Current (SVN) development discussion thread

so i decided to try out phoenicia just to see how they played... (and i know they arent up to DoC specs yet)

so some things are horribly wrong.

1) weird trade things/underwhelming UP/UB: so I have Kition (founded on copper on Crete), Carthage, and Carthago Nova, and Great Lighthouse. this should mean 3 trade routes per city! I have open borders with greece, egypt, and persia, so there are lots of choices for these routes. by my count, i should be earning 21 gold per turn from trade (based on the provided totals in the city screen) yet i'm losing 3 gpt! in the interior advisor screen, I am told that this cost is due to city maintenance costs of... 3gpt. and thats it! when i WB'd in glasssmiths to all 3 cities, my income (with 4 routes per city) rose to... -3 gpt! STILL! so it seems that not only does the UP kinda suck, but the UB does as well! I get that the commerce goes to science, but still. it feels like my trade routes are worthless, especially as city maintenance eats up almost half my profits.

2) useless UU: the bireme is sorta better than a galley, but absolutely worse than a trireme... against both galleys and triremes. and i'll only ever have to deal with triremes anyway, whether barb, roman, or greek. even if i have to face a galley, theres no reason not to use triremes. and since the Poeni are dependent on trade, ill have OB with everyone anyway, negating the other facet of the bireme.

3) UHV's: 1) control 5 cities: between levant, africa, spain, and need for dyes, easy enough. 2) control 4 dyes: this is actually pretty tough, since only 2 dyes are consistently easily available. its pretty common that egypts dye is free, but you will NEED to fight rome (or persia) for the last dye in the accessible world. and while this is good, its extremely hard right now, as ill get to. 3) biggest map: easy, but meh.

suggestions:

UP: trade routes generate gold instead of/in addition to commerce. im not sure which is better, but essentially carthage/phoenicia should be rich, not necessarily advanced. so i think gold over commerce should work for this.

UB: Why glasssmith? I dont think that phoenician glass was as big as the purple industry anyway, so why is this the UB? I think an interesting idea would be to have the UB as "Temple of Baal" which replaces the pagan temple and provides +1 trade routes. it would be available earlier (so it would actually be useful) and would be more in line with the theme of phoenicia (while still having essentially the same effect as the glasssmith)

UU: while i understand the desire to use a ship UU, i dont see it as that realistic. phoenician ships/crews werent THAT much better than greek counterparts, though there were marginally better. And while i think the current UU does capture this unimpressive distinction, i think there are more interesting units to use. I would not use an elephant replacement, because they didnt really make that big a difference/werent that unique to carthage. I wouldnt use Numid. merc's, because Rome used them just as effectively (maybe add this unit to the mercenary pool?) Instead i would use the "Sacred Band", a spearman replacement with +1 strength (5 total) and the amphibious promotion. seems useful, interesting, and accurate. OR a swordsman replacement (even if spearman graphics) without the city attack bonus, but +1 strength (so 7) and amphibious. The latter would probably be better, as it would sync up with carthaginian dates better (ie you'd have to research iron working) and it would give carthage a chance against Rome while not being overpowered or guaranteeing victory.

UHV's:
1) found 5 coastal medit. cities (rather than just control... i think this represents phoenician colonization better) by 100 BCE... seems reasonable
2) I like the dye UHV too... i say keep it as is. with the UU, UB, and UP changes, this should be more fun and feasible.
3) control the entire western med. by say... 300 AD. or Eliminate Rome.

(i think all these dates are sorta off... the phoenicians should spawn in 1000 bce, not 1200. they should really have to colonize by say, 300 BCE, and they should have to eliminate Rome/control the Med by 100 BCE. I know this makes them a very short play, but i think that would be exciting!)

what do you think of these proposed changes?

