Poland Discussions

Changing city lists is one of the simplest thing to do in the .xml file, can be done in notepad. Of course, it would be perfect if the guys at Firaxis were actually doing it right.

I'm also against using Vilnius in Polish city list. Despite the fact that Lithuanian nobility became gradually polonised in the Commonwealth, and Vilnius itself was influenced by Polish culture, it is a mistake to include a historical - and current - capital of one of the sovereign states of the Commonwealth in an exclusively Polish city list.
 
Bascially I agree that Vilnius in Polish city list is a little controversial, but I think that Louis XXIV has a point:
It was a city in either the Kingdom of Poland-Lithuania or the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, no? Firaxis is a fan of these dual-culture kingdoms. Denmark includes the period of Denmark-Norway. Sweden includes the time they ruled Finland. It would make a lot of sense for Poland to include Lithuanian cities to continue this trend.
We have Helsinki (and other Finnish cities) in Sweden and we have Oslo in Denmark. It's not because Firaxis' lack of knowledge or whatever - they simply like dual-culture civs :)

I don't know how many Lithuanians are on that forum, but it's quite funny to see that there are more voices against Vilnius from Poles than Lithuanians ;)
 
Your Vilnius discussion made me wonder which cities will be included in the Polish civ. I think that researchers usually just look at:

- the current sizes of cities,
- their status as regional capitals,
- historical significance,
- their 'brand recognition'.

Most of the city lists contain ~35 names. So my guesses are:

7 no brainers, 100% chance:
Spoiler :
Warsaw (confirmed)
Krakow (confirmed)
Lodz (confirmed)
Wroclaw (confirmed)
Vilnius (confirmed)
Gdansk (population, Walesa/Solidarity, culture, trade)
Poznan (size, historical significance, trade)

6 obvious choices, 99% chance of being included:
Spoiler :
Lublin (population, historical significance)
Bydgoszcz (population)
Szczecin (population, trade)
Katowice (population, industry)
Torun (Copernicus, teutonic order)
Czestochowa (population, religion)

3 very possible choices, 80% chance
Spoiler :
Bialystok (population)
Gdynia (population, trade)
Gniezno (historical significance)

7 cities that have a good chance, 60%
Spoiler :
Lviv (more merit to it than Vilnius, but doesn't fit into the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth narrative)
Kaunas (another one from Lithuania, its second biggest city)
Kielce (largest city in the region)
Olsztyn (largest city in the region)
Opole (largest city in the region)
Rzeszow (largest city in the region)
Malbork (historical significance)

8 cities that have A chance, 40%:
Spoiler :
Gorzow Wielkopolski (largest city in the region)
Zielona Gora (regional capital)
Sosnowiec (population, industry)
Radom (population)
Gliwice (population, industry)
Zabrze (population, industry)
Bytom (population, industry)
Kazimierz Dolny (historical town, a tourist attraction, a city named for Casimir III)

And 8 guesses (20% chance)
Spoiler :
Zakopane (nature, culture)
Sopot (nature, culture)
Przemysl (religion)
Legnica (historical significance)
Kalisz (historical significance)
Plock (historical significance)
Swinoujscie (location, trade)
Bielsko-Biala (population)

Wild guesses (0% chance) :crazyeye:
Spoiler :
Auschwitz (well, it's a city and a very well known one too, although I'd guess devs would be crazy to include it)
Wieliczka (well-known tourist attraction, but too small, I guess)

That's a total of 41.

I just hope they'll put at least some thought into that, hopefully more than I did :p
 
Well, I'm Polish, so the last thing you can expect of me is being anti-Polish.

Vilnius actually never was a part of Poland, per se (at least not during the period you guys are referring to) - Poland-Lithuania was a dual state, with Krakow (and later Warsaw) as the capital of Poland and Vilnius as the capital of Lithuania (it's like, say, Edinburgh was a capital of Scotland, rather than an English city, despite Scotland being ruled by a monarch who resided in London).

I also know that a lot of Lithuanians view this period quite differently from Poles (i.e. Poles think this was a cooperation, whereas many Lithuanians think it was more of an occupation).

On top of that, Casimir never ruled Lithuania - he was the last King of the Piast dynasty that was purely limited to Poland.

If anything, a city like Lviv (which I believe is currently on the Russian list) would make much more sense as a Polish city, as it was ethnically mainly Polish for most of its history, whereas Vilnius has always been dominated by Lithuanians.

