armaggedon counter - the punishement for the evils

Yeah with the new magic system implemented in Wildmana it would make sense to make most of the AC effects go hand in hand with the system.
Make it so that for every point above 0 it benefits dark magic(Via reduced costs/maintenance), for every point below, it benefits light magic. Obviously you'd have to make it so that The AC counter can go into the negatives.

Make it so that the global enchantments can prevent hell terrain spread (with a higher cost if you're evil) and as the AC rises the cost of these enchantments will go up accordingly till you're overwhelmed.

The way you can currently(Pre 9.0) just go out and sanctify terrain makes most of the AC system ignorable.
The current system with no incentive to raise it makes it pointless game-play wise.
 
I have a game going where the AC had risen to 12% around turn 30. Obviously Ashen Veil had not been founded by then, so I've got to wonder what's going on. Is there an Event for all players that can bump the AC by that much? Would Graveyards maturing into Necropolises account for it? By turn 120, where I am now, the AC has gone down to 7%, but there is no reason to think a Mercurian Gate has been opened.
 
Caradoc said:
I have a game going where the AC had risen to 12% around turn 30. Obviously Ashen Veil had not been founded by then, so I've got to wonder what's going on. Is there an Event for all players that can bump the AC by that much? Would Graveyards maturing into Necropolises account for it? By turn 120, where I am now, the AC has gone down to 7%, but there is no reason to think a Mercurian Gate has been opened.
Click to expand...

no i think this is probably an anamoly of sorts, i have seen tests that get a quick bump up, and i think that is contributed mostly to various random events that can affect the AC count, both up and down. If enough of the right ones hit in a short period of time you can get an early spike like that, and as you noted it dropped back down. Probably also random events taking place with the various AI players.
 
@Caradoc
this mostly happens because graveyards upgrade to necropolises. each graveyard that upgrades increase the AC by 2 and they all upgrade at the same time afaik. so there is always a bump in the ac at a certain turn.
 
might be a good idea to give each graveyard a somewhat random time to get to necropolis to avoid that methinks. it's a problem especially when using the erebuscontinent option that places a lot of them around :lol:
 
Ah, the FfH Game Mechanics. Often contrary to the lore, a perpetual source of justification attempts and gameplay people boldly finding more anti-lore synergies...
 
Here's a random thought: The horsemen don't target evil civs (at first).
Bump the AC up quickly enough, and you can laugh maniacally as their bronze warriors try to take on Stephanos and co. Of course, any evil unit hanging around the horseman would be fair game. Just much lower on the priorities.
Once all the evil civs are gone, the horsemen go for the neutrals. Once those are gone the evils show up on the menu.

Not much of a change, but it would certainly get the good civs a bit more worried about a high AC, especially early game. Of course, the horsemen aren't that much of a threat later on. I had some ideas about that a while back. Now where did I put those...

*rummage rummage*

Here it is. Had to do more with a lack of AC scariness, but I think it's still applicable to the thread.

Fafnir13 said:
It seems a tad off to me that blight, the very first of the events, is the one that seems to have the largest effect aside from the final boom. With that in mind, I thought we might try to cook up a few global troubles.

The horsemen :deadhorse:

Each one existing in the world could cause a global effect on all cities, units, whatever so long as they are alive. The goal of this would be to further encourage (the weapons certainly help) players to send troops some distance to aid in the fight against them. As it is, only the player being attacked by the horsemen really cares too much about them.

Stephanos :king:
I hate to say it, but I have a hard time coming up with a good global effect for him. Simple uhappiness would probably suffice in representing the unrest caused by his voice. I'm sure someone could come up with something better though.

Buboes :mwaha:
His effects could probably best be done via diplomacy penalties. Everyone gains, say -5 for the duration of his stay, making wars more likely. That would only effect AI players though, so why not also disable diplomacy with anyone you're at war with. Means you've got to fight to the bitter end or, perhaps, track down that horseman.

Yersinia :vomit:
A couple good options here. Either a good blast of unhealthiness to all cities or perhaps a guaranteed pestilence events coinciding. Not exactly a lasting feature (doesn't need to be) but it would at least make units entrence into the world more dynamic.
Oh, it might also be nifty if, as per AC 90, plague/diseased was spread around at random to your units.

