War of the Spanish Succession

Patine

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Whilst I leave my Fall Gelb idea fallow for a bit to allow inspiration to generate, I had thought of trying my hand at the War of the Spanish Succession as my next project, especially given fairline's recent (relatively speaking) set of units for it. Although I had considered merging it into the roughly concurrent Great Northern War into one scenario, I decided against that due to the complete lack of any real connection other than contemporary time period, no attractive way to group the myriad nations into an attractive seven civilizations, and not being able to fit all of the units I would have liked to see in such a scenario into one ToT units, EVEN if TNO succeeds at adding another row. So, the Great Northern War may be a separate project I'll embark upon in the future. For now, I still need a few unit graphics, and some (like the Portuguese, whose units were taken from a Napoleonic era collection due to current lack of other representation) may need their uniforms and firearms 'downgraded' to turn of the 18th Century levels, and I'm debating between using the best trans-Atlantic map I've map (though I will have to bug someone in that case who can actually get Carl Fritz' MapEdit utility to work on their computer (it refuses to work on my Windows 8 64-bit computer despite numerous attempts at 'compatibility modes' and such) to crop just two dimensions axiomatically, and I could do the rest on my version of Civ2 MGE's endemic Map Editor), but the map in that case will end up rather smallish. Another idea is one map for the Western Europe theatre and a separate map (using ToT multimapping) for the eastern part of North America where that theatre was fought. The advantage is that I could limit the British and French players to just actually building Colonial Militia, Indian Allies, and maybe a light form of cavalry, as military units go, but restrict the building of militia and Indian Allies by those two powers in Europe. The disadvantage is I'd have to make sure both maps had EXACTLY the same dimensions for it to be workable, and I've never successfully created a previous multimap scenario, so I completely lack practical experience in it. Other than that, I have a good general idea on how this will play out. I haven't decided whether my PoV civ will be the Two Crowns Alliance or the British, but I'm definitely thinking one of those two (the others likely wouldn't be as much fun to play). Any commentary is welcome.
 
Who should be the playable PoV civ, the Sun King or the Queen of the Augustan Era (fully expects a bias from McMonkey)?
 
The totality of seven civilizations I currently have in mind is the Bourbon-dominated Two Crowns Alliance, made up of France, the Bourbon Spanish faction, France's Native American allied tribes, and his two small allies of the Electorate of Bavaria and the County of Mantua; the British (starting the scenario as the English and Scottish still as separate nations but under the personal union of Anne until 1707), which also rules Ireland as a vassal kingdom and also has Native American allied tribes (I've also given them control of Portugal due to a historically strong alliance and the fact that Britain has often bolstered their military); the Dutch Republic; the Duchy of Savoy; the Habsburg Monarchy; Prussia; and the Iroquois Confederacy (who seemed to play a third side in the North American theatre in that war, actively hostile to both the British and French and their Native allies). All of the small nations that were uninvolved but happen to fall on the map (such as Genoa, for instance), will just be barbarian cities with immobile defenders, as has been a long-standing tradition in Civ 2 scenarios. Any input on this set-up is welcome and encouraged.
 
Actually, on second thought, I'll likely lump Savoy and Portugal into one civ, instead of putting Portugal with Britain, as I've just been remade aware that both Savoy and Portugal were browbeaten by Louis XIV into a "treaty of support," that neither were overly enthusiastic or sincere about, but too afraid of Louis to go against him until about a year into the war after the Grand Alliance won several initial successes, at which time they both then declared their support for the Grand Alliance. That shared status as well as timing of entering the fray make it much more logical to just pair them into one civ.
 
It might be easier, given the selection of pre-made maps I currently have, if I had four instead of two maps, to actually match their dimensions - the "Charles.mp" I mentioned in my last post in the Fall Gelb thread for the Western German, Low Countries, Northwestern France, and, if Louis XIV did better than historically, a theoretical British Iles invasion theatre, then an Iberian Peninsula map for the battle over Spain (which, obstensibly was what the war was supposed to ultimately be about), then, an Italy map for the battle over Northern Italy between France and Austria joined fully by Savoy, which COULD have spread to the Southern parts, especially if Britain had been able and willing to lend naval support to Austria and Savoy, and, finally, the map used in Civ2Units' scenario American War of Independence, which is about right in scope (though the Middle American parts are a bit extraneous but not aggregious). These maps are roughly the same size as each other I'd only need to get someone who could get Carl Fritz' CivEdit utility working on their computer to do minimal cropping than I would to get just an Eastern North America and Western Europe maps as two maps matched up and of satisfactory size in and of themselves. The thing is, I'm not yet sure how I would manage inter-map travel in that light. If anyone with experience with multi-map would like to offer some guidance, I'm fully open to listen.
 
