End of Empires - N3S III

You beat the Satar due to an incredibly lucky stroke, after the Satar defeated the most powerful empire in the world, the Trilui. And Faron. And the Hu'ut. And Gyza. Need I go on?

You caught us with our pants down. :p
 
The terrain disadvantage was enough to discourage any sane Satar army from attacking the Moti heartlands to begin with.

I was rather counting on that, yes. Also, climate, and the utter incompetence of steppe armies at drawn out campaigns (they don't call them transhumant pastoralists for nothing!), which was the real cause of that retreat in 1242 and many, many other strategic defeats of the Mongols. You were doomed away from the steppe, especially if I were to add in guerrila warfare (and I would've done that too, naturally). So I think I very possibly (though not assuredly) could've bled you white over time, at the cost of you running Bisria into the ground and making sure it could not rebel against me any time soon; and while you kept campaigning, you would've also lost the support of your nomads (see: Akhmat Khan of the Golden Horde after Ugra), and would've allowed rebel movements elsewhere to raise their heads. Eventually you would have had to either retreat (which was fine enough by me, really) or launch a final reckless offensive that would've allowed me to fight essentially on my terms.

I don't deny that there are flaws in this plan, and I did account for the possibility that you would've sacked Gaci-city, in which case our leaders would've committed mass suicide except for Third-Gaci, who would've sneaked away and become a mountain hermit.

But anyway, I will admit that I did not at all anticipate your eastern strategy (because it is stupid :p ); still, I retain the right to be smug at the fact that I saw your feint in my northern territories coming decades in advance.

Logistically you're great for defense, but I see some centralization problems in the future for your empire.

Certainly, I've been planning this for a while now. Send in the satraps!
 
The Satar by this point in history were much less a steppe empire than a normal empire, so a lot of their old advantages have been lost, but with them a lot of their old disadvantages would have been lost. They probably could have beaten the Uggor entirely had they not stretched too far.
 
Fair enough, I suppose their army picked up some new tricks like the artillery; but I thought that at least a significant part of their strength was still in the nomadic cavalry?
 
By this point the nomads had entered more of an auxiliary role, being roughly 40% of our remaining cavalry forces. The majority were noble cavalry attached to a specific Prince. All Satar campaigns during the last terms were combined arms affairs, with the exception of the northern campaign of Xetares against Farou and Trovin, which was cavalry and siege for the most part.

The operative strategy to attack Moti by itself would have been a cooperative effort with the Algoli: Hook around from Yashidim, make diversionary raids into Krato, and sweep northeast to attack Moti's southern savannah-lands from the south. Simultaneously the same push would have been made into Bisria from the south, but moving along the southern bank of the Had, with your capital as the end point.

Granted, I considered this, but you weren't regarded as anything more than mountain barbarians by the Third Redeemer. Xetares was also more concerned with personal glory than the security of his realm. Atraxes would have done otherwise. :p
 
You beat the Satar due to an incredibly lucky stroke, after the Satar defeated the most powerful empire in the world, the Trilui. And Faron. And the Hu'ut. And Gyza. Need I go on?

You know full well that HAD I decided to kill Krato and Moti alone, I could and would have. But I acted in an in character manner, rather than seeking to protect my own borders. Of course, like the Satar, Krato and Moti's current unbridled arrogance is very IC. But like I said, don't get ahead of yourself. :p

Whatever. I don't really see what was so lucky about it.

And really, I don't care about the Satar anymore. They were a bunch of super-powered god people that are now dead. It's time for me to move on.
The Uggor are far more awesome then all those civilisations you defeated taken together. Just so you know.

This man knows what he's talking about. :D
 
The majority were noble cavalry attached to a specific Prince.

They're still riding horses. They still need to graze. If the winter doesn't kill them (there are precedents; first thing that comes to mind is that the last strong non-Mughal Timurid ruler, Abu Sa'id, fell after an inordinately harsh winter in northern Iran killed all his horses in mid-campaign and left him as easy pickings for his up to then fearful enemies), we could just set the grass on fire, and poison nearby sources of water. My point stands.

The operative strategy to attack Moti by itself would have been a cooperative effort with the Algoli: Hook around from Yashidim, make diversionary raids into Krato, and sweep northeast to attack Moti's southern savannah-lands from the south. Simultaneously the same push would have been made into Bisria from the south, but moving along the southern bank of the Had, with your capital as the end point.

