Expedition Sites

Barathor

Emperor
Joined
May 7, 2011
Messages
1,202
What is everybody's thoughts on the expedition sites?

For Review:

Crashed Satellite:
67% = +80 production in the capital
33% = complete 25% the cost of a random tech (max cost: 1500; must be branch tech; must no be able to research it at that time; must not have any research progress)

Derelict Settlement:
50% = +"culture per turn" x 4 (min: 30; max: 500)
50% = +1 population in capital city

Alien Skeleton:
67% = alien unit spawns under your control (30% Drone; 30% Manticore; 40% Raptor)
33% = +14 to 20 points in a random affinity

Progenitor Ruin:
50% = +1 level in an affinity of your choice
50% = complete 20% the cost of a random tech (min cost: 2000; max cost: 7000; must be branch tech; must no be able to research it at that time; must not have any research progress)

We receive a lot of bonus expedition builds for our explorers, but do you believe there are enough expeditions sites on maps to make the bonus worthwhile? How many explorers do you usually build at the beginning of the game?

What do you think of the rewards? Any that are too strong or too weak?

- - - - - - - -

In the planet script I'm working on, I'll be adding an advanced option to set the amount of expedition sites (Artifacts) placed on maps (Sparse, Standard, Abundant, Random). Looking at maps, I'm thinking the current amount I would regard as Sparse -- or, do you believe it should be Standard?

Also, artifacts are placed randomly, but I'm thinking of making the placements a bit more sophisticated and then tweaking any rewards to better suit their new placement style.

Crashed Satellites: still fairly random, but slightly more weight on placements around and near starting areas.

Derelict Settlements: These will be placed around and near starting areas, you won't find these as you venture further into the wilds. These give good early bonuses to get your empire up and going. (These past colonists probably wouldn't settle in an alien infested wild area.)

Alien Skeletons: These will be mostly found out in the wilds, though they also slightly bleed a little outside of the wild areas into "civilized" zones.

Progenitor Ruins: These will only be found in the deepest wild areas, where a strong, native alien presence will deter early expeditions to these powerful sites. (Even the Civilopedia says these are found deep in the wilds.)

- - - - - - - -

I think it would create a mini expedition game within the main game, where you explore the planet and hack your way towards more powerful rewards. I'm influenced by other 4X games where there are different threat levels present on maps that you can work towards and reap greater rewards (like in Age of Wonders 3 or in the Heroes of Might and Magic series with higher level monster guards). I think it would make the map a lot more interesting and the map is everything -- a poor map creates poor gameplay (in my opinion).

Another additional mod I was thinking of was a second set of more powerful, always aggressive aliens (purple ones) that only spawn in the deep wild areas (I suppose on large xenomass sites) and "guard" the high quantity strategic resources and valuable artifacts.

- - - - - - - -

Anyway, again, what do you think of these things currently in the game? For me, one example is that I think the alien reward from the alien skeleton is a tad weak (especially when I mod its placement). Perhaps it should reward 2 of them instead? Or, perhaps it grants a totally different bonus (When I'm Purity, for example, I don't want filthy aliens fighting alongside me, haha).
 
The problem with your first idea: On Apollo the AI would just take all the good ruins before you can even get their - the combat bonus (especially paired with purity1) is strong enough that the AI can literally create their 2 turn expeditions directly next to an alien nest without being in danger of dying.

So I think you'd need need to combine both ideas into one mod - but then you'd probably run into the problem that the AI would still try to defeat these aliens (just like they now sacrifice 2-3 units into siege worms). So you'd need to make some changes to that, too. :>

But to get to your actual question - my evaluations:

Crashed Satellite:
- Production - very useful, especially early on. Becomes less interesting later on (turn 50+)
- Random Tech is too volatile imho. It can get you SO far ahead if you're lucky and get a reduction for one of your late-game techs, but most of the time it's just a bummer.
-> Overall a good bonus if they can be taken without too much of a problem

Derelict Settlement:
- Culture - actually weaker now that I mostly play with Pioneers instead of Artists in 1.2. The amount of culture is... lacking to say the least.
- 1 Population - sounds boring as hell, but I think the bonus is rather useful early on. (And possibly later, though the total influence is less powerful then)
-> Not es strong as the Crashed Satellite, but I'd certainly get after these bonuses as long as I don't have to clear aliens for them.