However, a civilization generally includes all of their history, so whether it was a Polish city during the reign of Casimir is irrelevant.

Now I think it's a valid complaint that Lithuania wasn't an equal partner (although I don't think Finland was during Sweden's rule), but you're not supposed to cherrypick a single piece of history when you look at a civ, you're supposed to look at its entire history. Believe it or not, Solidarity wasn't around when Casimir was ruling either :p
 
Spoiler :
Auschwitz (well, it's a city and a very well known one too, although I'd guess devs would be crazy to include it)

If they are going to put this city in our list, then it should be polish version (Oświęcim), we all should know what terrible things Nazis have done, and it shouldn't be in any way linked to Poles, and I'm afraid that using German version might mislead people with insufficient knowledge of history (Obama talking about "polish death camps" or foreign journalists showing off their ignorance are the best eqamples).
 
Moderator Action: Nobody will further pursue that part of the discussion (or anything remotely related to it).
Haha, yes sir! :)

Back on Topic;

Seeing as how poland will be able to build some serious cav units, how dependant will it be on Horses close to its starting position? Will Horses be its starting bias?

Playing Poland and find out you dont have horses will be somewhat an anti-climax and automatic re-roll im guessing...
 
Playing Poland and find out you dont have horses will be somewhat an anti-climax and automatic re-roll im guessing...

It would be similar to a no-Iron Rome game. You would miss out on your uniques, but still have the UA to balance it out. And Polish UA encourages having great science to get to new eras quickly and fill out those policy trees, which still is pretty powerful. With current trees you could go Liberty, pick Republic and a free Settler quickly, then go wide and you'd eventually find horses.

We don't know how the policy trees will be changed in BNW, but going wide and good science come along.
 
Actually I think that if Firaxis said A, it should say B in addition to Vilnius. If it's on Polish city list, so should be Kaunas and other Lithuanian cities, and the civ itself should pose as a Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. I'd find it strange if the dual name would be an official one though.

If Casimir is the Polish leader, imho Lviv should be in. For a very long time this city was an important cultural and scientifical center of Poland (4 greatest Polish universities during the interbellum were in Warsaw, Cracow, Lviv and Vilnius)
 
Kazimierz Dolny (historical town, a tourist attraction, a city named for Casimir III)

Well, you should know that Kazimierz Dolny has nothing to do with Casimir III. The city's name appeared in XIII century and is closely related to Kazimierz Sprawiedliwy, the duke in XII-century Poland.
 
Pardon me if this has been discussed. But a policy per era seems a bit of overkill no? I get that culture victory is being revamped. Two new trees, plus perhaps a cheaper cost, but some policies provide quite the buff. You basically get a free tree if you make it to the end of the game with Poland. Think that needs an overhaul.
 
Pardon me if this has been discussed. But a policy per era seems a bit of overkill no? I get that culture victory is being revamped. Two new trees, plus perhaps a cheaper cost, but some policies provide quite the buff. You basically get a free tree if you make it to the end of the game with Poland. Think that needs an overhaul.

Dont think it will be that bad considering that Policy trees are restrained by the rate of technology. That means 2 eras worth of free policies that can only be placed from tradition to patronage by Medieval age. Arguably with only the Tradition Tree that is very strong in the Medieval age and before, Poland might be favored for a heavy tradition start coupled with abit of investment in Liberty.

Let's not forget that in GnK, policies were nerfed/buffed and their positions switched. It is not entirely impossible that the same thing might happen. For all we know, Tradition might be nerfed and Honor buffed. We also have no idea which era the exploration and aesthetics trees would end up in. Nor do we know if the free social policies would raise current policy costs.

In short, too many unknown variables for people to reasonably decide whether something is OP or not.
 
Well, you should know that Kazimierz Dolny has nothing to do with Casimir III. The city's name appeared in XIII century and is closely related to Kazimierz Sprawiedliwy, the duke in XII-century Poland.

You're right, my bad. Still, it's a viable option, albeit unlikely. I'd say it's on par with adding San Gimignano to the Italy civ.
 
Auschwitz (well, it's a city and a very well known one too, although I'd guess devs would be crazy to include it)

Auschwitz is not its Polish name, but its German name. Polish name is Oświęcim.

Oświęcim had totally no historical or any other significance prior to WW2 and 1940s.

If anything you could put Auschwitz into the German city list, because Nazi Germany founded the death camp. But I don't think that the purpose of Civ games is to bash countries for their wrongdoings in relatively recent history. And this town had no importance other than war crimes commited there in WW2.
Moderator Action: I told everyone to drop that topic.

