Is Microsoft's end near? - Page 3

Tom|420 · Dec 03, 2012, 03:12 PM

Yes, these numbers were real published numbers, I didn't make them up. 22% drop in sales of Windows as compared to the same period last year. As mentioned, last year was the 3rd year of Windows 7, so the new release should have seen better sales. I believe the drop *is* significant considering it's a new OS, and normally there would be a massive hype regarding a new OS. But there is no hype, people don't like it.

With numbers elsewhere, which I don't remember exactly the source... They say there is no significant drop of PC sales in the last 2 years (something like 2% drop or so), but sales in laptop dropped by 20 to 30% (depending of sources) in favor of tablets. So we can see something changed. People who like desktop PC will still buy desktop PC, but among people who previously used laptops, some of them moved to tablets.

I'm not anti-microsoft, anti-apple or anti-anything. I just check the numbers and make an opinion on that. And I hear what people are saying.

I understand Win8 is the same kernel as Vista/Win7, so yes, I guess it must be a good OS. I know the GUI is just a part of the OS, and I usually judge an OS on many things but the GUI. But let's get this straight, for the most part of the mortals, the GUI is pretty much the most important thing, if they don't like it they don't buy it. If they made an option so to decide between Metro or a regular desktop with a start menu, things would have been better. But if you don't like Metro, you need to make changes in obscure ways (registry), which the common mortal cannot accept, plus you need to buy a third-party software if you want a start menu.

When I said I would stick to Win7, I didn't mean Win8 wasn't good. It's just not what I want. I very satisfied with Win7 and will stick to it. The newer is not always the best to me, I stick with what works well for me and what I like. I didn't like Vista (nice if you did, to everyone their tastes and needs) so I stuck with XP, which was still just fine to me at the time. I don't represent the majority. But I was there at the time of MS-DOS and Windows 3, so I'm not a beginner. I make choices for myself and share my opinions, that's it.

And I respect everyone else's opinion

Zelig · Dec 03, 2012, 03:21 PM

See my second post - it's not a 22% drop in Windows sales (which are up 100%, and will likely settle back to their normal 20 million/month sales within a month or two), that would be catastrophic, it's a 21% drop in retail PC sales in America.

Windows sales are only tenuously tied to releases of Windows, people buy news PCs when they need them, regardless of when a new version of Windows is getting released.

As I detailed in my reply to illram, it's very easy to not use Metro is Win8.

illram · Dec 03, 2012, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zelig

Assuming no third party apps to alter behavior:

Regarding the start screen:
I don't really consider this a Metro app (which it isn't from a technical standpoint), its method of interaction is different from apps (typing vs touching) or the desktop (typing vs pointing), and its multi-app behavior is different from either desktop or Metro apps. (Its a fullscreen launcher overlay, which will cover either multiple desktop or multiple Metro apps.) I don't think the start screen is particularly good, but I don't think the start menu is particularly good either; it's pretty much a wash in usability if you're using them both optimally, by typing program names. Quicksilver is the best launcher I've used for any OS.

Regarding boot behavior:
Default boot location is the start screen. If you put the desktop tile in the first spot on the start screen, you just need to hit enter from the start screen to return to the desktop. Alternatively you can set a task in the task scheduler to go to the desktop on startup.

I don't think even setting the task to run is of much value, quite a lot of work has gone into implementing effective low-power states in Win8, and engineering updates to require fewer reboots, so full shutdown/reboot should be required very infrequently.

Regarding default apps:
Metro apps are set as the default programs for a bunch of file types by default. You can change the default program for any file type to whatever desktop program you want, same as always.

Helpful, thanks. So I have to hit one button upon boot up and change some default programs?

Not a huge deal, sounds like something that could be fine or totally suck depending on how it feels once I actually use it. Might sound petty but it is annoying, to me, that I even have to do anything to just boot to a desktop and use programs only through there, if that's what I want.

The thing for me is, whether the new version is better or not (I trust mostly everyone that says it is, on a technical level) the classic point and click desktop is what me and 99% of the desktop computing world is used to. It works, I know how to use it and make it my own, and I like it. This could be for lack of knowing a better alternative. With that said, is there something superior in the metro UI I am missing, if I am a classic mouse click desktop user? (At least on my home and work computer?)

Zelig · Dec 03, 2012, 04:31 PM

Or instead of hitting the button you can set an event in the task scheduler.