Ah. I didn't quite expect you to go that far south, but other than that that's more or less what I planned for and the adjustments are not really very difficult. You would've stretched your supply lines this much more thin this way, and ofcourse between Kono and Iggy's gift in the east, and my main campaign in the west, we would've just cut you off and variously harassed your supply trains.

The fact that it was dependent on luck.

It was dependent on your inevitable errors, intentional or not, as any campaign against you has to be. When was the last time you actually won outside of a DaftNES? :p
 
They're still riding horses. They still need to graze. If the winter doesn't kill them (there are precedents; first thing that comes to mind is that the last strong non-Mughal Timurid ruler, Abu Sa'id, fell after an inordinately harsh winter in northern Iran killed all his horses in mid-campaign and left him as easy pickings for his up to then fearful enemies), we could just set the grass on fire, and poison nearby sources of water. My point stands.

It's hard to do this completely and utterly, especially as the Satar would be apt to do this in a wet season when the grass is fresh and less burnable.

Ah. I didn't quite expect you to go that far south, but other than that that's more or less what I planned for and the adjustments are not really very difficult. You would've stretched your supply lines this much more thin this way, and ofcourse between Kono and Iggy's gift in the east, and my main campaign in the west, we would've just cut you off and variously harassed your supply trains.[/QUOTE]

The Satar supply lines would never have been in doubt throughout the campaign, especially when they would be going through Algoli territory.
 
North King said:
It's hard to do this completely and utterly, especially as the Satar would be apt to do this in a wet season when the grass is fresh and less burnable.

What kind of horses are they riding? Surely if the riders are wearing armor they've graduated away from horses which can solely survive on grass. In any case, horses don't like the wet season, it does all manner of harm to their hooves and coats, they also don't like being wet for long periods, you run the risk of equine diseases, they will throw shoes in the mud which will have to be replaced and mud militates against you riding them for long stretches they will go lame or die underneath you if you push them. Some grasses also burn during the wet-season, some with low intensity and lots of smoke and some with high intensity and no smoke :p
 
It's hard to do this completely and utterly, especially as the Satar would be apt to do this in a wet season when the grass is fresh and less burnable.

Well, yes. I was counting on it taking more than a season to conquer my lands, though. :p

The Satar supply lines would never have been in doubt throughout the campaign, especially when they would be going through Algoli territory.

Depends on their exact routes, doesn't it? And they will have to enter my territory eventually, especially if, as I understand it, they are going to try and attack me from the south, thus exposing their rear to the Krato.

LINESII.

Snark. :p

Hmm? Ah yes, that was the one where you kept getting exiled further and further. :p
 
My economic base was enough to simply overwhelm you regardless.

The Sui Dynasty is a classic example of how that argument does not work, although the specific circumstances are different. I will not comment on the wisdom of dividing your bloated army while invading a difficult region.

Why are we even debating this?

Not sure. I think we're waiting for North King to update the stats or something like that? :p
 
What kind of horses are they riding? Surely if the riders are wearing armor they've graduated away from horses which can solely survive on grass.

Steppe horses can; other horses can bring in feed from elsewhere/capture it. The Satar supply routes were entirely secure during the entirety of the war. Assuming they'd somehow vanish altogether just because the terrain is a little more difficult is rather fallacious.

In any case, horses don't like the wet season, it does all manner of harm to their hooves and coats, they also don't like being wet for long periods, you run the risk of equine diseases, they will throw shoes in the mud which will have to be replaced and mud militates against you riding them for long stretches they will go lame or die underneath you if you push them.

Not in the middle of it, obviously.

Some grasses also burn during the wet-season, some with low intensity and lots of smoke and some with high intensity and no smoke :p

Irrelevant; we weren't talking about burning SOME grasses.

Point being, the Satar would have won if they had directed themselves against the Uggor only. I'm not even sure why we're debating this when the moderator gets this explicit. HINT HINT.
 
One would think something as major as that should really depend on tactics, strategy and (most of all) ironic coincidences, though.
 
I pretty much had the tactics and strategy of both sides laid out in front of me. Though yes, the ironic coincidence factor is often pretty big. :p
 
I'm new to NESing, but I read first four updates and the NESing rules, and I'd like to join, if it's not too late.