Alien Skeleton:
- Alien Unit - really good if you get a drone - really bad if you get a Manticore, okay-ish if you get a Raptor (and a really useless bonus if you get it later in the game)
- Random Affinity - well, it's a 1:3 change to get a good boost for the right one - or it may unlock a t2-building for one of your off-affinities. Random, but useful.
-> As long as there are Progenitor Ruins nearby I'd absolutely clear out some aliens for the change for the right affinity. I'd probably not waste time if a single one of these was the only things I'd get.

Pregenitor Ruin:
- +1 Affinity - Very, very useful. Especially if you "protect" them by aliens so they stay hidden until the mid-game. The later you get that bonus, the more powerful it is.
- Random Tech - See crashed satellite.
- I-Win-Ruin-Bonus (for Beacon Victory) is insane.
-> Really strong and probably easily worth spending time killing aliens.
 
Expeditions are fine as they are now

You can have a crazy start with with the new Pioneer Colonists, Electromagnetic Sensor and Cytotome (and go for Field Research as your 1st virtue before switching to Industry)
 
The problem with your first idea: On Apollo the AI would just take all the good ruins before you can even get their - the combat bonus (especially paired with purity1) is strong enough that the AI can literally create their 2 turn expeditions directly next to an alien nest without being in danger of dying.

So I think you'd need need to combine both ideas into one mod - but then you'd probably run into the problem that the AI would still try to defeat these aliens (just like they now sacrifice 2-3 units into siege worms). So you'd need to make some changes to that, too. :>

But to get to your actual question - my evaluations:

Crashed Satellite:
- Production - very useful, especially early on. Becomes less interesting later on (turn 50+)
- Random Tech is too volatile imho. It can get you SO far ahead if you're lucky and get a reduction for one of your late-game techs, but most of the time it's just a bummer.
-> Overall a good bonus if they can be taken without too much of a problem

Derelict Settlement:
- Culture - actually weaker now that I mostly play with Pioneers instead of Artists in 1.2. The amount of culture is... lacking to say the least.
- 1 Population - sounds boring as hell, but I think the bonus is rather useful early on. (And possibly later, though the total influence is less powerful then)
-> Not es strong as the Crashed Satellite, but I'd certainly get after these bonuses as long as I don't have to clear aliens for them.

Alien Skeleton:
- Alien Unit - really good if you get a drone - really bad if you get a Manticore, okay-ish if you get a Raptor (and a really useless bonus if you get it later in the game)
- Random Affinity - well, it's a 1:3 change to get a good boost for the right one - or it may unlock a t2-building for one of your off-affinities. Random, but useful.
-> As long as there are Progenitor Ruins nearby I'd absolutely clear out some aliens for the change for the right affinity. I'd probably not waste time if a single one of these was the only things I'd get.

Pregenitor Ruin:
- +1 Affinity - Very, very useful. Especially if you "protect" them by aliens so they stay hidden until the mid-game. The later you get that bonus, the more powerful it is.
- Random Tech - See crashed satellite.
- I-Win-Ruin-Bonus (for Beacon Victory) is insane.
-> Really strong and probably easily worth spending time killing aliens.

Awesome, thanks for your feedback! This is what I was looking for.

I'm actually hoping the Apollo AI "seems" competitive and grabs some of the skeletons and progenitor ruins as they stumble along through aliens. Currently, while exploring, I always snipe expedition sites along the Apollo AI's cities and get yelled at by them.

Crashed Satellites:
- Yeah, the production boost would be nicer if it scaled just a little bit. I would still like it to be most potent early on, but would also like it to be just a little bit better later on during the mid game. Perhaps, one idea is to make the bonus 70 + "capital's production per turn".
- I didn't think the research boost was "too" broken, but it is quite volatile. An idea here would be to allow techs you can currently research as candidates in the random selection pool, and to add a minimum cost of perhaps 200 and a maximum of 1000. This way, you won't get research towards any of the cheesy 95 cost branch techs in the first ring, and it'll stick to the techs in the second ring only -- minus the high cost Mechatronics tech.

