Col II is a Sloppy Product

kovacsflo said:

Even carrying horses or other animals so far away is quite difficult. I'm a food engineer and we studied about carrying chicken to the butchery factories. You must pay attention to several things like enough air condition, keep the tempperature in a medium value and so on. It meant carrying between small distances, not from Europe to America!

Also I'm sure horses need even more attention than chickens.

Click to expand...

And yet I am certain that horses multiplied in the New World without special buildings.

Öjevind Lång;7561599 said:

And yet I am certain that horses multiplied in the New World without special buildings.

Click to expand...

yeah i am with you they would reproduce naturally in the wild.

But I'm going to suggest that they reproduce in the wild in numbers only sufficient to maintain a population (births/deaths equal in number). A stable or ranch helps to protect the creatures from the environment, as well as allowing them some time close together to become more 'intimate'.

.... hence population would likely grow rather than decline.

Horses seems to be a bugbear for a lot of people!
In the latest version of LooF Mod (now v1.4) I've now added an automatic +1 horses/turn for the stables building, and an automatic +2 horses/turn for the ranch.

For balance reasons I have upped the base cost (+ 66% hammers required for stables and ranch), but kept the amount of horses required the same

The biggest issue with horses mechanic in Civ4Col is not if there is free generation or not. Or if it eats food or not.

It's that ranchers just have poor horse production. With basic stable, which needs to be build by carpenter, they produce just 2 horses. Compare that to first upgrade to shops, that allows untrained workers to convert 6 raw materials to 6 manufactured goods.

Horse production is 3 times less effective, plus it eats a strategic resource: food.


IMHO, basic stables should allow untrained ranchers to convert 6 food to 6 horses. And "upgraded" stables should function similar to factories and give +50% extra horses (so 9 horses for 6 food).

player1 fanatic said:

The biggest issue with horses mechanic in Civ4Col is not if there is free generation or not. Or if it eats food or not.

It's that ranchers just have poor horse production. With basic stable, which needs to be build by carpenter, they produce just 2 horses. Compare that to first upgrade to shops, that allows untrained workers to convert 6 raw materials to 6 manufactured goods.

Horse production is 3 times less effective, plus it eats a strategic resource: food.


IMHO, basic stables should allow untrained ranchers to convert 6 food to 6 horses. And "upgraded" stables should function similar to factories and give +50% extra horses (so 9 horses for 6 food).

Click to expand...

I absolutely agree with you in this question, but we discussed this production problem earlier. Also the needed 50 horses for a stable is unfair IMO. Even with a master rancher you need about 8 turns to produce as many horses as you had before building the stable! It is similar if a blacksmith's shop would need 12x8=116 tools!

And in the original the Dutch had a historical correct Stadtholder, in this Col they have a King. It was the Republic of United Netherlands. Not a monarchy/Empire/whatever.

Tavenier said:

And in the original the Dutch had a historical correct Stadtholder, in this Col they have a King. It was the Republic of United Netherlands. Not a monarchy/Empire/whatever.

Click to expand...

You mean that while colonizing the New World you already left behind monarchy?

Btw, I was always wandering what does a dutch think about that you can't play with Portugal while you can with netherlands. Honestly, don't you think that Portugal had biggest role in colonizing the New World than the Netherlands?

Merry Christmas to everyone

Yes, the uprising against Spain united the seven Dutch provinces and each of them had a Stadtholder. The most powerful one was that of the province Holland (that's why a lot of languages name the Netherlands Holland, while that is only a part of the country). And the Stadtholder (stadhouder means something like placeholder, a person who would rule instead of the king) was chosen by the rich merchants and other important people.

I don't know what the Dutch think, but I as a Dutch man think that Portugal and the Netherlands were about evenly important. Portugal ruled Brazil, which is now the biggest country of Latin America. The Netherlands ruled Brazil too, along with Surinam and six islands (which today still are Dutch: Curacoa, Bonaire, Aruba, St Maarten, Saba, Sint Eustatius) and most importantly, the Dutch founded probably the most important modern city, New York. And left a lot of influence there, like Wall Street. Also the word Dollar comes from the Dutch word Daalder.

