some newbie questions

Is it worth letting the AI have open border privileges? It seems like a lot of times after they walk through they proceed to declare war on me. And I almost never explore their territory. Or is there a chance that saying "no" would actually make them more aggressive?

Second, how can I get a fair trade from the AI? When the towns demand luxury goods, and I try to trade for the goods, the AI wants literally everything I have.

How can I trade with the City States? I given enough favor to make Ally but there still seems to be no trade option. I also tried building a road to their capitol. ??

How can I make an ally from any of the AI players? Sometimes they ask if I want to join in a campaign, but none have every once agreed to join me in attacking anyone else. Even if they are already at war with that AI player, the AI won't join me. ??

Are defensive pacts worthless?

Thanks

lockandload said:

Is it worth letting the AI have open border privileges? It seems like a lot of times after they walk through they proceed to declare war on me. And I almost never explore their territory. Or is there a chance that saying "no" would actually make them more aggressive?

Click to expand...

Some AIs are notorious traitors. Others are nice guys. When you'll be a newbie no more (no offense, it was your own term ) you'll know who you can trust. Dido and Alex are traitors and often play friendly (including asking for Open Borders) before they DoW you. You won't get such a behavior from Gandhi or Theodora. Chances are they will ask for open borders so they can spread their religion. If you didn't found your own, it's a good way to invite their missionaries.
You can often get one-way open borders for a few gold per turn or 1-2 strategic resources if you want to explore.
There is no negative for refusing so if you don't need an open border, the safe answer is no.

Second, how can I get a fair trade from the AI? When the towns demand luxury goods, and I try to trade for the goods, the AI wants literally everything I have.

Click to expand...

You'll get a fair trade if the AI have excees luxuries and they don't hate you. If you want their last gems for a WLTK day, you'll have to offer at least 3 luxes (William might accept better deals due to his UA)

How can I trade with the City States? I given enough favor to make Ally but there still seems to be no trade option. I also tried building a road to their capitol. ??

Click to expand...

You can't "trade" with them like with a major civ. If you ally, they will automatically offer you all their luxes and strategics.

How can I make an ally from any of the AI players? Sometimes they ask if I want to join in a campaign, but none have every once agreed to join me in attacking anyone else. Even if they are already at war with that AI player, the AI won't join me. ??

Click to expand...

They can't join you if they are already at war. They might join you if they feel like attacking your target. Some AIs are more likely to join in a war. Ask Shaka to join in a war someone and he will gladly agree (unless he plans to attack you because you are the easy prey). Ask Theodora and she will refuse unless the target was an absolute a..hole all game long.

Are defensive pacts worthless?

Click to expand...

yes

Been a while since I played the vanilla game, but here goes:

1. Generally, not worth giving open borders. It allows them to scout your territory. It can be an early source of gold, but gold is plentiful in the game.

2. If you try to trade for an AI's last copy of luxury, they will frequently demand at least 3 luxuries worth of value from you. Rarely worth doing.

3. You can't trade with City States. If you are their ally, they will gift you their resources (strategics and luxuries). You become ally by showering them with gold or satisfying quests (like building a road).

4. If you mean ally in a war, you can ask them to go to war (from the diplomacy screen), but that rarely works. Or you can try to bribe them (from the trade screen) to DOW another civ. Can be expensive, and the AI isn't stupid -- they measure the odds of victory, including relative military strength. Also, if they like the other civ more than you, you will go nowhere.

5. DPs are worthless.

Just to add-on, a “Declaration of Friendship” is the closest thing to “ally” but it is not really close at all.

I guess I have had more luck than Browd with getting AIs to go to war with me. If an AI is already at with another AI, how could they join you? What more would they do? Sometimes, if you are ready to join a war, you can an AI already at war to give you something in trade. That has not been very lucrative in my experience though. I have never gotten the AI to give me anything to join a war they want to initiate.

I have played around with Defensive Pacts a good bit, so I wouldn’t characterize them as worthless, but they are very weak. They don’t prevent aggression, make it easy for the player to get sucked into war, and most of time your AI pact partners make peace after like 5 turns. OTOH, 1 out of 20 times they generate mischief that lasts most of the game. I love those!

Thanks all for the responses.

I tried to get an AI player (China) to join against Rome, who they were already fighting, as a test. I figured if not then, when? Still no. I guess they thought I was still unworthy. LOL

RE: the short fights. Yeah. It seems like the AIs fight just to be fighting. They often stop before winning any cities. Whatever, I don't hesitate to pile on.

beetle said:

Just to add-on, a “Declaration of Friendship” is the closest thing to “ally” but it is not really close at all.