I only use the desktop on my Win8 desktop PC. (Except for the music app, since MS killed the desktop Zune client, but if you're not an xbox music customer, that doesn't matter.) I expect the Metro UI will be significantly improved in the future, but as of now, there's no real reason for mouse/keyboard users to use it.

Mr.WorldWide · Dec 04, 2012, 11:14 AM

Such cheesy Windows 8 commercials on TV, they remind me of PS Move which imo was a failure. Anyone serious about playing a game proficiently wouldn't use it, same goes for Windows 8.

I was insulted.

Zelig · Dec 04, 2012, 12:02 PM

You shouldn't watch TV commercials, they're bad for you.

Mr.WorldWide · Dec 04, 2012, 10:54 PM

I went to a relatives for a thanksgiving party and they had a few TVs going the whole time I was there, it was kinda hard to miss some of the commercials/shows that were on. At home I never watch TV and any movies I have I watch on my PC.

Fallen Angel Lord · Dec 09, 2012, 10:18 PM

I doubt desktops laptops will be replaced by tablets sometime. The point of a tablet is that its small. Not everything works well with the touchscreen. I am far more productive with mouse/keyboard than any touchscreen interface. I mean for one, touchscreen sucks for typing.

If tablets get any bigger, they'll be pointless. I'd much rather just carry around a small 13 or even 15 inch Laptop than a large tablet with a keyboard, a mouse, and a docking station.

Zelig · Dec 09, 2012, 10:28 PM

Touchscreens on laptops are surprisingly useful.

Fallen Angel Lord · Dec 10, 2012, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zelig

Touchscreens on laptops are surprisingly useful.

I've tried them out, your still much faster with the keyboard and mouse. You hand position generally synchs better with mouse and keyboard than with screen and keyboard.

Owen Glyndwr · Dec 10, 2012, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen Angel Lord

I've tried them out, your still much faster with the keyboard and mouse. You hand position generally synchs better with mouse and keyboard than with screen and keyboard.

You can use real keyboards with tablets.

Kaiserguard · Dec 10, 2012, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owen Glyndwr

You can use real keyboards with tablets.

That still leaves gaming.

Zelig · Dec 10, 2012, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen Angel Lord

I've tried them out, your still much faster with the keyboard and mouse. You hand position generally synchs better with mouse and keyboard than with screen and keyboard.

Not as replacements, as complements.

My primary laptop isn't a touchscreen, and after I've been using touchscreen laptops I frequently find myself reaching up to the screen.

Owen Glyndwr · Dec 10, 2012, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zelig

Not as replacements, as complements.

My primary laptop isn't a touchscreen, and after I've been using touchscreen laptops I frequently find myself reaching up to the screen.

Moreover you're much faster with mouse and keyboard because you've grown up on mouse and keyboard. Touchscreen will become faster in the long run as you get used to the interface.

It's like saying Dvorak is an inferior system because your wasteful hunt and peck technique on QWERTY is much faster right now.

Zelig · Dec 10, 2012, 07:07 AM

Oh god it would be amazing if MS, Apple, Canonical and Linux Mint simultaneously dropped QWERTY in favour of Colemak.

Iranon · Dec 10, 2012, 09:00 AM

Familiarity and efficiency are different things. Those who can't tell the difference should try thinking a little before broadcasting their opinions.

Touch input without the likes of a stylus is imprecise, screen position can be ergonomic for either touching or viewing but not both, there is no tactile feedback in current implementations, user obscures part of the screen (s)he's interacting with.

It's very intuitive though, mimicking how we interact with the real world more closely than other methods. Nice for infrequent low-involvement actions that don't require precision.

Zelig · Dec 10, 2012, 09:15 AM

I don't think anybody is that familiarity and efficiency are different things?

Nobody is claiming that touch screen equivalently replaces mice keyboards either, but going back to a non-touchscreen laptop after using a touchscreen, you definitely miss the touch capability.

Mr.WorldWide · Dec 10, 2012, 02:47 PM

Well Zelig, your previous posts had me believing you would applaud if major OS manufacturers scrapped keyboards and mice to make the move to virtual keyboards on a touchscreen then burn down all evil desktops into tablets.

I will admit though when I'm on a laptop there are definitely times when I would use a touchscreen, because to me touchscreen would be infinitely better then the touchpad.

