nice.

Trade drama to Ragnar for his 90 gold. This is the least useful tech for him. The others are all prerequisites for worse stuff for him.

Other Trade Opportunities and Diplomacy
Maintain current trades
except
cancel corn for gems trade with Cathy, replace with corn for 6 gold trade.
Reject "Stop Trade" demands
If we have an excess resource, unload it if we can get some cash
If we have an expired deal for (easiest to check on the F4-"Active" screen by mousing over deals) and they have more income, cancel and try to get more. AIs will normally trade all their excess income for a resource up to about 10 (or more)
Check if there are other deals that can be canceled/reevaluated.
Accept research demands of low cost (<300 ) techs from others
Reject other research demands (but will check with the team if at all possible before doing so)

Espionage
switch espionage to Cathy 100%, divert some to maintain research view of willem if necessary

Will consider changing this if willem starts to tech something we could conceivably steal

Great People
another GS is due 5 turns. Bulb plan depends most likely option 4, double bulb astronomy once we get the 4th GS.

City Builds
I will grow SM, BF, PC, FH a little bit before colossus is obsoleted by not always working the hammer tiles in anticipation that we might want to whip them during a GA dip into slavery. But otherwise I will be working the workshops in the homeland cities as they become available.

CC... continue courthouse
FH..switches to workboat for bcool's mistake, then back to galley but planning to switch to max growth and not to finish the galley (waiting for it to switch to galleon) gives up workshop this turn for coast, then takes back after guilds, After the workboat gives workshop to SM

SM Barracks (taking workshop from FH eventually), then treb (which might switch to cannon eventually)
PC Treb, Treb
stop the spy here

MC... switch to workboat for bcool's mistake, barracks, then pikeman, a 2nd spy
working coast/marble so that next growth isn't slowed down but intending to continue working the marble after growth as well.


BF... Barracks, Treb (no workshops for this turn, then switch back after guilds)
FC... switch back to galley, switching to workshop next turn, and then switching to workshops as they are built
GH... works on galley, when grows to 9 pop switch to 5 merchants, seafood and gold
SR... switching to workshops next turn, continues barracks.

London, continues the Globe Theater
2 workers plan near london
chopping river forest this turn, then both workers work on grass river workshop, then both workshop the plains forest, switch cottage to engineer specialist. I think we workshop rather than chop the plains forest because we can work it until we convert it to a workshop.
will get support from a 3rd worker on the plains forest workshop eventually.

Nottingham, finishes courthouse in 2 turns with a chop if no barb threats
will come within 1 turn of finishing the axe after the courthouse chop if no immediate threats switch to barracks, finish the axe if immediate threat after the courthouse chop otherwise finish barracks first,
If there is an immediate threat before the courthouse chop will finish the axe with a chop.

Nottingham worker workshops for 2 turns in place
then chops forest if no immediate threat
moves to join a worker from Hastings to build a grass workshop for Nottingham, then moves back workshops for 1 turn, then moves on to chop forest to the north of Nottingham.

York
Forbidden Palace, needs that plains forest chopped so can finish the Forbidden Palace in 7 turns, then workboat for SL if can finish in a reasonable amount of time including travel time.
Will give up its cows to London after FP is built


Hastings Heroic Epic
workers (4) near hastings
#1
finish plantation this turn
worker who finishes plantation moves 1NE roads & stops
moves to forest SW of York, chops that forest into the Forbidden palace should finish the Forbidden Place
then starts workshop on the former forest tile
#2
moves and joins #3 working together to finish GrassFarm
then moves NW and combines with worker from Nottingham to build a workshop on a roaded grassland in Nottingham's BFC (NE of a lake)
then goes back and finishes partially completed workshop near Hastings then moves East roads on his way to help cities in the East side
#3
after finishing the GrassFarm moves to join workers in London putting workshop on plains forest. Then maybe to mine the iron near Silver Load or to chop the forest near Silver Load.
#4
finishes GMine, starts another Grass workshop near Hastings

Silver Lode, lighthouse, granary if york can build the workboat in a reasonable amount of time.

bcool's mistake (Pour Willy) (keep merchant in the hopes willem will change his mind, use artist if workboats are getting close and willem hasn't taken the city)
galley (I think it should be able to whip out a galleon for us)
So if we are not doing a dip into slavery, then perhaps lighthouse is better. 45 turns later... diverting a worker here perhaps after the dye plantation is built for a plains workshop...

