[Religion and Revolution]: Further Native Nations

I was thinking a little about Mixtec. :think:

Would this male leaderhead eventually fit better (although it is pretty cliche-like) ?
(Instead of this female leaderhead which we have currently planend.)

Just thinking ...
 
I would keep the female LH art
Also, the biography colonialfan just put together about that 11th century female leader is pretty nice
 
I checked the Omagua/Cambeba texts, and they are also nice
It would be great if they could be added as well, as a separate civ
The only problem is that they share the general list and the city list with the Machiparo
Colonialfan, maybe you can add a couple distinct names to the Omagua city list?
 
I would keep the female LH art
Also, the biography colonialfan just put together about that 11th century female leader is pretty nice

:thanx:
It took some time to piece together the few snippets of info I could find on her. Mixtec codices are more of an interpretive record than a literal one, hence the rather vague details in the leader bio.

I agree that the female leaderhead is probably a better choice. We could use the male leaderhead, but the most appropriate leader to use would be Lord Eight Deer, who was also an 11th century king. Sadly there is no biographical data on Mixtec leaders much after this date, as any reference to them in Mixtec codices were destoryed by the Spanish. :sad:

Its not ideal to use a leader who died nearly 400 years before the game starts, but I'd rather use that than make someone up.
 
I checked the Omagua/Cambeba texts, and they are also nice
It would be great if they could be added as well, as a separate civ
The only problem is that they share the general list and the city list with the Machiparo
Colonialfan, maybe you can add a couple distinct names to the Omagua city list?

Sadly, there is less information on the Omagua/Cambeba & Machiparo, than there is on the Mixtec. There are two big problems with the documentation of this area. Firstly, the Spanish were not too great at keeping accurate or detailed records, understandably so if you spend most of the time paddling for your life. Secondly, what they did record they often misunderstood or got backwards, confusing the names of tribes/villages and leaders or using them interchangably.

So far, these guys have been the hardest to research. A lot of information was completely contradictary. Some sources claimed the Machiparo were part of the Omagua, others claimed the tribes that attacked the Orellana expedition were not the Omagua at all but a completely different tribe, the list goes on and on.

You are right about the village names. In fact the list I provide is not entirely accurate in terms of being Machiparo or Omagua. (The same goes for the generals names. Its a mix of leaders I found referenced in several sources.) The list of village names are a composite of Amazonian village names I could find in the general area that existed before the arrival of the Spanish. After the Spanish arrived what villages that were not abandoned or destroyed were renamed with European names.

If I get some spare time, I'll try to do a little more diging around and see what I can find.
 
Oh I see, doesn't seem like an easy task to research on them. In this case, the job you already done should be even more appreciated ;)
What about the Yanomami then? I may be wrong, but AFAIK they are from more or less the same area
Wouldn't it be easier to find some appropriate names and background for a native tribe that's still alive?
 
Oh I see, doesn't seem like an easy task to research on them. In this case, the job you already done should be even more appreciated ;)

Thank you again. The research was a little tough but it was fun.:crazyeye:

What about the Yanomami then? I may be wrong, but AFAIK they are from more or less the same area
Wouldn't it be easier to find some appropriate names and background for a native tribe that's still alive?

They are from a close location, slightly north of the Omagua and Machiparo. The biggest issue with the Yanomami is that there was I believe, no documented contact with them before 1929. That would make it really tough to produce a leader bio that would really fit the game. You would have to go on oral tradition and legends. However, I see no reason why the names of some Yanomami villages could not be used. Afterall, most of the names for the Tupi villages are either regional names or names of sub tribes within the greater Tupi family.
 
@team:

Before we go into further discussions about other Native Nations, I think we should clarify the following:

Will we add further Native Nations at all ? :dunno:

Please consider, that

1. We have already added 10 new Native Nations.
(... after the 3 that are currently in work are implemented.)

2. There are not really many good quality leaderheads for Natives around anymore.

3. At some point we should have our list of Native Nations "stable", so work on maps and scenarios can start.

4. Our mod is massive in size because of all the graphics we add.

---------------------

So I suggest one of the following 2 alternatives:

A) We stop adding further Native Nations.
B) We will add 3 more. And if we do, we do this in Release 1.

But after that, I think we should stop adding Native Nations ...

---------------------

Which variant, do you guys prefer ? :)
(Personally, I am fine with both variants.)
 
@team:

Before we go into further discussions about other Native Nations, I think we should clarify the following:

Will we add further Native Nations at all ? :dunno:

Please consider, that

1. We have already added 10 new Native Nations.
(... after the 3 that are currently in work are implemented.)

2. There are not really many good quality leaderheads for Natives around anymore.

3. At some point we should have our list of Native Nations "stable", so work on maps and scenarios can start.

4. Our mod is massive in size because of all the graphics we add.

---------------------

So I suggest one of the following 2 alternatives:

A) We stop adding further Native Nations.
B) We will add 3 more. And if we do, we do this in Release 1.