Ars Moriendi :evil:
Would it be possible for any unit killed in the entire world to have a chance of spawning a nearby wraith? That would be fun.


AC 90[pissed]

Anyone who's reached it recently knows it can be a bit of pain right now. Rather then clutter up the post with discussion on the new enraged (go here for that), I wanted to focus on some other negative effects it could have.
One that leaps right out at me is global unrest. Imagine every single one of your cities going off the deep end simultaneously. Exactly how long could be determined by city size or simply done at a flat rate. In addition to the unrest, a certain amount of unhappiness would be appropriate given that his anger and rage is supposedly sweeping the globe.

Sheaim

On a side note, it would be awesome if the Sheaim were, as a populace, immune to some of the global effects. Their leaders are probably pretty good at spinning a good yarn on how the world going to pot is actually a good thing and don't worry about the scary man on the pony. He's actually your friend.
They could do with other tweaking so that Armageddon itself somehow gives them benefit, but that's another thread.
Click to expand...

Edit: More rummaging has brought out more of my old ruminations, some of these directly dealing with making the Armageddon more useful to evil civs. Nothing ever came of these ideas ( :( ) but maybe that can change now?

Fafnir13 said:
I would like to see Armageddon have a bigger and more lasting effect then it has at present. The current form honestly feels like a bit of a letdown when it finally triggers, even though the death it causes in unparalleled.
What follows is a quick list of random things I've come up with that would make Armageddon more fun. Feel free to pick and choose which one's you like.

More Hellgates
In addition to its other effects, Armageddon now also spawns another batch of demon spawning portals all over the world. For extra fun, give the spawned units stigmata and up the spawn rate from the original portals. Also be nice if they would turn the tile they spawn on into hell terrain.

Demon Barbarians
In addition to the usual orcs, demons of varying power are able to spawn in the world. Imagine the survivors' dismay when Balors start to pour in from the wastes.

Destroy Cities
Either a random number of cities below a certain size or just a raondom number of cities would work. It feels downright strange to have the worst thing ever happen to the world but still have all my bastions of peace and tranquility relatively intact. You could set it to destroy all cities below a certain population, but I think that would be a tad harsh on our Kuriotate friends.

Hell Terrain Everywhere
Cover the world in hell terrain when Armageddon hits, leaving only the cultural areas of the Good untouched. If there was a way to randomly create large patches of it hither and thither, that would be more aesthetically pleasing. At the very least, double the spread rate of the current hell terrain. Would work great with the idea of the demon spawning portals creating hell terrain at their location.

Cultural destruction
Reset/lower the culture of all cities and slow its growth for a number of turns. Erm...might be a tad harsh on those pursuing a cultural victory...but perhaps that's a good thing. Right now, the only thing you can do is wage a war which may or may not be feasible given your situation.
Anyway, getting rid of some culture has some nice effect to it. First, it nicely illustrates the decent of man's position in Erebus. Everything has gone to crap; no one has time for arts and crafts anymore. The need for survival has taken over, if briefly. Secondly, it gives more areas for barbarians to spawn. Nice synergy with the demonic barbarian ideas. Thirdly, it would allow hell terrain to spread into areas once owned by good Civs, meaning they would have to spend some time pushing it back once their culture is restored. Nice illustration of the new world struggling to cleanse itself.

AV Civs Gain Barbarian
When Armageddon hits, all Civs following AV gain a copy of the barbarian trait, save that it will never go away due to culture. Instead, it goes away if the Civ ever converts to another religion. Later converts to team evil do not gain the trait of course. That train's already left the station.
There are a couple nice synergies with this. First, the evil guys gain some benefit for being evil. Would also help to further polarize the world as the player must make the decision before Armageddon hits whether to embrace it, allowing hell terrain to spread but gaining a useful trait. Also means the few remaining good guys and neutrals will have the bulk of the barbarian troubles.