Hittite (I don't think we are going to get the clams from Cathy anytime soon)
continue lighthouse
And artist?? I will look at how quickly we are winning the cultural war with Cathy. If it is 30+ turns I will abandon and work the grass hill forest instead of the artist.

Workers
Strauss chops dye jungle, plantation after clear jungle (SR borders pop in 4 turns)
Eiffel Workshop for SM then ferried over to PC to start the workshop there
Stevenson finishes workshop for FC then picked up by Beta moves on to PC to start workshop there (I really don't think FC needs 3 workshops, we can use Stevenson more usefully in England and beyond.)
Hoover one of the workers near Hastings see Hastings plan above
Yeltsin Beta takes Yeltsin to PC, Yeltsin boards Ferry then on to Old England. Ferry takes the southern route dropping Yeltsin off on the forest SW of Hastings. Then Ferry takes the catapult to the sugar island north of Joao's capital. Yeltsin chops that forest SW of Hastings, then moves to start a workshop on the grass tiles
Others 3 others near Hastings see Hastings plan, 2 near London, see London plan, 1 near Nottingham see Nottingham plan.

War Plans
taking barbarian city soon,
Will land the crIII swords and take out the barbarian archers. will raze it. The crIII swords likely will just get a few more xp and will have some time to heal on boats before being needed against joao.

Joao war plan
see attached screenshot

(note I think I can move Ferry a bit more efficiently than shown on the screenshot but doesn't make a difference on DOW turn so I won't show it and I might have cheated on the galley move with Yeltsin but DOW is unaffected)

Galleys and Triremes
Beta takes Yeltsin to PC, then Beta goes back to pick up Stevenson off of FC island, takes him to PC
Ferry takes Yeltsin and catapult to England, comes back for the treb in PC
New Galley takes spy to scout out Willem, spy hikes to Cathy's capital scouting as he goes, New Galley comes back and protects the homeland
Nautilus & KT take troops around near Joao

Sal II tours Ragnar's lands looking for a stack and more intelligence (hopefully staying close enough to the homeland for some barbarian protection)
La C swings around to Joao's north coast to try to protect Ferry if any barb galleys show up.
Paralus and New Jersey protect Nautilus and KT

Stopping/Pausing Conditions
A barbarian spawns in an awkward position that I can't immediately deal with
AI declares war on us
Timing of something goes badly awry



Checklist every turn before hitting end turn
double check MM and whip timing for each city
check tech trades available
check if and what AI have researched from F4 screen
check for new/better resource trades
check espionage screen for large sabotage production values in all visible AI cities
check if any AI went into war prep mode
check for any barbarians
turn off spy specialists
save the game

While scouting
will put a note that notes the most recent location of barbarians
will put a note that notes the most recent location of all AI units
 

Attachments

  • joao's war plan.jpg
    joao's war plan.jpg
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Got it.

Bummer on the city gift... I wish I understood the code. Sorry guys.

Since Willem is so close to Engineering (I assume he is more than 1/2 finished, but it would be nice to know when he started researching engineering and how many turns it reported it would take him when he did start). I believe mabraham said it took Willem 6 turns to research Theology, so he is producing research at about 195 per turn so he only has about 780 left to go on engineering. I don't think we can use engineering to trade for optics (1404) even if we traded for all the available gold.

Indeed.

