'empty' isolated continent start

They are basically errors in the script, AFAIC.

I think it is just RNG, just one of kinds of variety.

It's not like worker-stealing doesn't require a modicum of care. You must seize a good opportunity.

One can’t be stupid, but it is kind of a cheap tactic.

They get free ones and I don't. So, as a warmonger, I take them.

Yeah, but you are playing at a high difficulty because you are okay with giving the AI an advantage. But then you play to undo your choice if you can. It is a little strange.

Isolated continent starts suck, they are at best really slow, and on higher difficulty levels, there is almost no point playing them.

Is that true even for not-in-any-hurry-just-so-long-as-I-beat-the-AIs SV? I like continents, but maybe I have ended up making Deity harder than necessary?
 
The thing is, beetle, that I find turtling boring even when I have neighbours. Without them, it's just a snooze-fest for me. See my above comments about interaction.

A lot of people have complained about how pointless diplomacy is on Civ:BE. I wouldn't know, as I'm never going to play that game. But at least in BNW there is a great deal of interaction.

Clicking to refuse Open Borders a thousand times a game is boring. But I actually like it when they welcome me to their Ideology, etc. A nice touch.
 
Yeah, but you are playing at a high difficulty because you are okay with giving the AI an advantage. But then you play to undo your choice if you can. It is a little strange.

Technically, he's going beyond that -- he's trying to actually gain an advantage he wouldn't have on a lower difficulty WHILE depriving the AI of its advantage.

Obviously there are more Civs than he (presumably) can steal workers from, but...
 
There are tons of "abuses" in this game cause everything you can do and the AI can't can be considered an abuse
  • Stealing workers
  • Improving a lux and selling it cause you don't need the happiness yet (and the AI does not need it but will still buy it)
  • Baiting the AI units with workers
  • Buying a lux you need for WLTK day at high price before DoWing the civ that sold the lux
  • Using Keshiks Camel Archers and Horsemen to take cities without taking a signle hit
  • Using Artillery and Cavalry to take cities without taking a single hit
  • Using Longbowen and cavalry ...
  • Culture camping barbarian camps with Raging Barbarians on
  • Fortifying a tough unit on a hill/forest tile so the ennemy will loose plenty of time and possibly some units attacking it rather than move around and attack your lands
  • Planting a line of units between the ennemy land and yours so their units won't reach your borders and this might stop them from DoWing you
  • Gifting a single horse to get a green modifier and make the AI look the other way for their wars
  • Selling cities
  • Being smart :rolleyes:
Some might be worse then others (the sell GPT for lump sum and DoW was a really bad one, now you have to break a DoF so it's better) but really, what poeple call abusing the AI is more often than not just trying to be smarter than the AI in order to overcome the huge bonuses they get.
 
[*]Improving a lux and selling it cause you don't need the happiness yet (and the AI does not need it but will still buy it)

Technically the happiness still means faster golden ages, it's not useless.

[*]Buying a lux you need for WLTK day at high price before DoWing the civ that sold the lux

That falls into the general category of "making a deal with the AI where you get an instant benefit and then DoW." Technically you could get a DoF, get like 10000 gold for 393 gpt, and then DoW.

[*]Using Keshiks Camel Archers and Horsemen to take cities without taking a signle hit

Doesn't that technically apply to every ranged mounted unit (including Horse Archer, Chariot Archer, War Chariot) and every ranged ship?

I mean, I'm not saying the way a human can control those units compared to how the AI can control those units isn't vastly different...but I've long suspected that's more of "feature" than a bug to abuse. Can explain why if you'd like.

[*]Using Artillery and Cavalry to take cities without taking a single hit
[*]Using Longbowen and cavalry ...

Why do you say they can't do these?

[*]Fortifying a tough unit on a hill/forest tile so the ennemy will loose plenty of time and possibly some units attacking it rather than move around and attack your lands

The AI has definitely ignored fortified units of mine at times. I get your general point that they basically just want to bulldoze everything in their path and they can't deal with choke points either...but that's still a good strategy in general you're using as a player (a human player would still have to figure out how to try to avoid it).

what poeple call abusing the AI is more often than not just trying to be smarter than the AI in order to overcome the huge bonuses they get.

In this case we're literally talking about immediately trying to DEPRIVE them of that advantage. And if that cause a permanent diplomatic penalty like spying or other things it would be less of a big deal. You get an earlier worker but people trust you less and will offer worse deals.

But...that doesn't happen.
 
