ALC Game #23: America/Lincoln

Sisiutil, I like your dotmap but I would move yellow 1E to the river for the health and Levee, planning on full cottages. You'd gain late-game strength and lose not much. I would suggest either Oxford in Washington and Wall St in yellow, or vice versa, depending on your science rate; but we can hope that Cuzco or Tenochtitlan will turn out to be better spots for national wonders. :hammer:
 
My games are usually won at one of 3 stages:

When I win the Lib race - I'll use the free tech to get ahead and be the first to Infantry and Artillary. Game over if I can warmonger successfully.
If I snag all seven Holy Cities - Nobody's economy can keep up once shrines are in place. More economy leads to more units and techs. From there, I (Usually) win.
I'm Isolated on a managable difficulty (Noble or lower. Which is where I usually play) - Expand peacefully, outtech the AI, and when I visit them, make sure that it's with Transports that are filled with Marines/SEALS and Battleships/Destroyers.
 
For me: my games are always won on the last turn I play. Also, for those who care, I always seem to find missing items in the last place I look. There seems to be some sort of common factor that causes this phenomenon but I'm not exactly sure what that factor is....

Do you frequently lose things on the last turn you play?
 
It's been my experience that Civ IV is either won or lost in the first 150 - 200 turns or thereabouts. So I am willing to make sacrifices that will only come home to roost in the long term if they will yield significant benefits in the short term.

You need more practice. i am quite capable of losing a game at any point after 4000BC.
 
As am I on the higher difficulties...

Heck. If I decide I want to cheat, I'm capable at losing at 4000 BC.

I once lost a game prior to settling my first city. It involved a power flicker from a storm.
 
I once lost a game prior to settling my first city. It involved a power flicker from a storm.


:lol:

I once lost a game before my first city on Deity (Seeing how far I could go) when I used WB to move my settler and Warrior. I forgot to put my settler back in.
 
Round 2: 2950 BC to 1675 BC (51 turns)

I started off by changing my immediate tech target. I had initially chosen Animal Husbandry at the end of the next round once I'd finished The Wheel, but as we pretty much agreed, I changed it to Mysticism.



This way New York would be able to build a monument right from the start.

It didn't take long to finish, and very little of import happened in the meantime. My Woodsman II Warrior healed and continued exploring, my workers finished the farm, which sped up the Settler build by 2 turns.



With that accomplished, it was time to found my second city.



For all the (at times deserved) criticism I get for failing to adequately micromanage, especially at the start, I think I managed my sole Worker's assigned duties quite well here. By not roading the corn yet, I had just enough Worker turns to get the road built to New York in advance--in fact, the road through that forest finished on the exact same turn the Settler did. I also had the Settler wait in that forest at the end of its first turn rather than end it motionless out on the copper, where it could potentially get devoured by a panther or wolf before the city could be founded.

As recommended, I pursued Pottery next.



I've been stung by criticism in past games for pursuing a technology like this, ahead of others, and then failing to take full advantage of it. So I prioritized laying a cottage down, and managed to get the first one on one of Washington's flood plains before the next tech finished. It may be farmed over later, but it will help with commerce generation until I have better options.

I then pulled a little trick I like, my in-case-of-barbs trick. I build my first defensive unit to within one turn of completion, then put a barracks ahead of it in the queue.



That way I can pop the unit out if it's needed to fend off barbs, or wait until the barracks are done so it can come out promoted.

I researched Animal Husbandry next...



...and the map generator continues to be kind, with horses nearby in two locations, the main one being right smack-dab where I had planned on putting city #3!



Well, several of you were urging me to move that city site a tile over, and this adds impetus to that. The production from the horses will partially make up for losing two of the hills in the west; plains horses are 1F4H1C, which is one hammer better than a mined riverside grassland hill. And I'm loathe to make a habit of settling on top of good production tiles.

The other horse site is at the southwestern end of the peninsula, 2S of the wheat tile--so we'll have to revisit our dot maps for that area.

I discovered Aztec territory a little further to my west than I expected it to be, and I was very sorely tempted by the following:



Two Workers! So tempting, so very very tempting... But as I said, it's a new level and I'm playing conservatively and cautiously. So I passed. I may need to keep Monty appeased, and a DoW for two Workers could come back to haunt me. I'm hoping to nab workers from Huayna instead. Speaking of which, now that I'd found Monty, I sent my Warrior back across the map toward Incan territory so it could be explored once Writing was finished and Open Borders were available.