Gamewise however I think that next to England, France and Spain the Netherlands are more distinctive than Portugal. Portugal is in a way relatively similar to Spain. If Germany existed in those days and was a big colonizer and Spain wasn't, then probably Portugal would be more distinctive.

Tavenier said:

Yes, the uprising against Spain united the seven Dutch provinces and each of them had a Stadtholder. The most powerful one was that of the province Holland (that's why a lot of languages name the Netherlands Holland, while that is only a part of the country).

Click to expand...

I haven't known that, I add that Hungarian language calls your country Hollandia.

Tavenier said:

I don't know what the Dutch think, but I as a Dutch man think that Portugal and the Netherlands were about evenly important. Portugal ruled Brazil, which is now the biggest country of Latin America. The Netherlands ruled Brazil too, along with Surinam and six islands (which today still are Dutch: Curacoa, Bonaire, Aruba, St Maarten, Saba, Sint Eustatius) and most importantly, the Dutch founded probably the most important modern city, New York. And left a lot of influence there, like Wall Street. Also the word Dollar comes from the Dutch word Daalder.

Gamewise however I think that next to England, France and Spain the Netherlands are more distinctive than Portugal. Portugal is in a way relatively similar to Spain. If Germany existed in those days and was a big colonizer and Spain wasn't, then probably Portugal would be more distinctive.

Click to expand...

I think this question should focus on the size and population of colonies. So I agree that Netherlands has a big role in colonization but without big colonies.

Also if I think over your ideas about gamewise, your point of view seems more acceptable, especially for the original game.

All in all, the game system of the new game should allow (at least) five colonizating countries. There are 5 kind of FF-s and just 4 countries. We don"t have a country which have advantage in Exploration, while it is a kind of FF. Yes, starting with a merchantman is an advantage, but not too much (in exploration).

Both gameplay and history should let Portugal to act in the game having some kind of bonus in exploration.

kovacsflo said:

I think this question should focus on the size and population of colonies. So I agree that Netherlands has a big role in colonization but without big colonies.

Also if I think over your ideas about gamewise, your point of view seems more acceptable, especially for the original game.

All in all, the game system of the new game should allow (at least) five colonizating countries. There are 5 kind of FF-s and just 4 countries. We don"t have a country which have advantage in Exploration, while it is a kind of FF. Yes, starting with a merchantman is an advantage, but not too much (in exploration).

Both gameplay and history should let Portugal to act in the game having some kind of bonus in exploration.

Click to expand...

Im in aggreement on this one, and tried to give Portugal the bonuses for exploration in LooF (the two leaders giving -50% horse requirement for scouts, and +1 movement for ships). I'm hoping to persuade Dale to keep something similar in the new combi-mod

jenks said:

Im in aggreement on this one, and tried to give Portugal the bonuses for exploration in LooF (the two leaders giving -50% horse requirement for scouts, and +1 movement for ships). I'm hoping to persuade Dale to keep something similar in the new combi-mod

Click to expand...

The bonuses you mentioned focus on exploration what is OK but these aren't seems strong bonuses. Maybe we should add the exploration II (or maybe I)bonus to all scouts.

I'm happy to look into an exploration Civ trait for Portugal.

I think kovacsflo hit the nail on the head though, Exp I & II should be free for Portuguese units.

I'm not sure about the +1 movement for ships, I'd rather focus on their trade abilities for ships by leaving them with the carrack (3 cargo not 2).

Dale said:

I'm happy to look into an exploration Civ trait for Portugal.

I think kovacsflo hit the nail on the head though, Exp I & II should be free for Portuguese units.

I'm not sure about the +1 movement for ships, I'd rather focus on their trade abilities for ships by leaving them with the carrack (3 cargo not 2).

Click to expand...

Thank you

About the ships, maybe not their all ships, just the carracks should have the +1 movement, since other ships rather result bonus in trade rather than in exploration. Because of the same reason I think +1 cargo to carracks wouldn't be a good bonus.