Fallen Angel Lord · Dec 10, 2012, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.WorldWide

Well Zelig, your previous posts had me believing you would applaud if major OS manufacturers scrapped keyboards and mice to make the move to virtual keyboards on a touchscreen then burn down all evil desktops into tablets.

I will admit though when I'm on a laptop there are definitely times when I would use a touchscreen, because to me touchscreen would be infinitely better then the touchpad.

Get a mouse or take one with you, mouse is better than touchscreen or touchpad.

Dec 03, 2012, 03:12 PM	#41
Tom\|420 Warlord Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Quebec, Canada Posts: 103	Yes, these numbers were real published numbers, I didn't make them up. 22% drop in sales of Windows as compared to the same period last year. As mentioned, last year was the 3rd year of Windows 7, so the new release should have seen better sales. I believe the drop is significant considering it's a new OS, and normally there would be a massive hype regarding a new OS. But there is no hype, people don't like it. With numbers elsewhere, which I don't remember exactly the source... They say there is no significant drop of PC sales in the last 2 years (something like 2% drop or so), but sales in laptop dropped by 20 to 30% (depending of sources) in favor of tablets. So we can see something changed. People who like desktop PC will still buy desktop PC, but among people who previously used laptops, some of them moved to tablets. I'm not anti-microsoft, anti-apple or anti-anything. I just check the numbers and make an opinion on that. And I hear what people are saying. I understand Win8 is the same kernel as Vista/Win7, so yes, I guess it must be a good OS. I know the GUI is just a part of the OS, and I usually judge an OS on many things but the GUI. But let's get this straight, for the most part of the mortals, the GUI is pretty much the most important thing, if they don't like it they don't buy it. If they made an option so to decide between Metro or a regular desktop with a start menu, things would have been better. But if you don't like Metro, you need to make changes in obscure ways (registry), which the common mortal cannot accept, plus you need to buy a third-party software if you want a start menu. When I said I would stick to Win7, I didn't mean Win8 wasn't good. It's just not what I want. I very satisfied with Win7 and will stick to it. The newer is not always the best to me, I stick with what works well for me and what I like. I didn't like Vista (nice if you did, to everyone their tastes and needs) so I stuck with XP, which was still just fine to me at the time. I don't represent the majority. But I was there at the time of MS-DOS and Windows 3, so I'm not a beginner. I make choices for myself and share my opinions, that's it. And I respect everyone else's opinion __________________ I am member 40,000

Dec 03, 2012, 03:21 PM	#42
Zelig DUKE OF MAGDEBURG, OF BRE Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 10,113	See my second post - it's not a 22% drop in Windows sales (which are up 100%, and will likely settle back to their normal 20 million/month sales within a month or two), that would be catastrophic, it's a 21% drop in retail PC sales in America. Windows sales are only tenuously tied to releases of Windows, people buy news PCs when they need them, regardless of when a new version of Windows is getting released. As I detailed in my reply to illram, it's very easy to not use Metro is Win8. __________________ Dritarja mbi mjaft pluto, përveç tokës anije rritje shortit duket na e diel drejtuar me vlerë të barabartë me shkrim oh kapur goxha objekt lejojë gravurë shfaqen të tilla humbasin ligjin e përparme me të cilën Distanca moment këndojnë thellë Feed Industrisë Malta song kopsht u bë asia vetë shpresoj dashuroj largët rrokjet takim nuk mund dhomë kënd dëgjoni javën glossary kripë shkroi qese komb ngadalë papritur ndaluar çojë formë qarë ndonjëherë të keqe mbahet trajnimi muaj qeveria prill përpjekje për të mbajtur dublin Xhamajka thotë jordan drejtpërdrejtë puthje përjetë shumë krenar duke notuar game gjuha mund të mbahet brenda makinës oksigjen rezultati vetë orësh shkencës japanese malor qaj Kuba krahas hënës ton trishtuar duhet përgatitur minuta njeriut i përkasin ulem punë tokësore të ushtrisë makinë emocionuese të ngushtë zërin tregojnë as¹