But after that, I think we should stop adding Native Nations ...

---------------------

Which variant, do you guys prefer ? :)
(Personally, I am fine with both variants.)

I agree with ray's suggestion.

a) As ray said, we already have a lot of new and wonderful native nations in the game. I think a lot of player do not need more native nations obligatory.

Maybe we can consider the idea of new nations after we habe done all other work and suggestions we would like to do.

b) We already have some big nations - espacially North American nations - implemented which stand not only for a tribe but for a family of similar tribes (Sioux, Apache, Iroquois, Algonquian...). If we implement more and more nations in the future, there maybe comes the point we become inconsistent with this approach and maybe we will implement tribes which already belong to a family of tribes who is already implemented.

c) The more tribes we implement the harder it will be to find adequate graphics...
 
@Schmiddie:

So which variant do you prefer ?

A) Stop adding more
B) 3 more - which will definitely be the last
 
@team:

Our 3 new ships are fully implemented now.
Curious to hear your feedback. :)

@Schmiddie:
Thanks for fixing the Europe Screen Graphics. :thumbsup:

Now I am back implementing "Last planned 3 new Native Civs".
(Muisca, Mixtec, Machiparo)

I will probably have them implemented until the weekend. :thumbsup:
(Then Schmiddie can take over again, considering graphics.)

I thought we were talking/discussing to stop implementing new natives?

:dunno::think:
 
I thought we were talking/discussing to stop implementing new natives?

Maybe there was a misunderstanding. :dunno:

I talked about stopping or continuing after the 3 currently in work.
(Mixtec, Muisca, Machiparo.)

1. We have already added 10 new Native Nations.
(... after the 3 that are currently in work are implemented.)

--> Then we will have the 10 Native Nations I was talking about.

They are planned and decided since quite some time ...

We should really integrate the 3 colonialfan has prepared. :thumbsup:

Main Reasons:

A) Balancing of Nations
B) colonialfan has put a lot of work into it.
C) We still have good quality leaderheads for those.
D) I have started working on them myself already

--------------------------

However I wanted to know what to do after that. :)
(Because there were a lot of discussions about other currently unplanned Native Nations going on.)

A) Stop brainstorming and planning further Native Nations
B) Do brainstorming for 3 more which would be the absolute final ones

--> Here decisions seems to be clear to me: A)
 
Personally I think option (A) seems to make more sense. Especiaslly if we are to focus on the first relaese of our mod. I can concentrate on reviewing the interactive language aspect of each nation. Alternatively, I could continue to put my history background to good use and research other things for the team (such as units, professions, etc.,) and compile any needed colopedia info for them.

However, if the team consensus is for option (B), I am more than happy to continue working on researching further civs.
 
If the team really wants Variant B, I would be willing to implement, of course. :)
(Variant B: Brainstorming / Planning 3 more absolutely final new Native Civs - after the ones currently in work.)

3 more - after the ones currently in work - is the absolute limit to me.
(We would have 24 Native Nations in total then.)

But then I would also want to do it in Release 1.
(I really think we should finish up this topic in our first Release.)

However, I would also be fine, if the team said, that 10 new Native Nations (21 in total) is enough.

:dunno:
 
I know I don't get a vote, as I'm not a team member
But I would prefer to have a few more native civs, there are still a couple fairly well-known civs to choose from:
(bolded are the ones I would choose from)

North: Shoshone, Ute, Comanche, Cree, Pueblo/Anasazi, Cheyenne, Seminole
South: Mapuche, Omagua/Cambeba, Chachapoya, Yanomami

Another option is to include a couple very important cultures, which were extinct by the time Europeans explored the continent
This is a game with lots of what-ifs after all:

The mound-builders of the Mississippean culture in North America
Olmec or the semi-mythical Toltec in Central America
Nazca and the Moche in South America
 
I know I don't get a vote, as I'm not a team member

You are still free to give your opinion. :)

But I would prefer to have a few more native civs, there are still a couple fairly well-known civs to choose from:

We already have 10 new Native Nations, meaning 21 in total !
(3 of them currently in work.)

The arguments for not adding too many more Native Nations are heavy however.

-> Balancing
-> Performance (because of all the new graphics)
-> Screens (Diplomacy)
-> Availability of good graphics
...

As I said, if the team really wants to, we could brainstorm and discuss max 3 more from my side.

For everything else, I will put my veto.
(Like every team member can do.)

So the choices are:

A) Stop
B) Brainstorming / planning 3 additional, which will be the absolute final ones

Eventually a team member might even put his veto on variant B.

We will see. :dunno:
 
I said I would prefer A) but I'm open minded.

I have some nice graphics, especially fo North American Tribes we could use. 3 more tribes would be ok. More tribes would be difficult...
 
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