Options
1) finish Guilds, then go 0% research on Civil Service and save up gold so that we can trade guilds to Willem for optics + some gold. Although this option does open him up to trade Guilds to anyone else since by eliminating Vicky we have gotten him below the threshold to trade with anyone.

2) finish Guilds, trade cathy compass for her 150 gold, trade engineering to willem for his gold in 2 or 3 turns, go 0% research on civil service (not finishing it obviously). Look for opportunities for 3 turns until the engineering for gold trade for Willem. (maybe miraculously willem will decide to take the city and we can steal optics for example, or cathy would be willing to trade optics to us after getting it from willem--I think this would have to be a guilds trade though so probably not)
After 3 turns just research optics ourselves if no opportunity presents itself. Research optics ourselves. double bulb astronomy, bulb gunpowder, 1 bulb into chemistry work to finish chemistry.

I don't see the edge here. We're spending time working on optics just to withhold Guilds? Also, would rather tech CS+Nat to sync with GAge opportunity than finish Chemistry, but this is an independent decision.

3) finish Guilds, trade engineering to willem for gold in 2 or 3 turns. Research Gunpowder and/or Civil Service at 0%. If Willem starts Astronomy and will finish in a reasonable amount of time, finish Gunpowder as soon as possible. Double bulb chemistry. research or trade for optics. single bulb into astronomy. Trade for astronomy from Willem. I assume since he will trade optics without friendly. He will trade astronomy without friendly.
If Willem doesn't start Astronomy after engineering for gold trade or can't do it in a reasonable amount of time, then revert to option 2.

Don't like 3.

There's also

4) get Cathy's cash for compass, finish Guilds, trade it for Optics+Theol+cash, and mark time at 0% on CS for five turns to get the fourth GScientist. Two bulbs on Astro, one on Gunpowder (hopefully full value), one on Chemistry. I estimate Guilds+CS+Nat will take 19 turns if we don't get any cash at all, so somewhat faster if we do, somewhat slower if we have to finish Gunpowder. The fifth GScientist is due in 5+10 turns, so we GAge him, switching to Nat mid-GAge, and finish Chemistry by hand (only 1400). Then get warring, and see if we have the legs to get to Steel for cannons (another 20-22 sustainable turns of tech at our current rate, which will drop by about 60:commerce: ~ 8-10% when we lose the Colossus)

Also, during that GAge, will we want:
  • Police State (extra hammers nice for producing navy and trebs), or
  • Representation (get steel for cannons in decent time)

  • Slavery (whipping units after we've drafted down to 6 - but consigns the city to the rubbish bin...), or
  • Caste System (keeps hammer bonus on our workshops, keeps artists for border pops in conquered cities, keeps CC working specialists for future tech and GAges)

  • Theocracy (needs us to acquire Theology some time, and pick a state religion - Christianity for the HE and GT cities, as CC is now irrelevant), or
  • Pacifism (units cost a fair bit of money, but we keep Gperson production high for GAges)

Perhaps our first GAge should be Rep-Nat-Caste-Paci-Tao to generate the necessary two more GPersons (GH might help here), and our second Police-Nat-Caste-Theo-Christianity.

discarded ideas
Spoiler :
He will trade optics but is researching engineering, we need to know exactly when he started so we can assess if we can still manage to trade for optics with it.

I might not make sense but cathy has 150 gold (could give her compass) Joao has 30 gold, Ragnar has 90 gold we could trade for. Together all of it is 270 gold and we might be able to make the trade. But not sure if it is worth it and not sure if it would even work.

Another option is to put 1 turn of research into optics and see if he will trade for it next turn. Again will only work if our research rate is significantly larger than his and he hasn't finished that much of it.


I'll work on a rough draft of PPP now.

Note we didn't act on your idea of cancelling our corn for Cathy's gems. I guess we should cancel it now...
 
yes noted about the corn. We could sell it to her instead for 6 gold. That seems like a deal.