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When it comes to Polish faction leaders - anyone knows how many leaders per faction are going to be included?

If you tell me the number of leaders, then I can write my predictions regarding who is going to be among them.

If anything, a city like Lviv (which I believe is currently on the Russian list) would make much more sense as a Polish city, as it was ethnically mainly Polish for most of its history, whereas Vilnius has always been dominated by Lithuanians.

Vilnius was not always dominated by ethnic Lithuanians. It is hard to trace when exactly the number of ethnic Poles (many of whom were Polonized descendants of Lithuanians) exceeded the number of ethnic Lithuanians in the city. But in the 19th and early 20th century Vilnius had only a very small ethnic Lithuanian-speakers minority, while majority of its population were Polish-language speakers and Jews (some of whom also spoke Polish as their primary language).

That said, I agree that Vilnius should not be included among Polish cities, because if they include it among Polish cities, Lithuanians are going to hate us even more than they already do (and the main reason of Polish-Lithuanian antagonisms in history is precisely Vilnius and it all started in the 1920s).

Also I think that Litva (aka Lithuania) was important enough in some period of European history (1200 - 1500) that it could be a separate Civ in this game.

Regarding Lwów (Lviv):

Lviv had perhaps a more multi-ethnic and multi-cultural character than Vilnius (i.e. Vilnius was more ethnically Polish than Lviv - at least in the 19th century). But Lviv was within political borders of the Kingdom of Poland since the mid-14th century and I agree that it should be included as a Polish city.

Also when we include Lviv as a Polish city, we are not going to be accused for "stealing" someone's capital, because Lviv was never a capital city of any historical state (before Red Ruthenia was annexed by the Kingdom of Poland in the 14th century, Halych and Volodymyr were capital cities of local Ruthenian duchies, rather than Lviv). Lviv was also a Polish city all the way since the 14th century until the 20th century - so much longer than Vilnius.

Lviv (which I believe is currently on the Russian list)

Lviv being on the Russian list is total absurd. Putting Lviv on the Russian list is more or less as absurd as putting Kaliningrad (Konigsberg) on the Russian list would be. Lviv was never within the political borders or "cultural borders" of Russia, which - as we know - traces back its origins to the Duchy of Moscow. Russia is not the same as Early Medieval Rus. Russia originates from the High Medieval Duchy of Moscow, which later conquered other duchies. If any modern state has the right to trace back its origins to Early Medieval Rus (which had its capital city in Kiev), it is Ukraine, not Russia.

Historically speaking Lviv was most important for Poland, though. This city played a very important role in Polish history until WW2.

Regarding Danzig (Gdańsk):

It was also historically a very important city for Poland, and Poland was historically even more important for Danzig and its urban development.

Ethnic composition of the population of Danzig (which all the way since 1350 until 1945 was mostly German-speaking) has no importance here. Especially that Poland was always a multi-ethnic state all the way since 1366 (final incorporation of Red Ruthenia) until 1939. Between 1366 and 1939 ethnic Poles were never more than 70% of population of Poland (and when you include entire Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, then ethnic Poles were never more than 60%).

My definition of "ethnic Poles" in this case, is "people who speak Polish as their mother tongue / primary language".

Economic and political ties (including political loyalty throughout most of history) of Danzig with Poland were historically much more important.

Gdańsk was responsible for over 80% of Polish maritime trade in period 1466 - 1795. For example in period 1600 - 1650 Gdańsk was responsible for handling 82% of Poland's maritime trade (while Elbląg for 7,4%, Riga for 6,2%, Konigsberg for 2,5%, Stettin for 1,6% and other ports for 0,3%).

The wealth of this city resulted from the fact that it participated in maritime export and maritime import of the entire Vistula river basin.

I described the importance of Gdańsk for Poland and the importance of Polish trade and protection / privileges for Gdańsk for example here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12333199&highlight=Danzig#post12333199
 
When it comes to Polish faction leaders - anyone knows how many leaders per faction are going to be included?

If you tell me the number of leaders, then I can write my predictions regarding who is going to be among them.

BNW follows Civ V protocol of having only 1 leader for each civ. Poland's leader is Casimir III. There are no others.
 
Ah, ok. Only one leader = no dilemma who should be the leader. :p

BTW - including "Auschwitz / Oświęcim" in the Polish city list when Casimir III is the Polish faction leader, would be a ridiculous and tasteless joke.