Technically the happiness still means faster golden ages, it's not useless.
And faster golden ages means mostly useless golden ages. I hate fast golden ages as i can't benefit from them and that means i won't get them later when i really need them.
Doesn't that technically apply to every ranged mounted unit (including Horse Archer, Chariot Archer, War Chariot) and every ranged ship?
And even regular ranged units as the AI can't move and shoot in the same turn, so using any ranged unit is a huge abuse and producing submarines (they can one shoot most ships) is outright cheating :p
In this case we're literally talking about immediately trying to DEPRIVE them of that advantage.
Just like you are trying to deprive them of their advantage in unit number by using ranged units when they are so bad with them.

If you think the way humans can control units better is a "feature", then why do you think stealing workers is not when the developers had so much time to implement a diplomatic fix (something they did for the lump sum DoW abuse) and they choose not to make one :mischief:

EDIT : Oh, BTW i used to think like you but i changed my mind. Now i'm not trying to get you to the dark side of the force. I'm just saying we are all using "abuses" of some sort if we play on higher difficulties (i could have listed more) and stealing workers is just one of those. No need to criticize anyones play cause he's used to stealing workers. Most Deity players are doing it.
 
If you think the way humans can control units better is a "feature"

You hit on the exact reason yourself:

submarines (they can one shoot most ships)

Imagine the situation: you have your naval armada with a destroyer deployed several tiles away from the main force in every direction to screen for subs (or subs of your own, doesn't matter) and a main force of battleships and carriers.

You're moving across the ocean, trying to make sure you don't lose a precious carrier full of planes or valuable promoted battleships to shell cities.

Then suddenly all your battleships and carriers are dead because the AI moved in its submarines and sank all of them in one turn. Because nuclear submarines (which have a base movement of 6, 7 with either Great Lighthouse or Exploration, 8 with both -- not even including England) literally moved six spaces and fired a further three in one turn to one shot your ships. That's 9 spaces covered (and if they have 8 movement from both bonuses and the range promotion that could be 11) in one turn, effectively.

That's basically nigh impossible to defend against even with your own destroyers/missile cruisers/submarines specifically deployed to stop such an attack. And given the swarms of units the Deity AI gets, the problem becomes even worse.

Or take another example: you have a city on a coast which expands 3 tiles into the sea. That means you can see 4 tiles out. You decide to plant a nuclear submarine 3 tiles out from your city which gives you an effective vision range of 6.

Then, one turn your city has a fleet of battleships/missile cruisers swoop in from 7+ tiles away, bombard the city to 0 HP, and capture it with a destroyer before you can react.

And you never saw it coming despite the nuclear sub trying to watch for it and the city having a good range of vision.

To summarize:

AI controlled Composite Bowman moving 1 space and firing 2 for a total range of 3: no big deal.

AI controlled Rocket Artillery moving 1 space and firing 3 for a total range of 4: no big deal.

AI controlled ship moving 6+ spaces and firing 3 for a total range of 9+ WHILE also often one-shotting its target unit: big deal.

Naval combat simply is too lethal and has too long of an effective range for a turn based game. It's broken in general, and I think the developers figured it was better to simply not have the AI make the player rage by exploiting it.

It simply wouldn't be fun for the player.

No need to criticize anyones play cause he's used to stealing workers. Most Deity players are doing it.

I'm a Deity player as well -- and what annoys me is the ENCOURAGEMENT to do it. If random player A decides he wants to worker steal like crazy, well, he can do whatever he's comfortable with. But if he insists that random player B needs to "improve his game" by worker stealing, that's something else. See the difference?
 
It's completely a matter of opinion what constitutes an abuse. KB27787 plays without bribes but gives away 1 pop cities for a fortune in return. For me, that's too gamey but I don't say it's an abuse. Anyone who still thinks worker stealing is some sort of abuse when there is calculated risk involved, the same as anything else - bribes, city gifts, musician bomb DoWs, etc - has a very narrow view of the game, IMO.

Engaging in worker stealing doesn't improve your game, it changes it. But if I steal 5 workers and you steal none, everything else being equal I will be 30-50% more effective in the game. That's how big a difference it makes. My starts will be much, much stronger.

To return to the topic, it is also my opinion that isolated starts were not the way the game was intended to be played. They just got lazy with their map scripts. Given that they put so much emphasis on trade, tourism and religion, being on your own until the renaissance seems quite pointless.
 
I don’t think it is really accurate to say that Deity players are all using “abuses” of some sort. IMHO the early-worker-steal-from-AI is quantitatively different than any other strategy I can think of. It reminds me of pop-rushing from Civ IV, except that exploit worked all game long.

Yeah, but you are playing at a high difficulty because you are okay with giving the AI an advantage. But then you play to undo your choice if you can. It is a little strange.