I just think Portugal should be in the game, but they shouldn't have ultimate bonuses But bonuses which help you in exploration.

player1 fanatic said:

The biggest issue with horses mechanic in Civ4Col is not if there is free generation or not. Or if it eats food or not.

It's that ranchers just have poor horse production. With basic stable, which needs to be build by carpenter, they produce just 2 horses. Compare that to first upgrade to shops, that allows untrained workers to convert 6 raw materials to 6 manufactured goods.

Horse production is 3 times less effective, plus it eats a strategic resource: food.


IMHO, basic stables should allow untrained ranchers to convert 6 food to 6 horses. And "upgraded" stables should function similar to factories and give +50% extra horses (so 9 horses for 6 food).

Click to expand...

In marathon (the only mode I've played) it takes 150 horses to make a scout or dragoon. This means that a Colonist represents about 150 people.

A single colonist eats 2 food per turn. Apparently, two single horses require the same amount of food as 150 people? Or am I not figuring this correctly?

I think a rancher should be able to produce horses at a factory ratio with the tier one building, and then get some sort of bonus on top of this afterwards. I like the game, a lot, but it really takes too long to produce horses in any meaningful way unless you specifically go inland, find a slot with lots of food, and make a ranch colony.

Gothic_Empire said:

In marathon (the only mode I've played) it takes 150 horses to make a scout or dragoon. This means that a Colonist represents about 150 people.

A single colonist eats 2 food per turn. Apparently, two single horses require the same amount of food as 150 people? Or am I not figuring this correctly?

Click to expand...

Not quite correct. All colonists can hunt/farm/scavenge for enough food for themselves, and do so when not based in a city.

It is only Working colonists who consume 2 food per turn, and I put this down the cost of giving them one task for the year, forcing the person into settling into a profession and developing/feeding a family

On an aside, I generally think that a colonist represents about a hundred people. Which seems to fit when you remember that horses are a good measured in tonnes not pure numbers...

Using your theory on pure costing of horses and colonists, a single colonist actually costs 200 food before you get a new one (that is at normal speed - probably more in Marathon), yet the horses required to make that colonist a scout/dragoon only cost 50 tonnes of food.

Effectively the proportion is 1 person eats enough food for 4 tonnes of horses, not 1 horse eats 75 persons food.

Gothic_Empire said:

I think a rancher should be able to produce horses at a factory ratio with the tier one building, and then get some sort of bonus on top of this afterwards. I like the game, a lot, but it really takes too long to produce horses in any meaningful way unless you specifically go inland, find a slot with lots of food, and make a ranch colony.

Click to expand...

Stables are very cheap structures in vanilla (cost only 30), so you could say you get what you pay for!

I disagree with the point though, but I have been playing with my customized stables (+1 free horses) and ranches (+2 free horses) from LooF mod. I generaly build at least a stable in every coastal town, and have a good steady stream of horses coming in.

I'd like to see this automatic building bonus implemented in AODII - it represents natural breeding in an enclosed small stable/large ranch area, though to balance, the cost of both structures needs increasing slightly from vanilla.

If people still feel this harshly about it I'd consider a +25% bonus to stables, +50% bonus to ranches, but again the costs of the initial buildings would need increasing.

brianshapiro said:

Bizarrely, its possible to have a ranch and gain horses per turn, without having any horses to start with.

Click to expand...

The Stable requires 50 horses to be built so we can presume ranchers use those horses to augment the population.

Welcome to the Forums fcolmenarez.

Thank you Supr49er!!

Gothic_Empire said:

In marathon (the only mode I've played) it takes 150 horses to make a scout or dragoon. This means that a Colonist represents about 150 people.

A single colonist eats 2 food per turn. Apparently, two single horses require the same amount of food as 150 people? Or am I not figuring this correctly?

I think a rancher should be able to produce horses at a factory ratio with the tier one building, and then get some sort of bonus on top of this afterwards. I like the game, a lot, but it really takes too long to produce horses in any meaningful way unless you specifically go inland, find a slot with lots of food, and make a ranch colony.

Click to expand...

I simply do not think horses and humans should compete for food. I find that decidedly not fun.