Derelict Settlements:
- A good point -- I didn't even notice that about the culture boost since often go Artists. It should probably receive a small flat amount added to the cpt x 4.
- Agreed, + 1 pop is boring but effective!

Alien Skeleton:
- Yeah, the alien is basically useless later on. A few more aliens would still be useless. Something else would need to be added here.
- Yeah, pretty random but useful. Early on or when applied to your dominant affinity, it can often level you up, but won't do as much if it's randomly applied to your non-dominant affinities when you start getting increased level costs. Still, points are points, I guess.

Progenitor Ruins:
- The affinity level up is awesome.
- The research bonus is random but it's quite nice -- you know it's going to be one of the outer ring techs. Perhaps, like above, the restriction can be removed and outer ring techs that you can currently select and research can be included too.

Actually, if the research boosts are just too random, another approach could be for the code to select candidates that you're able to research "first" and randomly selects one of those. If none are available, then it selects candidates that you can't reach yet, like normal.

- Yeah, forgot to mention the Contact victory fragment. I hate it and wish for it to be removed.
 
Expeditions are fine as they are now

You can have a crazy start with with the new Pioneer Colonists, Electromagnetic Sensor and Cytotome (and go for Field Research as your 1st virtue before switching to Industry)

I'm not sure if they're fine, but starts can certainly get crazy:

Spoiler :
 
I'm not sure if they're fine, but starts can certainly get crazy:

Spoiler :

I would have agreed with you before being able to spam a half dozen explorers, see all the excavation sites and pick up Field Research for 20 culture

Go for the satellites first and get that 80 production to get a worker.

A gamble?
Sure
But a gamble that can beat out normal "good" openings
 
But is that really good design? I'd certainly prefer a scenario where the good bonuses require some work instead of the gamble that it is now.
 
Derelict Settlements: These will be placed around and near starting areas, you won't find these as you venture further into the wilds. These give good early bonuses to get your empire up and going. (These past colonists probably wouldn't settle in an alien infested wild area.)

My view is these early settlements became derelict because a group of unaware colonists happened to settle too close to native life-infested areas (wild lands).
 
But is that really good design? I'd certainly prefer a scenario where the good bonuses require some work instead of the gamble that it is now.

I think these Strongest openings are on par now. Which one comes out ahead depends on map generation chance.

AU + Artists + Tectonic Scanner + Laboratory -> Colony Initiative -> Industry
AU + Pioneers + Tectonic Scanner + Machinery -> Industry
AU + Pioneers + Electromagnetic Sensor + Cytotome -> Field Research -> Industry

The other factions need small boosts to match AU, and if it is done in consideration of being synergistic with seeding options, the game's opening moves could be great fun in comparison to Civ5.
 
Huh? I meant would you not prefer a scenario where the good Ruins need some work to be "unlocked" (by killing the aliens that guard them) instead of being distributed somewhat random as they are now?
 
Huh? I meant would you not prefer a scenario where the good Ruins need some work to be "unlocked" (by killing the aliens that guard them) instead of being distributed somewhat random as they are now?

No

Murdering aliens has a specific track with bonuses that should not overlap.
 
I see. Well, good thing it's (going to be) a mod. :)
 
I see. Well, good thing it's (going to be) a mod. :)

More clarification

Before the winter patch and new seeding options: I would have thought it would be a great way to empower something like Brasilia + Weapon Arsenal. Clear out aliens easier for the better reward

Now it seems we are headed towards specific empowerments that do not overlap
Brasilia + Mercenaries + Lifeform Sensor + Weapons Arsenal -> Scavenging
Brasilia + Pioneers + Electromagnetic Sensor + Cytotome -> Field Research

Though a balance pass needs to be done on factions / seeding options, it doesn't seem that expeditions are supposed to overlap with murdering aliens.
 
My view is these early settlements became derelict because a group of unaware colonists happened to settle too close to native life-infested areas (wild lands).

Yeah, that's partly how I like to view it too.