Both Washington and New York grew quickly, so I was getting ready to start using the whip... when I suddenly realized I wasn't running Slavery yet. So it was time for the game's first civics change:



The AI probably doesn't care, but this may be a somewhat useful ruse against human opponents in multiplayer games. The switch to Slavery is usually an indication, after all, that you've just finished researching Bronze Working. But switching to it late, like I did here, just when I was actually ready to make use of the civic, could deceive some people into thinking you left BW awfully late. But then again, I haven't played multiplayer, so what do I know?

With Slavery in place after one turn of anarchy, I put the whip to use.



I suppose I should have a granary in place first, but with all that food, Washington should be able to grow back pretty quickly. And I'm anxious to get my axe rush army built. As always in this game, the difficulty is the many choices I have. I also need another work boat in addition to the granary, and more Workers are always useful, but I've decided that an axe rush is the way to go and it takes priority.

Next tech:



This was important because I wanted to scout Huayna's lands and see what sort of opposition and defensive bonuses my axes would be facing. As well, I can now build libraries to get the SE going. Sigh, another choice--books or axes?

Right around this time the first barb incursion into my territory occurred--just after Washington's borders expanded for the second time.



They do show up early on immortal level. But they haven't exactly been overwhelming me with numbers, at least thus far. Perhaps that's a function of the map?

Now, here's a look at the Incan capital:



The bad news is it's a holy city, so its cultural defenses may rise from 40% to 60% before my axes get there. The good news is twofold: first off, it's on a flat tile rather than a hill, and second... gold! With three riverside grassland tiles and the gold mine, it could be a decent commerce city, though I don't know if moving the capital here would be justified. Too mad about that peak in the fat cross--what's up with that?

Normally at this point I would have been researching Alphabet. But with the increased level of barb activity at immortal level, and more barb galleys showing up as a result of the 3.17 patch, I made a detour:



So should I get a Galley out soon to protect my seafood tiles? What about the granary, the library, another work boat, more Axemen...? Decisions, decisions...

Anyway, that's where I ended the round. I started researching Alphabet next--is that the right choice? I think it is, since I can probably obtain Iron Working in trade (and with copper, IW is less of a priority).

Here's a look at the map:



So as I said, I have more room between myself and Montezuma than I first supposed. I think that means I can continue to produce Axemen rather than another Settler for a little while. It also appears that I have room to expand into the north, though I wouldn't be surprised to see Monty get there first. And look--the first barb cities have already appeared!

Hatshepsut is south of Hauyna, while Hammurabi is further east of him. Obviously I'm not sure how much more room Hatty and Hammy have to expand on this snaky continent. The bad news there is that I'm Montezuma's closest target. On the plus side, if I war with him early and take him out, I'll pretty much have that entire portion of the continent--with all that choice grassland beneath the jungle--to myself. But is two axe rushes overly ambitious? I may have to settle for weakening Monty and then finishing him off later.

As for cities, I've agreed that city #3 should move 1E, next to the horses. Now what about a city to the far south? I could leave the wheat-clam-pig-wine city on top of the wine as planned, and then move the deer city to the hill N of the deer. That would mean the spices would have to wait for a later border pop from Washington. Or we could shuffle those cities around, seeing as how there's a good amount of food available--enough for two cities in the wheat-clam-pig-wine area rather than one. I'll be interested to see your dot maps.

As you can see, there's also stone to the east, though I wouldn't be surprised if Hatty gets to it first, so I wouldn't plan on building any stone wonders. I was thinking of going my usual tech route next, through Alphabet, Polythiesm (hopefully from a trade) and Literature to build the Great Library (though I don't see any marble to help yet). But what do the rest of you think? Is the GL without marble too ambitious a goal for my first immortal game? And another question: Alphabet will take about 35 turns. Should I wait until after it's done to attack Huayna? So I can trade a couple of techs from him? I think that would delay the axe rush too long, but what do the rest of you think?

And the granary in New York--the right choice? On the one hand, Granaries are really vital for optimal whipping; on the other hand, speed is of the essence here. Thoughts?

Anyway, I'm hoping that the main highlight of the next round will be the death of Huayna. He has only two cities, near as I can figure, both of them holy, both of them on flat tiles, and no visible strategic resources. Yes, it's tempting to wait until at least one of those cities has a shrine, but by that point Huayna could be much stronger than me. So the time to strike is now. Hatty's culture will be a pain over there, but I'm hoping the holy cities can fend it off. Do they both get +5 culture even if they're no longer your state religion? And I'll also need a plan to generate a Great Prophet or two before too long. Philosophical should help there.

It looks like a promising map, even if the neighbours are potentially troublesome.
 

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Going for Alphabet sounds fine to me. I'm surprised at why the teching isn't as fast in your game as it is in my (different) Immortal game where EVERYONE except Ragnar discovered Alphabet in the 2000 BC to 1700 BC range.