I should have been more clear that the “you” above is plural, and referring to Deity level play in general as it is conventionally executed. I really did not meant to call out consentient specifically. Please accept my apologies for that!

Technically the happiness still means faster golden ages, it's not useless.

The game would be much frustrating if the AI were stingy. So I think this aspect is good design.

In this case we're literally talking about immediately trying to DEPRIVE them of that advantage. And if that cause a permanent diplomatic penalty like spying or other things it would be less of a big deal. You get an earlier worker but people trust you less and will offer worse deals. But...that doesn't happen.

I agree completely. Early AI worker steals (and early settler even more so) very much seems like an exploit to me. At least with the early CS worker steals, the CS are not your competition.

And even regular ranged units as the AI can't move and shoot in the same turn, so using any ranged unit is a huge abuse and producing submarines (they can one shoot most ships) is outright cheating. Just like you are trying to deprive them of their advantage in unit number by using ranged units when they are so bad with them.

Taking advantage of the AIs poor ability to wage war feels okay to me. That is directly offset by their ability to spam units. As a practical matter, it would be almost impossible to set limits to your play so as never to take advantage. Never build subs? Never shoot at units in the water? Never move and shoot on the same turn? It would be no fun at all.

If you think the way humans can control units better is a "feature", then why do you think stealing workers is not...

Because war is all game long. Plus there is no obvious fix, short of a smarter AI. Stealing workers is okay -- after the game is underway. Stealing workers early is an exploit. Like most exploits, and unlike the human ability to control units better, the time window is very narrow and specific.

...when the developers had so much time to implement a diplomatic fix (something they did for the lump sum DoW abuse) and they choose not to make one

Agreed, early worker stealing is not as bad as the lump-sum-DoW was. That does not mean that early worker stealing should not be regarded as an exploit. I would not expect the developers to patch it out because it is popular with players, and any such patch might have unintended poor consequences.

I don't have any problem with early DoWs having no long term consequences. That seems like a nice balance adjustment. That said, yes, I think early AI worker stealing is an exploit. Not that I don’t do it sometimes... I am big fat hypocrite!

Most Deity players are doing it.

[SARCASM]Oh, well that makes perfectly okay then. It can’t possibly be an exploit if it is popular.[/SARCASM]

AI controlled ship moving 6+ spaces and firing 3 for a total range of 9+ WHILE also often one-shotting its target unit: big deal... It simply wouldn't be fun for the player.

Good point.

I'm a Deity player as well -- and what annoys me is the ENCOURAGEMENT to do it. If random player A decides he wants to worker steal like crazy, well, he can do whatever he's comfortable with. But if he insists that random player B needs to "improve his game" by worker stealing, that's something else. See the difference?

I would love to see the early-worker-steal-from-AI recognized as a crutch. Something to get a player over the initial hurdle when they first start playing at a more difficult level. Maybe even something expected for GotM or other situations where people are competing for fewest numbers of turns.
 
Question for you beetle - Is Oxfording to Radio to overtake an opponent who had a 5 or 6 tech head-start 'a crutch'?

Is going to war with the AI (something that you MUST do if you want to win a DomV) 'a crutch' ?

If not, explain to me the operational difference.

I am going to steal workers and kill units eventually, why not start on T5?

Could it just be that you are personally uncomfortable with it because you're not much of a warmonger? ;)

There is zero reason why someone actively pursuing a DomV would not steal workers on T5. If he would have to train them himself, he would be a) breaking flavour, and b) unnecessarily making it harder for his self.

If he wants to do b) willingly, then why not load the game up in IGE and bump the AI tech up to the Medieval era and see if he can still win? :p
 
I don't mind an isolated start but water maps in general are usually easier. About worker stealing... which I love and do not mind in the game nor would I mind if they changed it so you could not worker steal but that would take another dimension away from the game. Players who do not worker steal seem to have no problem worker baiting but in essence it is the same thing and another thing I do not mind in the game. When they change the game... I change my game and find/use another exploit to enjoy my time.

As usual all these things are player preferences and there really is no right or wrong which is why sometimes when you play publicly posted games it can be fun to have additional rules implemented in the game on a game by game basis. Back when the DCL revamped they wanted to play some games without ruins which is fine but it takes some fun away from the game as well even though it will balance it out more to compare games. I do not think we have had one DCL yet that has had ruins off and that is fine by me.

Some players play where they can not use spies to steal techs since they feel that is an exploit. You really can just keep going and never stop finding exploits which is why I have always stood by my statement that exploit is part of the game but "bugs" are not meant to be part of the game and they try to fix them as they get found sorta.
 
Question for you beetle - Is Oxfording to Radio to overtake an opponent who had a 5 or 6 tech head-start 'a crutch'?