Dec 03, 2012, 04:31 PM	#44
Zelig DUKE OF MAGDEBURG, OF BRE Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 10,113	Or instead of hitting the button you can set an event in the task scheduler. I only use the desktop on my Win8 desktop PC. (Except for the music app, since MS killed the desktop Zune client, but if you're not an xbox music customer, that doesn't matter.) I expect the Metro UI will be significantly improved in the future, but as of now, there's no real reason for mouse/keyboard users to use it. __________________ Dritarja mbi mjaft pluto, përveç tokës anije rritje shortit duket na e diel drejtuar me vlerë të barabartë me shkrim oh kapur goxha objekt lejojë gravurë shfaqen të tilla humbasin ligjin e përparme me të cilën Distanca moment këndojnë thellë Feed Industrisë Malta song kopsht u bë asia vetë shpresoj dashuroj largët rrokjet takim nuk mund dhomë kënd dëgjoni javën glossary kripë shkroi qese komb ngadalë papritur ndaluar çojë formë qarë ndonjëherë të keqe mbahet trajnimi muaj qeveria prill përpjekje për të mbajtur dublin Xhamajka thotë jordan drejtpërdrejtë puthje përjetë shumë krenar duke notuar game gjuha mund të mbahet brenda makinës oksigjen rezultati vetë orësh shkencës japanese malor qaj Kuba krahas hënës ton trishtuar duhet përgatitur minuta njeriut i përkasin ulem punë tokësore të ushtrisë makinë emocionuese të ngushtë zërin tregojnë as¹

Dec 04, 2012, 12:02 PM	#46
Zelig DUKE OF MAGDEBURG, OF BRE Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 10,113	You shouldn't watch TV commercials, they're bad for you. __________________ Dritarja mbi mjaft pluto, përveç tokës anije rritje shortit duket na e diel drejtuar me vlerë të barabartë me shkrim oh kapur goxha objekt lejojë gravurë shfaqen të tilla humbasin ligjin e përparme me të cilën Distanca moment këndojnë thellë Feed Industrisë Malta song kopsht u bë asia vetë shpresoj dashuroj largët rrokjet takim nuk mund dhomë kënd dëgjoni javën glossary kripë shkroi qese komb ngadalë papritur ndaluar çojë formë qarë ndonjëherë të keqe mbahet trajnimi muaj qeveria prill përpjekje për të mbajtur dublin Xhamajka thotë jordan drejtpërdrejtë puthje përjetë shumë krenar duke notuar game gjuha mund të mbahet brenda makinës oksigjen rezultati vetë orësh shkencës japanese malor qaj Kuba krahas hënës ton trishtuar duhet përgatitur minuta njeriut i përkasin ulem punë tokësore të ushtrisë makinë emocionuese të ngushtë zërin tregojnë as¹

Dec 09, 2012, 10:18 PM	#48
Fallen Angel Lord Corporate Fatcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Corporate USA Posts: 9,579	I doubt desktops laptops will be replaced by tablets sometime. The point of a tablet is that its small. Not everything works well with the touchscreen. I am far more productive with mouse/keyboard than any touchscreen interface. I mean for one, touchscreen sucks for typing. If tablets get any bigger, they'll be pointless. I'd much rather just carry around a small 13 or even 15 inch Laptop than a large tablet with a keyboard, a mouse, and a docking station. __________________ Sites I run for the good of humanity: Flash Games -- 10+ new free games each day Tower Defense Strategy Games

Dec 04, 2012, 11:14 AM	#45
Mr.WorldWide Warlord Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Central USA Posts: 248	Such cheesy Windows 8 commercials on TV, they remind me of PS Move which imo was a failure. Anyone serious about playing a game proficiently wouldn't use it, same goes for Windows 8. I was insulted.

Dec 04, 2012, 10:54 PM	#47
Mr.WorldWide Warlord Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Central USA Posts: 248	I went to a relatives for a thanksgiving party and they had a few TVs going the whole time I was there, it was kinda hard to miss some of the commercials/shows that were on. At home I never watch TV and any movies I have I watch on my PC.

Dec 09, 2012, 10:28 PM	#49
Zelig DUKE OF MAGDEBURG, OF BRE Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 10,113	Touchscreens on laptops are surprisingly useful. __________________ Dritarja mbi mjaft pluto, përveç tokës anije rritje shortit duket na e diel drejtuar me vlerë të barabartë me shkrim oh kapur goxha objekt lejojë gravurë shfaqen të tilla humbasin ligjin e përparme me të cilën Distanca moment këndojnë thellë Feed Industrisë Malta song kopsht u bë asia vetë shpresoj dashuroj largët rrokjet takim nuk mund dhomë kënd dëgjoni javën glossary kripë shkroi qese komb ngadalë papritur ndaluar çojë formë qarë ndonjëherë të keqe mbahet trajnimi muaj qeveria prill përpjekje për të mbajtur dublin Xhamajka thotë jordan drejtpërdrejtë puthje përjetë shumë krenar duke notuar game gjuha mund të mbahet brenda makinës oksigjen rezultati vetë orësh shkencës japanese malor qaj Kuba krahas hënës ton trishtuar duhet përgatitur minuta njeriut i përkasin ulem punë tokësore të ushtrisë makinë emocionuese të ngushtë zërin tregojnë as¹