Why don't you just turn science slider down? What are you trying to say?
 
i know i can, and i know thats an option. but again, i dont think phoenicia/carthage is ever rich enough. and the uninfluenced (by slider) income of "gold" (like what the merchant specialist produces) will be greater than the dependent income of "commerce" (tile yields)
 
The problem, balance-wise, is that if Trade Routes and yields directly accounted for Gold, your net gain would be astronomical; you'd just have more Gold to keep your slider at 100% in perpetuity. Although I agree about the Bireme.

How about this?

Bireme: (Regular Galley stats)
-Persistent Free Barb win effect.
 
point taken about balance with the UP... still seems like something more is needed though. maybe a mini-corp for dyes called "Purple Industry" or something?

as for the bireme... that seems overly deterministic. and still sorta lame. i think its ok to represent carthage too, not just the cities of the northern levant.
 
Bireme: (Regular Galley stats)
-Persistent Free Barb win effect.

Even against privateers in the late game ? Wouldn't a +100% (or 200% for all it matters) against barbarians be sufficient ? It would be enough to counter the Galley and Trireme barbs of the Classical and medieval era, but you'd have to go with galleys to survive in the late game.
 
Well, we have a thread on this subforum that proves that People sometimes try to win by other means than the UHV, so you must think about them :)
Although I also always go for the UHV, DoC (and RFC in general) does not end with UHV victories, and it's true that if I do a 3000BC start, I'd like to be able to destroy Carthage's Biremes with my privateers (as China or Japan for example).
 
Even against privateers in the late game ? Wouldn't a +100% (or 200% for all it matters) against barbarians be sufficient ? It would be enough to counter the Galley and Trireme barbs of the Classical and medieval era, but you'd have to go with galleys to survive in the late game.

Heh, I didn't think of that, but it would certainly be godlike.
We can reduce it to just Galleys & Triremes then.
Still, don't tell me you've never thought of those old movies
where the guys in the row boat sneak onto the pirate ship
and wreak havoc. I seriously think a Persistent Free Barb win effect
would make a lot of people love Phoenicia though.

If there's anything that people hate, hate, hate in BtS,
it's Barb navies. This will help mitigate a lot of the stress,
and simultaneously simulate a superior navy without overpowering
the rival Roman & Greek navies too much in capability.
 
Fair point AdrienIer.

I do read all those forums and have done domination victories myself... but ive been under the impression that the game is designed and balanced for UHV play... thats why the other choices are so interesting, because they are examples of winning that the game was NOT tuned to accommodate.

with this in mind, I was never for the invincible bireme! i still think the "sacred band" unit i proposed would be better.
 
Are we not making the game too deterministic if we're guaranteeing certain things to happen, like the Mongols have to collapse at a certain point? I like historical accuracy but I also like games where things can pan out differently in each game
 
Guys, are you active today. I can only barely keep up so excuse me if my replies are short.

For the Spain/Mongolia problem, I agree that forced collapses are not the solution. But I think that both of them are a little too much on the safe side of stability when they're at their largest (and have survived a critical phase in Mongolia's case).

On Phoenicia, thanks for the detailed feedback King Coltrane. Phoenicia definitely needs and will get some changes until a new version is released (they're technically part of Europe which is the focus of this version after all). I like your proposed UHV changes, and actually would have no problem to let their historical game be a short one.

I chose the Glasssmith to represent Carthage's aptitude in producing white glass. I'm not particularly invested into this UB but won't change it to a pagan temple replacement simply because there are so many of them already.

I also like your Sacred Band suggestion, actually, especially the Amphibious promotion. It keeps with the naval orientation of the civ without being a useless ship replacement like the current one.

That said, I'm still half-tempted to revert them to Carthage, actually :mischief:
 
another idea from another mod: like the Ghorids-Delhi transition in SoI, if Phoenicia is human, founding Carthage is part of the UHVs, if not human, they collapse and respawn in Carthage. that way everyone gets the enemy civ they need to make the game interesting (Phoenica for Greece and Babylon, Carthage for Rome). you can give Carthage a nice boost with their respawn units so they are a bit of a threat to Rome. Owning the richest city in the Mediterranean (most commerce/turn?) would be a good goal that would encourage founding Carthage and making it your capital (maybe buff the site just a little so its obviously the best free spot) without forcing it.
 