Anyone have any suggestions or thoughts on these initial ideas?

P.S. McMonkey, I hope I didn't offend the "biased opinion," remark. It was actually meant as just a light-hearted jab, especially given you "struggling" a few months ago to be willing create a single-player Napoleonic scenario from a French rather than British perspective and having to be convinced of the benefits of the former. It was just a playful joke. I really meant no offense if you actually did any (I might just be being paranoid).
 
In terms of intended player civ, I'd thought that Louis XIV's Two Crowns Alliance, much like Napoleon in a full campaign European scenario, would likely be more active on all fronts, but it seems from the general layout of forces and such at that time, such a perspective might be far too easy. I may make two separate events.txt files, like some scenario designers have done, one for the Two Crowns Alliance and one for the British, though I'm not yet certain on that, though those are the two candidates for PoV civ in the running definitely.

The other big decision is the layout of maps, as I stated above. Other than these two (which I'll definitely resolve before formally laying firm plans on progression), most other big decisions are tentatively made, though it need be, some of those can be changed as well. I have a fairly good idea at this point on what units I'd like to include in this scenario, as well.
 
This sounds just my cup of tea ;)

I'm with McM on not having a squished world map - it would be interesting to see either a multi-map with separate theatres of war as he suggests, or a single map perhaps focusing on the low countries, eastern France and the German states which would focus on the Marlborian phase of the war. In any case, good luck with this!

If you took the latter approach a single civ for Britain and the Netherlands would be appropriate, perhaps making it a democracy so that the player has to contend with political interference in their warmaking as the real Marlborough and Eugene did
 
In terms of intended player civ, I'd thought that Louis XIV's Two Crowns Alliance, much like Napoleon in a full campaign European scenario, would likely be more active on all fronts, but it seems from the general layout of forces and such at that time, such a perspective might be far too easy. I may make two separate events.txt files, like some scenario designers have done, one for the Two Crowns Alliance and one for the British, though I'm not yet certain on that, though those are the two candidates for PoV civ in the running definitely.

I'm not sure it would be terribly interesting to play as the French in this time-period. The British and Northern Protestant states were in the ascendant at the expense of a waning France in the WSS. I'd rather play as the French in the earlier part of Louis' reign in the late 17th cent.
 
Although I certainly do agree that the Low Countries, Northeast France, and Western Germany were the heart of affairs, I would also like to touch upon the North American theatre, but I do think that maybe those two maps, if done in a workable multi-map, would probably sufficient, as it seems the Northwestern Italian theatre, while it had exciting moments, doesn't seem to have been a major front. Also, on review of material, you are right about an Anglo-Dutch player potentially being more interesting (as well as being better run as a single player, given Marlborough was given Commander-in-Chief privileges over all Anglo-Dutch forces, and the Dutch seemed in political disarray; hence why you suggested a Democracy, it seems).

Is there any chance I could request a Mantuan and Cologne (I'm not sure the proper denonym for someone from Cologne), Louis' only allies along with Bavaria in an otherwise almost completely hostile Holy Roman Empire, basic infantry and cavalry each? I think those are the only real holes in my units available at this time.

But thank-you for the interest and input. I will certainly cogitate on this.
 
Although I certainly do agree that the Low Countries, Northeast France, and Western Germany were the heart of affairs, I would also like to touch upon the North American theatre, but I do think that maybe those two maps, if done in a workable multi-map, would probably sufficient, as it seems the Northwestern Italian theatre, while it had exciting moments, doesn't seem to have been a major front. Also, on review of material, you are right about an Anglo-Dutch player potentially being more interesting (as well as being better run as a single player, given Marlborough was given Commander-in-Chief privileges over all Anglo-Dutch forces, and the Dutch seemed in political disarray; hence why you suggested a Democracy, it seems).

My thinking here was the fact that although nominally Marlborough was commander in chief of the Dutch as well as Brits, the Dutch states general politicos had a veto on the use of their troops outside the Netherlands, and apparently meddled in affairs regarding the use of the army generally. Marlborough had to hide the fact he was heading for Bavaria both from the French and Dutch politicians..