Dec 10, 2012, 07:07 AM	#55
Zelig DUKE OF MAGDEBURG, OF BRE Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 10,113	Oh god it would be amazing if MS, Apple, Canonical and Linux Mint simultaneously dropped QWERTY in favour of Colemak. __________________ Dritarja mbi mjaft pluto, përveç tokës anije rritje shortit duket na e diel drejtuar me vlerë të barabartë me shkrim oh kapur goxha objekt lejojë gravurë shfaqen të tilla humbasin ligjin e përparme me të cilën Distanca moment këndojnë thellë Feed Industrisë Malta song kopsht u bë asia vetë shpresoj dashuroj largët rrokjet takim nuk mund dhomë kënd dëgjoni javën glossary kripë shkroi qese komb ngadalë papritur ndaluar çojë formë qarë ndonjëherë të keqe mbahet trajnimi muaj qeveria prill përpjekje për të mbajtur dublin Xhamajka thotë jordan drejtpërdrejtë puthje përjetë shumë krenar duke notuar game gjuha mund të mbahet brenda makinës oksigjen rezultati vetë orësh shkencës japanese malor qaj Kuba krahas hënës ton trishtuar duhet përgatitur minuta njeriut i përkasin ulem punë tokësore të ushtrisë makinë emocionuese të ngushtë zërin tregojnë as¹

Dec 10, 2012, 09:00 AM	#56
Iranon Deity Whipping Boy Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 3,104	Familiarity and efficiency are different things. Those who can't tell the difference should try thinking a little before broadcasting their opinions. Touch input without the likes of a stylus is imprecise, screen position can be ergonomic for either touching or viewing but not both, there is no tactile feedback in current implementations, user obscures part of the screen (s)he's interacting with. It's very intuitive though, mimicking how we interact with the real world more closely than other methods. Nice for infrequent low-involvement actions that don't require precision. __________________ You can't spell 'analysis' without 'anal'.

Dec 10, 2012, 09:15 AM	#57
Zelig DUKE OF MAGDEBURG, OF BRE Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 10,113	I don't think anybody is that familiarity and efficiency are different things? Nobody is claiming that touch screen equivalently replaces mice keyboards either, but going back to a non-touchscreen laptop after using a touchscreen, you definitely miss the touch capability. __________________ Dritarja mbi mjaft pluto, përveç tokës anije rritje shortit duket na e diel drejtuar me vlerë të barabartë me shkrim oh kapur goxha objekt lejojë gravurë shfaqen të tilla humbasin ligjin e përparme me të cilën Distanca moment këndojnë thellë Feed Industrisë Malta song kopsht u bë asia vetë shpresoj dashuroj largët rrokjet takim nuk mund dhomë kënd dëgjoni javën glossary kripë shkroi qese komb ngadalë papritur ndaluar çojë formë qarë ndonjëherë të keqe mbahet trajnimi muaj qeveria prill përpjekje për të mbajtur dublin Xhamajka thotë jordan drejtpërdrejtë puthje përjetë shumë krenar duke notuar game gjuha mund të mbahet brenda makinës oksigjen rezultati vetë orësh shkencës japanese malor qaj Kuba krahas hënës ton trishtuar duhet përgatitur minuta njeriut i përkasin ulem punë tokësore të ushtrisë makinë emocionuese të ngushtë zërin tregojnë as¹

Dec 10, 2012, 02:47 PM	#58
Mr.WorldWide Warlord Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Central USA Posts: 248	Well Zelig, your previous posts had me believing you would applaud if major OS manufacturers scrapped keyboards and mice to make the move to virtual keyboards on a touchscreen then burn down all evil desktops into tablets. I will admit though when I'm on a laptop there are definitely times when I would use a touchscreen, because to me touchscreen would be infinitely better then the touchpad. __________________ No, you can tell 'em all now, I don't back up, I don't back down I don't fold up and I don't bow, I don't roll over, don't know how I don't care where the enemies are, can't be stopped, all I know - Go Hard!

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