More specifically, without getting into actual tile distance, I was thinking of four zones. The start area, near the start area, near wild areas, and wild areas. Also, "near the start area" is nothing like it is now or that picture I posted above. Right now, artifacts only require a distance of 4 from original start points. I hope what would change in the default game is that it's at least doubled (I'll be modding it anyway).

I was picturing derelict settlements in that 2nd layer, a little bit further from where your own expansion cities might go and bleeding it into the 3rd layer a bit.
 
Are those really the right probability figures? To me it's more like:

Crashed Satellite:
75% = +80 production in the capital
25% = complete 25% the cost of a random tech (max cost: 1500; must be branch tech; must no be able to research it at that time; must not have any research progress)

Derelict Settlement:
50% - but increases over time? = +"culture per turn" x 4 (min: 30; max: 500)
50% - but decreases over time? = +1 population in capital city

Alien Skeleton:
60% = alien unit spawns under your control (30% Drone; 30% Manticore; 40% Raptor)
40% = +14 to 20 points in a random affinity

Progenitor Ruin:
75% = +1 level in an affinity of your choice
25% = complete 20% the cost of a random tech (min cost: 2000; max cost: 7000; must be branch tech; must no be able to research it at that time; must not have any research progress)
+
20%-ish (separate from the above percentages) = contact signal piece

But as for their benefits, yeah, what Ryika said.

And dam, that electro-magnetic sensor thingie that detects ruins looks epic indeed. :eek:
 
And dam, that electro-magnetic sensor thingie that detects ruins looks epic indeed. :eek:

I took it once and promptly realized you don't need it. The maps spawn resource pods and artifacts in arcs of 3 or 4. Find one, then follow the curve and you find them all. I'm not sure if that's coded in as such, or if it's an unintended consequence, but that's what happens. It's a bit metagamey, but when the placement is that regular, it's hard not to take advantage of it.
 
I took it once and promptly realized you don't need it. The maps spawn resource pods and artifacts in arcs of 3 or 4. Find one, then follow the curve and you find them all. I'm not sure if that's coded in as such, or if it's an unintended consequence, but that's what happens. It's a bit metagamey, but when the placement is that regular, it's hard not to take advantage of it.
I used the IGEditor AddOn to reveal the whole map, disabled all symbols except for the Artifacts and restarted a few times -> Can't confirm what you said. They're split up rather nicely and partly tend to clumb in the wildernesses (areas with alien nests), as they're supposed to.
 
I think what's happening is that it fills in artifacts last (see GenerateMap, also look at the code in CanPlaceArtifactAt), but it avoids putting artifacts too close to civilizations. It looks like it does this check by looking at the radius from a plot. When you have civs spawn, that creates circular edges where artifacts can be spawned (and circular areas where they can't be). The add artifacts function itself calls CanPlaceArtifactAt and tries to put an artifact everywhere it can, within the given amount of artifacts expected in the area. If there are multiple artifacts valid at a plot, it rolls for the type of one. If you take a well defined border and fill it in randomly (or fill around it), you'll start to see the shape itself. So this seems 50/50 coded in/artifact of placement method.

Spoiler :
Code:
    -- Check for being too close to a civ start.
	local radius = 4;
	for dx = -radius, radius do
		for dy = -radius, radius do
			local otherPlot = Map.PlotXYWithRangeCheck(plot:GetX(), plot:GetY(), dx, dy, radius);
			if(otherPlot) then
				if otherPlot:IsStartingPlot() then -- Loop through all ever-alive major civs, check if their start plot matches "otherPlot"
					for player_num = 0, GameDefines.MAX_CIV_PLAYERS - 1 do
						local player = Players[player_num];
						if player:IsEverAlive() then
							-- Need to compare otherPlot with this civ's start plot and return false if a match.
							local playerStartPlot = player:GetStartingPlot();
							if (otherPlot:GetX() == playerStartPlot:GetX() and otherPlot:GetY() == playerStartPlot:GetY()) then
								return false;
							end
						end
					end
				end
			end
		end
	end

Programmer in my other life that doesn't involve playing Civ. Offtopic, but the code is really nice and clean.
 
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