Casimir III was known as a very pro-Jewish king (probably one of reasons was because one of his numerous lovers was a Jewish woman Esterka):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esterka

Esterka was so good in bed that Casimir founded a town primarily for Jewish settlers called Kazimierz (Casimir) right next to Kraków (Cracow): :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazimierz

"Casimir the Great Arriving to the House of his Mistress Esterka", painted by Władysław Łuszczkiewicz:

 
Well I'm one Lithuanian on this forum :) I am actually a bit disappointed that Vilnius is included in polish city list. I would like it to be added as a City State or that the Poland civ would represent Polish - Lithuanian commonwealth.
Yes Vilnius population was dominated not by Lithuanians but by foreigners (not only poles). And during the Commonwealth it was always part of Lithuania not Poland. Only one time Vilnius was controlled by Poles, it was from 1920-1940.
I would like if they have created Civ for Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
Now they just created Poland and threw in Vilnius in its list which makes me a bit mad :?
However, firaxis was never good at historical accuracy
 
Well I'm one Lithuanian on this forum

Hello, greetings from Poland to our former ally. :)

I am actually a bit disappointed that Vilnius is included in polish city list.

Is it really included? I think it was just a speculation. And we don't know yet for sure.

Yes Vilnius population was dominated not by Lithuanians but by foreigners (not only Poles).

Not always, though. Only from some point in time. Probably late 15th century or 16th century? Hard to say.

Only one time Vilnius was controlled by Poles, it was from 1920-1940.

Even shorter period. 1922 - 1939 to be precise.

After World War 1, the case of Vilnius / Wilno was similar to the case of Gdańsk / Danzig.

Vilnius was historically very important for Lithuania, but ethnically it was not Lithuanian.

Gdańsk was historically important for Poland, but ethnically it was not Polish.

Anyway importance > ethnicity, so Vilnius should not be on the Polish city list*, while Gdańsk should be.

*Unless there is Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Or some option to sign a union with Litva / Lithuania in the game.

Moderator Action: As above, drop the historical discussion, focus on BNW.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
They could take the anthem just like with Sweden or they could use some piece of music, like something from Chopin maybe.

Polish anthem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQTq07gihqg

I bet Poles can tell you about more famous pieces of music.

Current Polish anthem is from 1797. Now some Medieval climates, maybe:

"Bogurodzica" ("Mother of God") - Polish military hymn dating back at least to the 13th century (1200s):

More Polish Medieval songs:
Spoiler :
"Breve regnum" ("Short reign") - a 15th century song composed by students of the University of Kraków (Cracow):


Link to video.


Link to video.

Early 15th century, Mikołaj of Radom (Mikołaj z Radomia):

Mikołaj of Radom, "Hystorigraphi Aciem":


Link to video.

Mikołaj of Radom, "Magnificat":


Link to video.

14th century Polish song "Radości wam powiedam" (anonymous author):


Link to video.

Some modern reenactment of Medieval Polish music:


Link to video.

Some 16th century / Renaissance Polish music - 3 songs here:
Spoiler :

And a military song from the 16th century (popular also in 17th - 19th centuries):

"Idzie Żołnierz Borem, Lasem" ("A Soldier Goes Through Forests, Woods"):
Spoiler :

Another military song from late 18th centuries (popular during the Kościuszko Uprising of 1794 - 1795):

"Śpiew Włościan Krakowskich" ("A Song of Peasants of the Cracow Region"):
Spoiler :

Link to video.

Peasants capturing Russian cannons in the battle of Racławice (1794):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Racławice


Polish military songs from the Polish-Russian War of 1830 - 1831:

"Warszawianka 1831":
Spoiler :

"Grzmią pod Stoczkiem armaty" ("Cannons Are Thundering at Stoczek"):
Spoiler :

"Bracia Do Bitwy Nadszedł Czas" ("Brothers, Time for Battle Has Come"):
Spoiler :

"Jeszcze Jeden Mazur Dzisiaj" ("One More Mazur Today"):
Spoiler :

"Tysiąc Walecznych Opuszcza Warszawę" ("One Thousand Brave Men Marching From Warsaw"):
Spoiler :

Famous song during the partitioned period:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuyNZtWrtrE

Rota is much younger (text written in 1908 - almost the end of the partitioned perod).

During the partitioned period more popular was Hymn do Miłości Ojczyzny (from 1772) by Ignacy Krasicki:
Spoiler :
 
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