Yeah, that sounds good too. Phoenicia/Carthage really needs some closer attention, there's still a lot of potential.
 
glad you like the Sacred Band idea... it occurred to me that there actually werent any other swordsman UU's (other than rome of course), and since carthage is basically relevant to the same period, why not put them in? also, i'll admit, the idea has its roots in civ3, where Rhye's mod had both a bireme AND this unit (though civ3 called it a numidian mercenary for some unknown reason).

i do like having the civ exist as phoenicia, since it gives you a vested interest in the eastern med. that said, the focus should (and usually does) shift to the western med. i do like srpt's idea about owning the richest city in the med. it gels nicely with everything else that's going on, including trade, medit. domination, etc.

and i understand your point for the pagan temple replacement... no worries. ill try to think of something else too. (though ill admit i have nothing right now)

just to get the ball rolling with the discussion, i think the UB should represent one of 3 facets of phoenician/carthaginian culture:

1) naval warfare
2) trade
3) colonization
4) culture

i think the 4th is sorta unnecessary given what else we have in the mod. I also dont want to have a building that simply gives combat promotions to ships (seems underwhelming). and colonization... although its part of the UHV, I dont know how to help with that through a building. so it does seem to me like trade is the way to go. i think walls, harbors, lighthouses (though this is a bit late perhaps) and forges are all viable options for a UB replacement.
 
Guys, are you active today. I can only barely keep up so excuse me if my replies are short.

I have a lecture class on Tuesdays, which mostly amounts to looking at illustrations of half-naked women every half minute or so and the history of rendering said subject.
And constant Wifi, so yes, I'll be active on Tuesdays. :)

Speaking of which, I have two recommendations for American Great Artists:

-Howard Pyle: Widely considered the grandfather of American illustration.
-James Montgomery Flagg: Famous for his self-portrait that he used for the "I Want You!" recruitment poster.
 
i think the 4rd is sorta unnecessary given what else we have in the mod. I also dont want to have a building that simply gives combat promotions to ships (seems underwhelming). and colonization... although its part of the UHV, I dont know how to help with that through a building. so it does seem to me like trade is the way to go. i think walls, harbors, lighthouses (though this is a bit late perhaps) and forges are all viable options for a UB replacement.
Yep, I actually think that the current effect is appropriate, and tech requirements for UBs can be changed regardless of their base building, so it really comes down to flavor here.
 
good point. in which case, perhaps we keep glasssmith and just move it to iron working? it would synergize well with the Sacred Band unit as well. do you think this would be too powerful? as it is I think phoenicia is too weak as the AI, but can actually be quite powerful in human hands. maybe we make it available with iron working, +2 trade routes (rather than one) but only a +10% production modifier? this would fit well with the trade theme anyway.

in the game i played earlier i had around 12 elephants (plus a handful of cats, axemen and spearmen and a navy to transport them) by the end which i used to take sicily, garrison africa, counter the roman mandate army in spain, and conquer the greeks because they had the biggest map somehow. (turned out someone else still had a bigger one, so i lost.)

point is, carthage can become a BEAST in the right hands. i would never have been able to take down Rome (or maybe i would have? didnt bother trying haha) but if i had so much more production earlier, it might have been possible. i think this would just need tuning.
 
Yes, Iron Working is a possibility. +2 trade routes is too much, though, imo +1 is already a very powerful effect.
 
A few things about the art studio:

-Drop it's +1:yuck:. It's not that good an UB, and it'll be marginally better by doing so.

-... Maybe you ought to change the +25:culture: to +25 procent culture, like you probably intended it to be.
 
Oh, yes :lol:
 
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