Is there any chance I could request a Mantuan and Cologne (I'm not sure the proper denonym for someone from Cologne), Louis' only allies along with Bavaria in an otherwise almost completely hostile Holy Roman Empire, basic infantry and cavalry each? I think those are the only real holes in my units available at this time.

But thank-you for the interest and input. I will certainly cogitate on this.

Kölner apparently! :)

I'll have to find out what they and the Mantuans looked like, but happy to draw them
 
P.S. McMonkey, I hope I didn't offend the "biased opinion," remark. It was actually meant as just a light-hearted jab, especially given you "struggling" a few months ago to be willing create a single-player Napoleonic scenario from a French rather than British perspective and having to be convinced of the benefits of the former. It was just a playful joke. I really meant no offense if you actually did any (I might just be being paranoid).

No offence taken Pat. You can be as rough with the teasing as you like. We all know its done in good humour! :D
 
@fairline - That reason for Democracy makes definite sense. I was actually thinking, since your Dutch infantry and cavalry for WSS come in two uniform colours, with no marker on the units otherwise, unless my ignorance greatly misses something much more profound, I had thought that one of the two types would be used for those of Orangist Provinces, with a slightly higher att vs. def stat ratio and have a home city of NONE (thus, not causing unhappiness for being away, but could still trigger forced peace), and the other would be for those of Staatsgezinden Provinces, and would have a slightly higher def vs. att stat ratio and would be bound to a home city. Do you think that'd be a workable mechanic?

Also, if you can create those units, it'd be greatly appreciated!

@McMonkey - That's great to know! Forgive my paranoia; I've just run into a lot of thin-skinned people on the Internet in my day (though, I must admit, the SL has by far, been one of the online communities with the least such people I've come across).
 
I think it helps that we primarily stick to the topic of Civ2. If we were all on the Off Topic forums then debates could become more heated. In fact, during all the years of posting here, Nicheal is the only objectionable character I have come across.
 
@Drew: He was a 'card' wasn't he? ;)

@Patine: I give up I'm afraid - I can't find any sources for Cologne or Mantua for this period. If you can find something let me know and I'll draw them
 
...I was actually thinking, since your Dutch infantry and cavalry for WSS come in two uniform colours, with no marker on the units otherwise, unless my ignorance greatly misses something much more profound, I had thought that one of the two types would be used for those of Orangist Provinces, with a slightly higher att vs. def stat ratio and have a home city of NONE (thus, not causing unhappiness for being away, but could still trigger forced peace), and the other would be for those of Staatsgezinden Provinces, and would have a slightly higher def vs. att stat ratio and would be bound to a home city. Do you think that'd be a workable mechanic?

The guys in blue are the Blue Guard and the ones in grey are regular chappies. The Dutch still had different coloured coats amongst their infantry regiments, with grey predominant; I guess your idea is fine
 
@Patine: I give up I'm afraid - I can't find any sources for Cologne or Mantua for this period. If you can find something let me know and I'll draw them

If you are looking for uniforms from this period maybe this site will help:

http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/...lection-of-military-uniforms#/?tab=navigation
On this site you will find tons of uniform pictures, mostly from the 18th to late 19th century.

Here are the pictures for Cologne of the 18th century. I´m afraid these are not the uniforms from 1701-1704:
http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47e1-f580-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99
http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47e1-f582-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99
http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47e1-f583-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99
 
I suppose Civ2's link is the closest we have for now for Cologne. Although, I have no idea what to do about Mantua...

After more research on the war itself, I plan on just having two large maps - one covering eastern France, the Low Countries, western Germany, northwestern Italy (including Savoy), and the southwestern corner of the UK (Kent, Norfolk, etc.). The other map will be very close to the map from the French and Indian Wars scenario gapetit recently converted (preferably that very map if it can be made to match the dimensions of the European map). The 'transporter' improvement will be called the Port of Call and be unbuildable, and only pre-placed in major ports on either side of the Atlantic. Most major ships will have native teleport capability, but, being naval units, can only 'teleport' from sea space on one map to sea space on another. I believe that should cover the entire war that was at all meaningful.
 
Just back from hols, and glad to see an interesting discussion on a great topic. Nice choice, Patine. I look forward to it.

I agree with maps for Europe and North America, but perhaps add a third one. Europe, N. America, and an inter-connector? Ship units (and cargoes) could only move between maps via specific paths on the 3rd map. Differences in scale could be compensated for by increasing movement costs for terrain on the larger scale map (though not sea movement costs). My thought is that it took time to cross the Atlantic, and you could build that in with a third map.
 
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