I guess I have had more luck than Browd with getting AIs to go to war with me. If an AI is already at with another AI, how could they join you? What more would they do? Sometimes, if you are ready to join a war, you can an AI already at war to give you something in trade. That has not been very lucrative in my experience though. I have never gotten the AI to give me anything to join a war they want to initiate.

I have played around with Defensive Pacts a good bit, so I wouldn’t characterize them as worthless, but they are very weak. They don’t prevent aggression, make it easy for the player to get sucked into war, and most of time your AI pact partners make peace after like 5 turns. OTOH, 1 out of 20 times they generate mischief that lasts most of the game. I love those!

Click to expand...

Didn't notice the [vanilla] tag. if this means you have no expansion packs rather than no mods, my example civs might be totally off.

lockandload said:

RE: the short fights. Yeah. It seems like the AIs fight just to be fighting. They often stop before winning any cities. Whatever, I don't hesitate to pile on.

Click to expand...

Slightly OT but you might find yourself doing the same at some point. Sometimes (not very often as i'm not a big warmonger) i will DoW an AI with no plan to take any city but i just want to weaken them a bit. Can be useful on higher difficulties : stealing workers (some players consider this an abuse, i no longer see it this way) and pillaging for cash will both help you and slow them down. Of course you have to be careful because other AIs might attack you when they see you as weak. On the bright side, such a "war" has only a minimal effect on your warmonger score.

lockandload said:

Are defensive pacts worthless?

Click to expand...

No, but they need to be used wisely. If you're next to civ A and then civ B is on the other side of B, getting a defensive pact with B can be useful if you expect A to attack you. On the flip side, if you're between civs A and B then getting a pact with B to help against A is worthless since B probably won't send their army all the way through your lands to help.

I remember a really funny situation in Deity game where I got a pact with Halle and Germany came to invade me...but Germany came through Halle's lands to do it since he had open borders (and I knew he'd go through Halle's lands). Germany DOWs...and then in the next two or three turns his army was crushed between my units and Halle's.

So, not worthless, but you need to be smart about using them. And unless you're really sure about some allies, don't have more than 1 active (because if you have a DoF and pact with A and B then then B declares war on A...you'll declare war on B and get the "declared war on a friend" diplomatic penalty to all civs).

Good advice, thanks.

LordBalkoth said:

No, but they need to be used wisely. If you're next to civ A and then civ B is on the other side of B, getting a defensive pact with B can be useful if you expect A to attack you. On the flip side, if you're between civs A and B then getting a pact with B to help against A is worthless since B probably won't send their army all the way through your lands to help.

I remember a really funny situation in Deity game where I got a pact with Halle and Germany came to invade me...but Germany came through Halle's lands to do it since he had open borders (and I knew he'd go through Halle's lands). Germany DOWs...and then in the next two or three turns his army was crushed between my units and Halle's.

So, not worthless, but you need to be smart about using them. And unless you're really sure about some allies, don't have more than 1 active (because if you have a DoF and pact with A and B then then B declares war on A...you'll declare war on B and get the "declared war on a friend" diplomatic penalty to all civs).

Click to expand...

What doesn't work in all this is the assumption that the only relevant players are A, B and you. If you have a DP with A, and A is attacked by C, with whom you have a DOF, the DP causes you to auto-DOW C (yes, you are the aggressor towards C), making you a backstabber in the eyes of everyone, including your DP partner. Is that messed up? Yeah, more than a little.

Browd said:

What doesn't work in all this is the assumption that the only relevant players are A, B and you.

Click to expand...

If you're referring to my post, I never assumed that.

I said "And unless you're really sure about some allies, don't have more than 1 active" -- if I was was only considering A and B, I would have said "don't have a defensive pact active with both." My entire point was that things can get tangled with that wonderful feature of "You declared war on a friend though a defensive pact" so you need to be very careful.

But if you're next to Shaka, managed to befriend him, he's a runaway, and the rest of the world hates you both? Getting a pact with him while you go for science or diplomatic victory can certainly be useful.

So, like I originally said..."they need to be used wisely."

I don't see how a DP with a war monger is of much help, since the war monger is so easily bribed anyway.

What I like is a DP with a strong AI who not much otherwise interested in fighting. Then if I am DOWed, I get 5 turns of help. Even if it is just 5 turns, and the DP partner(s) only attack the easiest of targets, that still usually opens up some trade opportunities.

Very occasionally, things work out much better than that. Like when your DP is between you and the AI likely to DOW...