Here's the new culture: Rema

Spoiler :
Rema

Starting Location:

Society: The Remans begin with a new type of democracy, defined as Federal Democracy. In the Federal Democracy, Europa City runs under an Athenian democracy, conducting its own affairs as well as the affairs of the Reman nation. Other cities are subject to the rule of Europa City, but have a local democracy of their own, in which they conduct affairs pertinent only to their city. Europa City cannot intervene in local politics unless they interfere with national interests (like American federalism). Europa is considered to have some of the most enlightened individuals in the world; anyone considered ignorant, arrogant, and other similar vices are not permitted to inhabit the city. There are strict population controls on the city, and anyone seen as unfit to inhabit Europa City is sent to another Reman city of their choice. Children are frowned upon, and if one is seen as having too many, they may be expelled. It may seem that Europa City would be subject to severe political malfunctions (i.e., what is "unfit"?), but the inhabitants of Europa City are actually rather objective in their judgement, and follow the philosophy of "innocent until proven guilty". It is the ability to make objective decisions that is most valued in Europa City.

Lineage: The Remans trace their decent to a man by the name of Remulio and a woman named Jenophia. Remulio was abandoned at birth, along with his brother, Charlosi (the legend will be discussed later), so his ancestors are not determined. Jenophia was a member of a small local tribe called the Geminites.
Values: In Europa City, the most important qualities are political objectivity and the ability to make a decision with the information you have, with your philosophical beliefs being second to the facts (but that doesn't mean that there aren't multiple interpretations of the facts, and some facts may be superior to others). In the countryside, hard work is valued. Most of the countryside consists of farmers, artisans, peddlers, etc. They value getting ahead in life.

Religion(s): Tomanism is a monotheistic religion similar to Judaism. It is followed by all Remans (with the exception of those on the fringes of society, geographically and otherwise).

Language(s): The Reman language is similar to real-world Romantic languages, avoiding hard consonants ("k", "ch", "tch", "g", "x", etc.) and favoring vowells and soft consonants ("sh", "r", "m", "n", "p", etc.). Like romantic languages, words have a rythm, and most names are gendered ("-a", "-ia" are female; "-o", "-io" are male; "-i" is neutral). The written language is pictographically based, similar to Japanese, though it reads left-to-right, top-line to bottom-line.

Mythos: The mythic origin of the Remans is similar to the Romans. Two twin brothers were raised by their exiled mother till they were toddlers. When their mother was killed by a wild beast, the boys, Remulio and Charlosi, learned how to survive together. They were friends growing up, but when they were in their late teens, they became great rivals. One of their hunting excursions led them to a Geminite village, where they met the girl Jenophia. Both were seduced by her beauty, so when the boys returned to their camp, they argued over who would get her. This led to a fight, which Remulio won. Charlosi fled north, and the two never met again, and never forgave each other. Fortune, however, smiled upon them both, unfortunately. Remulio married Jenophia, and Europa City was founded (though it was first known as Europa), and in turn, the Reman civilization. Charlosi met a Dolite girl, and they founded the Charlosia civilization, founding the city of Dola. These two civilizations would rival each other through the ages, running under different religions and philosophies; the Remans were democratic, though also, in certain periods of time, fascist, while the Charlosians were similar to communists. They had two different religions; the Remans under Tomanism (later, Jesuphism, which is similar to Christianity), the Charlosi under Indism (polytheistic).

Economic Base: In Europa City, the citizens work small, private farms and get water from a community well. Most of their time is devoted to politics. In the countryside, artisans, farmers, and merchants make a living. Soon, merchants will take great power in the countryside and may even run local politics.

Nation Names: Rema, Remans, Geminites (derogatory)

Person Names: Remulio (founder), Charlosi (seen as evil), Masosio (religious figure in Tomanism), Jalio (general in the future, will lead a Fascist coup; think of Julius Caesar), Diamo (God), Jenophia (the mother of the Remans).

Place Names: Europa City, Europa Peninsula

Rema will begin with just Europa. Outlying towns will come about later. It will begin democratic, but in time, when a period of greatness is approaching, Jalio will become the first Emperor of the Reman Empire and Rema's first fascist. There will be conflicts between the peaceful democrats and the millitant fascists throughout Reman history (the stories will reflect this too, as future fascists and future democrats write encyclopedia entries that portray very different interpretations of Reman history). Hopefully, an NPC state will be founded in the north (Charlosia) that will rival the Remans. They may be conquered, but they will never disappear (like the Jews or Kurds).

If possible, my color preferences are shades of red, shades of blue, or black/dark grey.:goodjob:


It would be appreciated if I could play. I'm not sure whether I am supposed to send a PM or post in the thread:confused:. I sent the PM, and no response, and seeing as most posted their stats in the thread, I'll try here.

Thanks! Have a good day!
 
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