Not really, at least no more than prioritizing NC. First, it is taking advantage of the human ability to spot the shortest path to Ideologies. Second, the whole thing takes a good bit of care to set up. It is much more work than early worker stealing. Third, some people make the argument that three factories is faster and better.

Is going to war with the AI (something that you MUST do if you want to win a DomV) 'a crutch' ?

I have no problem with warring in general. Bribing the AI to war on each other does not feel like an exploit to me either. The game seems designed to work that way. And it is something a player does all game long.

If not, explain to me the operational difference.

How am I doing?

I am going to steal workers and kill units eventually, why not start on T5?

Because T5 is cheap and easy. Later it really does not matter.

Could it just be that you are personally uncomfortable with it because you're not much of a warmonger?

Yes, I am terrible at warmongering. But I have played around enough with the early worker steal that I have a good feeling for how easy it is. So yes, even mediocre players can execute the early worker steal. It is a cheap tactic that should be recognized as such IMHO.

There is zero reason why someone actively pursuing a DomV would not steal workers on T5. If he would have to train them himself, he would be a) breaking flavour, and b) unnecessarily making it harder for his self.

It makes more sense when at T0 you know you are shooting for DomV, and especially when trying to open/close Honor instead of Tradition. For (a) flavor you would be DOWing on sight. If I were as strong a player as you, I would think (b) making the early game a little harder would be more fun.

why not load the game up in IGE and bump the AI tech up to the Medieval era and see if he can still win?

There are lots of incremental ways to make the game more challenging. Giving up the early AI worker steal seems like an easy way to start.
 
You flatter me! I am not a strong player, really. If I were, you could shave dozens of turns off my win times.

I would argue that worker stealing is a human ability to recognise the importance of the most valuable unit in the game, and taking one away from an opponent. It doesn't feel cheap to me at all. Oxford doesn't need much care to setup IMO.

I think F.A. has found the clear line between good strategies and bugs. For me an exploit is something that takes advantage of a bug, like the beaker overflow before the patch (which strangely, I could never get to work properly! :D )

The only bug I've ever exploited was in one game when Washington had all spaceship parts built and was being super casual about moving them to his capital. Maybe he felt he had time. He didn't and it allowed me a SV, which I didn't feel too bad about because I had been a few turns from a CV when the runaway (Alex, I think) built the Firewall (note to self: next time build it so they can't...)
 
Explore
Expand
Exploit
Exterminate

The easiest exploit is in fact war.
 
At least the 4X acronym is more accurate than the 'Three R's' :p
 
Exploit is the 3rd X, not the first! And it really refers to building up your infrastructure. I enjoy the game the most when it unfolds in exactly that order, with each being a distinct phase.

But we have gotten OT. Say you are playing continents (or whatever) and find yourself isolated. Obviously, one needs hardly any defense. What else can you do to take advantage of the situation?

I agree with re-rolling if you really had your heart set on a Dom VC. Is turtling to SV really that much harder? I guess I make more of a priority to get sailing, and skip the second scout. But is that isolated start that much of a handicap that I should give up?
 
If you think the way humans can control units better is a "feature", then why do you think stealing workers is not when the developers had so much time to implement a diplomatic fix (something they did for the lump sum DoW abuse) and they choose not to make one :mischief:

Because many people complained loudly about lump sum DOW abuse. Not so many are complaining about worker stealing

Edit: Isolated + raging barbarians on might be interesting. Not sure if it increases difficulty. At least on pangaea raging barbs lowers difficulty but isolated continents....?

Edit2: Offtopic but I miss option from older games of civilizations series where you could choose random barbarians
 
I agree with re-rolling if you really had your heart set on a Dom VC. Is turtling to SV really that much harder? I guess I make more of a priority to get sailing, and skip the second scout. But is that isolated start that much of a handicap that I should give up?
Probably not much harder, but arguably more boring
I'm often more of a turtler myself, but i can understand dealing with nothing but an occasional barbarian might not make for a very interesting game
 
Isolated starts are unquestionably harder on Deity if you're going for early-game domination, and hurts your science, undoubtedly, but having a continent to yourself, assuming there are 4 unique luxuries to be had, makes the game simpler. Can you keep up, science-wise, without neighbors or cash? Yes. You won't set record times, because you'll have to focus on happiness generation, but you also won't get messed with until long after the WC is founded, at which point you'll have a continent to yourself, and you can trade all those luxuries, since no one else will have them. At that point, you can easily turtle yourself to victory.

If you're talking about an isolated, resource-starved start.. well, just re-roll. Civ is random, which is half the fun, but it's also the cause of half the balance issues. :p
 
Top Bottom