Ron, out of curiosity, It would be nice to know if the city gift was possible the turn you settled Pour Willy. Maybe you can look at a save game? If it was possible then it does have something to do with the culture, if it wasn't possible then the city isn't 9.5 tiles away?
 
4) get Cathy's cash for compass, finish Guilds, trade it for Optics+Theol+cash, and mark time at 0% on CS for five turns to get the fourth GScientist. Two bulbs on Astro, one on Gunpowder (hopefully full value), one on Chemistry. I estimate Guilds+CS+Nat will take 19 turns if we don't get any cash at all, so somewhat faster if we do, somewhat slower if we have to finish Gunpowder. The fifth GScientist is due in 5+10 turns, so we GAge him, switching to Nat mid-GAge, and finish Chemistry by hand (only 1400). Then get warring, and see if we have the legs to get to Steel for cannons (another 20-22 sustainable turns of tech at our current rate, which will drop by about 60 ~ 8-10% when we lose the Colossus)

Issues with this... Cathy will get optics from Willem that much earlier. We must first trade Willem engineering for his gold, since he needs it to trade Guilds to him. We can wait a turn between the engineering trade and the Guilds trade in the hopes he gets some more gold so we can get more with the guilds for optics and theology trade. I was wrong you don't need engineering for guilds, so we can trade for his gold twice probably. I would like to do this trade for his gold when he has 2 turns left on engineering. And then again a turn or 2 later when we trade guilds for optics & theology trade + gold after we see what he decides to tech after engineering. All the while doing 0% on Civil Service.

I'm okay with it but I think you dismiss 3 too quickly Or I'm stuck on getting cannons before we start serious warring.

Originally Posted by bcool
3) finish Guilds, trade engineering to willem for gold in 2 or 3 turns. Research Gunpowder and/or Civil Service at 0%. If Willem starts Astronomy and will finish in a reasonable amount of time, finish Gunpowder as soon as possible. Double bulb chemistry. research or trade for optics. single bulb into astronomy. Trade for astronomy from Willem. I assume since he will trade optics without friendly. He will trade astronomy without friendly.
If Willem doesn't start Astronomy after engineering for gold trade or can't do it in a reasonable amount of time, then revert to option 2.
Don't like 3.
If Willem starts Astronomy...
We can steal optics from Willem. This plan only uses 3 great scientists and uses guilds to trade for Astronomy instead of optics and theology. Delaying the trade of guilds to the AI is significant since knights will be difficult to deal with.
We would have a 4th GS for bulbing that would make the paper, education, liberalism path shorter than teching steel ourselves directly. Or we could have a 2nd GA that much earlier.
The 5th GS could be used for the GA.
We could war with cannons and musketeers instead of Treb and musketeers. We can take out everyone except Cathy and Willem with Treb and Musketeers but I think we are going to need cannons to take Cathy out for her GLH. Knights would be difficult to deal with. A few pikemen would help, but knights would always be a threat to a Treb and musketeer army. Need to check if Willem or Cathy have access to horses and iron...

So option 3 delays the start of warring a few turns, but we get cannons. Keeps colossus 10+ turns longer.

Gives us more time to grow and would make whipping a cannon or 3 and whipping a few galleons or frigates realistic without crippling the drafting potential of the cities.

We can still do your option 4. We just wait on the trade of guilds for optics + theology + gold until we see Willem's next research choice. just a few turns of 0% into civil service either way. If he doesn't go for astronomy or if he does but won't finish it in a reasonable amount of time then we do your option 4.
 
Since Willem is so close to Engineering (I assume he is more than 1/2 finished, but it would be nice to know when he started researching engineering and how many turns it reported it would take him when he did start).
T218, right after Theology, it originally said 10 turns. It jumped from 6 to 4 IBT my last turn. The main reason I continued with the plan when I saw him start researching Eng was that I figured we would still be able to trade with WvO researching just under 1/2 of it based on original estimates.

Also, I forgot about this screen, this was IBT T221-222.
 
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