Good call on Montezuma's workers -- he would have been angry at you for a LONG time and would no doubt target you later.

Crank out some axes and go for Huayna. Be sure to settle city #3 before rushing as 3 cities provides the basis for a better rebound from economy-ruining rushes.
 
I advocate for killing the Incans ASAP. Their capital is looking very pretty, and will definitely help the early game here. Hope that barbs dont come a pillaging in their ships, whip your axemen, declare, kill.

I see two problems with this scenario.

1. Soon after, if Hatty has little more room to expand, she will be looking for blood. You might need to make sure she stays happy. Or maybe just continue the conquest...?

2. If Hammy doesnt get into a war with Monty, than Monty is going to be strong, crazy, and looking for blood... And that could spell trouble/defeat (depending on what letters you use I guess).

Three things I think you should do (in order of importance)

1. Scout Egypt

2. Find Hammy

3. Research Alphabet, trade for Iron (like you suggest... good trading partner... Monty?)

Also... Cuzco has a couple archers... we can assume that (in the time it takes you to make your army) at least another will be built... and another (or two) whipped with declaration. So... I would prepare for fighting 7 soldiers (5 archers and a warrior or couple axemen if he gets to that copper in time). But... I have never succeeded in playing on immortal, so I really dont know.

And one last point. If you go to war with Egypt and win, I think it is safe to assume there is no more land to the east, so that means you will have 3 Holy Cities, very close to each other, all safe (for awhile at least)... That sounds delicious to me!
 
Build/whip a worker first in washington. You get more back in hammers from mining those hills and from chopping than you will lose waiting to start axes. You will need more than one worker to develop the NW city by the ponies. I would wait on the workboat until after the axes. You can farm a floodplain for 4 food which is the equivilent of clams w/o a lighthouse. Unless you plan to let NY borrow the clams as well as the corn for axe whipping. If you are then chop/whip a boat.
If you succeed in tahing out Hyena cupcake try and convert Monty to on of those religions and then dogpile Hissyfit. He is far enough away that he won't grab the good cities and the mutual military struggle diplo bonus will help until one of you :backstab:
 
As I suggested before, you probably want to move your capitol to New York.

I'm not liking this map very much. None of your cities except York are going to be very exceptional and there's going to be some maintenance costs incurring when you conquer Inca. Though I suppose Hatshesput is the obvious next target, Monty is far more dangerous, except he's also pretty far away.

Maybe I'm being cowardly, but I'm going to suggest a regen.
 
Good call on Montezuma's workers -- he would have been angry at you for a LONG time and would no doubt target you SOONER.

.

This is Monty, it's never a matter of if.
 
LOl, I am currently on my SECOND attempt in the shadow game. I would like to say that the 1st was going so well, I restarted to try a more challenging strategy. It's been about a year since i played immortal or even emperor
 
As I suggested before, you probably want to move your capitol to New York.

Maybe I'm being cowardly, but I'm going to suggest a regen.

Why move the capital to New York? I just dont see New York as a hammer OR economic hub to consider moving the capital. If you really want to move it... I am sure we can find a better place (Inca? 3rd City?)

A regen? Ehhh.... Not sure about that one. If we honestly want to consider that... I think we can wait till after the B.C.'s ... when things MIGHT be a LITTLE more clear... but until then.

Besides, its not like we have Louis as a neighbor, right? :lol:

And CivCorpse brings up a great point... everything with Monty is an "if"
 
2. Find Hammy

...

And one last point. If you go to war with Egypt and win, I think it is safe to assume there is no more land to the east, so that means you will have 3 Holy Cities, very close to each other, all safe (for awhile at least)... That sounds delicious to me!
I found Hammy. He's due east of Huayna, so there is land over there. And for Monty to attack him, he'd need to march through my territory and Hatty's (I'm not counting Huayna's since he'll soon be dead).
As I suggested before, you probably want to move your capitol to New York.

I'm not liking this map very much. None of your cities except York are going to be very exceptional and there's going to be some maintenance costs incurring when you conquer Inca. Though I suppose Hatshesput is the obvious next target, Monty is far more dangerous, except he's also pretty far away.

Maybe I'm being cowardly, but I'm going to suggest a regen.
:confused: Once again, your logic escapes me, I'm sorry to say.

This map has some of the best surrounding terrain I've seen in a long time. I've got tons of happy and healthy resources along with two of the three crucial early strategic ones. I often get maps lately where there are no gold/gems/silver or no calendar resources and where there's no copper or horses anywhere nearby, and iron is in an awkward spot.