Horsemen Rituals
Ever wanted to command the unholy quad? Now you can! Just trigger Armageddon and complete the vile rituals and they will bend to your will. Did the horsemen already get whacked? :deadhorse: No problem! These handy dandy rituals will raise the gods' nightmares back from whatever pit the were buried in, ready to wreak havoc once again. Be warned though! Just because you control them now doesn't some other Civ can't do the ritual themselves, gaining control of them no matter where they are. Don't worry though, as you can repeat this ritual as often as you need.
Goody two shoes and neutral Civs need not apply. May require certain techs and the horsemen may be slightly crazed.

Create Your Own!
I hope you like my ideas. Especially any of the devs who read this thread...
Anyways, feel free to comment on mine and come up with some of your own. Let's turn Erebus into the diseased wasteland of pestilence and death it ought to be after the fires of hell have ripped it assunder. :clap:
Click to expand...
 
I tend to think of Hell Terrain as a counterbalance to “sacrifice the weak”. Agreed its a bummer being evil and non AV.
 
Moin,

I strongly vote for Fafnir13s' ideas!!! AC, horseman and Avatar of wrath till now is only a small pain in the ass. Armageddon is the end of erebus as we know it, so the effects really have to be devastating. Fafnir made very good suggestions, also how evil civs can actually benefit from high AC.

Greez,

Tschuggi
 
I'm fairly certain the reason the AC is more punishing to evil civs is because it's supposed to be punishment for their deeds. The whole FFH end-of-the-world thing is heavily based on Christian apocalyticism; the faithful are protected (to some degree, at least), the sinners punished. The only civ that gets any real benefit from the AC is the one that is actually trying to destroy the world.
 
It would make sense for good civs actually being hit by hell terrain and, generally, the more good you are the longer it would take for hell terrain to spread to you, BUT the harder the impact will be once it hits. Gives incentive to keep the AC down a bit if you are good.
 
squadbroken said:
I'm fairly certain the reason the AC is more punishing to evil civs is because it's supposed to be punishment for their deeds. The whole FFH end-of-the-world thing is heavily based on Christian apocalyticism; the faithful are protected (to some degree, at least), the sinners punished. The only civ that gets any real benefit from the AC is the one that is actually trying to destroy the world.
Click to expand...

Except that's not what's going on. The Christian Apocalypse is Judgemeant on the world. The Erebus one is the world being actively corrupted and destroyed by Agares and co (iirc). Ultimately, the plan is that everybody's going to die.
 
Fafnir13 said:
Except that's not what's going on. The Christian Apocalypse is Judgemeant on the world. The Erebus one is the world being actively corrupted and destroyed by Agares and co (iirc). Ultimately, the plan is that everybody's going to die.
Click to expand...
It might not be identical to the Christian Apocalypse but it's obviously heavily based on it. Both lorewise and in practice.

As far as mechanics go, as Kael himself states, the primary reason for the AC is to polarize the world and drive conflict, not to directly benefit anyone outside of a few special cases. Most of the "penalties" suffered by evil civs can be mitigated with the AV civic, and it encourages neutrals to pick a side.
 
I don't see any real polarization in game. There has to be a reason for one side to want the AC high and one to want it low. As it is, the only real problem for Evil Civs is hell terrain. When I play evil and the Infernals are summoned, I make wiping Hyborem out and sanctifying his lands my top priority. If I can do that, there is literally NO difference between playing good or playing evil as the AC rises.
 
No, there has to be a reason for the AC to get high, not a reason for a side to want it high.

There is plenty of reason (lore-wise, at least) for Good to want to keep AC low, and adding mechanics towards that is fine. However, Evil civs do not want a high AC. They should have a reason to want to perform actions which increase the AC as a consequence of the action, not the cause of it. For example, you want to sacrifice that slave to gain research? Go right ahead... but the AC is going up. Raze that city and take some of it's population as slaves? Sure, but again, AC is going up.

Changing hell and armageddon is fine, and I plan it for RifE... but it should remain a consequence, not a cause, of your actions.
 
I disagree with rewarding evil players for a high AC. Only the Sheaim want to destroy the world. Why should Auric Ulvin destroy the world? He wants to rule it again. Why should the Svartalfar destroy the world? They want to rebuild their empire. Why should the Balseraph destroy the world? Being dead isn't so much fun. And so on.
 
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