Washington will be an excellent GP farm--not the best I've ever had, but better than several I've ever settled for. (It will be a better GP farm than Cuzco, for example.) And the horse/flood plain city will be a top-notch commerce site with respectable production and it will therefore likely become the new capital--unless I manage to capture an even better location (say, Monty's or Hatty's capital) before Civil Service and Bureaucracy roll along.

New York will a good city, but not capital material, IMHO. It's low on food and it has no river tiles, two musts for any capital in my book.
 
Disregard my advice. I haven't actually launched the save up yet so maybe I'm over-shooting my concern.
 
Sorry bout that... I suppose you can ignore those points then... just focus on scouting down that way then... which you are doing. =]

Those three Holy Cities are still looking delicious, even though I was confused about that.

Well... now Monty is an even bigger concern... If you move east, Monty is going to get all that nice land, and a big army... If you move west, you miss out on holy cities, and all the wonderful things that await you that way...

Im thinking rush Huayna, make Hatty happy, than deal with Monty.

With nobody to attack, he is going to be a menace.
 
The bad news there is that I'm Montezuma's closest target. On the plus side, if I war with him early and take him out, I'll pretty much have that entire portion of the continent--with all that choice grassland beneath the jungle--to myself. But is two axe rushes overly ambitious? I may have to settle for weakening Monty and then finishing him off later.

Maybe it would be a good idea to re-consider your overall strategy for the game. You've been thinking "Huayna must die ASAP" since meeting his scout on turn 4, but now that you have more information is that really the best strategy?

You now know that Huayna's ability to expand is going to be severely hampered by his proximity to Egypt. And with different religions it seems that a war between Hattie and Huayna is inevitable. You probably noticed that Hattie has horses, so she'll be able to field her UU. It doesn't seem to me that Huayna is a huge long term threat (at least no more so than any other Immortal level AI).

Monty on the other hand appears to have a huge amount of very good quality land at his disposal. All of the other AIs that you've met are to the east, and it appears that there are some other(s) that you haven't met yet to the east of Hammurabi. Monty normally is most dangerous early, before his slow tech rate diminishes the threat he poses. However I'm not sure you can count on that here.

So maybe it would be best to chance course. Forget about Huayna for now and focus on taking Monty out. The distance to the Aztec cities means they'll all need to be razed (including the capital). But with no competition for expansion to the west you'll be able to settle westward at your own pace.

This would mean playing a mostly peaceful game for a long while after the axe rush, which doesn't necessarily fit with the Charismatic trait, but is more geared to using Lincoln's Philosophical bonus.

Of course another option is to just skip the axe rush altogether and REX westward competing with Monty for the choice green land. I don't know if that's really feasible at Immortal however.

Do they both get +5 culture even if they're no longer your state religion?

You get the 5 :culture: from a holy city if it's your state religion or if you have no state religion (including when you're running FR). So the only way to get the culture from 2 holy cities is to have no state religion.
 
Maybe it would be a good idea to re-consider your overall strategy for the game. You've been thinking "Huayna must die ASAP" since meeting his scout on turn 4, but now that you have more information is that really the best strategy?

You now know that Huayna's ability to expand is going to be severely hampered by his proximity to Egypt. And with different religions it seems that a war between Hattie and Huayna is inevitable. You probably noticed that Hattie has horses, so she'll be able to field her UU. It doesn't seem to me that Huayna is a huge long term threat (at least no more so than any other Immortal level AI).

Monty on the other hand appears to have a huge amount of very good quality land at his disposal. All of the other AIs that you've met are to the east, and it appears that there are some other(s) that you haven't met yet to the east of Hammurabi. Monty normally is most dangerous early, before his slow tech rate diminishes the threat he poses. However I'm not sure you can count on that here.

So maybe it would be best to chance course. Forget about Huayna for now and focus on taking Monty out. The distance to the Aztec cities means they'll all need to be razed (including the capital). But with no competition for expansion to the west you'll be able to settle westward at your own pace.

This would mean playing a mostly peaceful game for a long while after the axe rush, which doesn't necessarily fit with the Charismatic trait, but is more geared to using Lincoln's Philosophical bonus.

Of course another option is to just skip the axe rush altogether and REX westward competing with Monty for the choice green land. I don't know if that's really feasible at Immortal however.
This is a very cogent analysis, I think, and an excellent suggestion. Huayna is indeed hemmed in by myself and Hatty (though he could sneak by me into the north if I'm not careful). He will not be the threat he usually is. Leaving him alone means he may build those shrines for me, and I may be able to tackle him later.

It means I should steer my Warrior back west ASAP to check on Monty's land. Maybe I should research Hunting before Alphabet in case Monty has Chariots, which can ruin an Axeman's day?
 
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