Concerns for BNW

But Gods & Kings brought new balance issues. I'll name a few:
The Composite Bow has not been good... Everyone with early conquest plans does a composite bow rush now.
Religion has the problem that on higher difficulties the AI has the opportunity to develop it from the start, as the AI starts with Pottery, the prerequisite for a shrine.
With a bit of bad luck - no faith boosting stuff on your landmass - the human player doesn't have a single chance to play with a very important game element, and the Byzantines might end up traitless.
And the way the AI now rushes towards the Great Library also makes this game element now almost inaccessible for the human player beyond the easy difficulties.

If the balance gets upset so much that whole game elements are getting lost, then I find that serious. Considering what happened with Gods & Kings, we should have concerns about Brave New World.

I don't see how your examples lead to "whole game elements are getting lost."

That CB rushes are dominant doesn't seem wrong to me, but there are alternatives. Warrior rushes should not be one of them.

I fail to get a religion on Immortal with an average civ only when I have some bad luck. I consider that a fair price to pay occasionally on the second-highest level. Most Civ players never have to deal with it - and the game is balanced for them.

The GL usually being out of reach on Immortal is a handicap, but hardly a whole game element. A stronger statement would be that many GW's are out of reach on Immortal - again, not because of balance issues, but because you are choosing to play with a serious handicap.
 
Very interesting reading. I'm in tapatalk so I can't quote.

First, I believe saying that CompBows are weak is not correct. On Immortal, they are essential and on Deity they are critical. You can (and usually must) take out a neighboring civ with them or at least you can successfully defend a very early DoW with them and then counterattack once promoted. If anything, they are overpowered at Immortal and below.

One of my concerns is the same I had for G&K - too much happiness and thus, removing this key decision making element from strategies. This fear had come true in that we usually have ridiculously high happiness in games, even at high levels.

Another fear has to do with the decision making on social policies. In non-cultural games, one is usually if they finish tradition and most of rationalism before the game ends by domination, space or diplomacy. That makes picking which 10-12 policies hard. Will this also be cheapened so we can pick more?

On
 
My concerns: might be too much hassle trying to keep traderoutes safe.

Or worse, it'll be like pillaging and the AI just won't threaten your trade routes. Ever.

I'm concerned that domestic TRs will be OP, and that luxury sales will still account for the majority of gold income making international TRs unnecessary.

My guess is the devs will split the difference, satisfying a statistical middle, like they do now with pillaging. They'll try to make international trade routes worthwhile, but not so powerful that players who don't want to build a navy are constantly harassed. It's a step forward in increasing the use of navies, but I doubt it will raise them to a historically accurate (or war-game balance) level.
 
I wouldn't worry about balance as much as I'd worry about the AI. I still question the ability of the AI to utilize all the news features being thrown at it, and in a timely fashion that doesn't result in ridiculous turn times. We'll just have to wait and see.
 
I'm happy with the seeming increase in happiness. I might finally be able to conquer every city on a large map without drowning in frowny faces
 
They've been developing and balancing this game for a year.

The frankenstein group, containing members of this very community, has been helping to balance the game for a significant part of that year too.

Whatever the case may be, this game will not in the slightest bit be unplayable.

What few and limited balance issues there will be won't be significant. I have a pretty good deal of trust in Firaxis, and especially in our fellow civfanatics.

One of the preview modules given for a certain author to write about is clearly broken in the diplomacy system. He says he easily won a majority of the delegates on the planet, chaining such resolutions into each other, giving him absolute rule over world congress.

The A.I. is as pathetic if not moreso at W.C. than they have been on the battlefield. :mad: I'll add the link to the article.
Destructoid: http://www.destructoid.com/preview-civilization-v-brave-new-world-253894.phtml
 
To be honest I don't completely trust the 'Frankenstein' group. I suspect much will change once the public can give its opinion son the expansion and we will see a pretty large patch. Admittedly they were locked into settler level during the video, but there appears to be too much gold, not high enough science costs, etc.
 
Is no one else worried that adding trade routes, which are a third layer of units and require constantly moving units all over the map, will seriously hurt game speed? Late games already have the tendency to slow to a crawl between turns, and it seems to me that trade units will just make that much worse.
 
OP balance problems in G&K are all based on Immortal or Deity difficulty. I don't consider those valid. Top difficulties are just what they are - a bunch of huge handicaps you have to struggle and deal with.
While I would agree that those high difficulty handicaps could in theory be better designed that does not mean that if game element is not balanced there we could call it broken.

Developers priorities probably goes like this => Prince-Emperor balance => MP balance => Immortal-Deity balance. Not much freedom to work with for that last one.

P.S. Still have to agree on early swords and siege units being a bit underwhelming.
 
My concerns for BNW are that I can't get my hands on it soon enough!
 
To be honest I don't completely trust the 'Frankenstein' group.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here, so I'm just going to take it at face value and say that I trust many members of the Frankenstein group, but they are not the devs and coders of the game and we have no idea how much weight their input carries. I think the devs listen more to them now than, say, they did in the summer of 2010.;)
 
P.S. Without actually playing game we'll unlikely reveal anything devs are unaware of. So, I think these problems are addressed. Need to wait foa 1-2 months after release to reveal actual problems.

this post bothers me. Right now the game is being developed, thngs can be changed easily if a bad change goes live it will be too late to fix. by this i mean things that are bigger than a simple balance change.
 
One of my concerns is the same I had for G&K - too much happiness and thus, removing this key decision making element from strategies. This fear had come true in that we usually have ridiculously high happiness in games, even at high levels.

It seems to me that the devs are backing off from happiness as being the main limiter in Civ 5 due to the amount of hate they got for it on release. I think they want it to matter in the early game to prevent insane REXing, but become less of an issue in the late game. Much of the happiness has been removed from policies and transferred to tenets, and most of that happiness is still local happiness. Unhappiness will now be linearly tied to combat strength (see end of the rev3games vid with Ed when he attacks the Zulus), perhaps there will be added bonuses for having high happiness as well.
 
For an army that was never good against guns in real life the Zulu sure seem to be pretty good against guns in the game. I've got a feeling that the Zulu will be OP at launch then will be patched to balance them out like what they had to do for Austria.
 
I'm actually concerned about the trade system. In the demo, the leader screens had the option to trade luxuries. But weren't caravans supposed to trade those?

Unfortunately not.:(
 
I don't see how your examples lead to "whole game elements are getting lost."
I do indeed call developing a religion, a Great Library strategy, or a swordsman rush a game element.
That CB rushes are dominant doesn't seem wrong to me, but there are alternatives. Warrior rushes should not be one of them.
I'm fine with the warrior only being good for exploration and some barb hunting, but it means it needs an upgrade earlier than the archer needs one. In vanilla swordsman rushes weren't dominant. A major handicap of the strategy is that you don't know in advance whether you will have iron or not. Only for the Iroquois it was the dominant strategy in vanilla.
Now the swordsman suffers from both the resource requirement and the fact that it comes later than the composite bow. That double whammy is a problem. For knights it's the same; they also have a resource requirement and come later.
In a balanced setup different routes should have pros and cons. Between the different types of units this was fine in vanilla. Now, with the inclusion of the composite bow, ranged has most of the pros (no resource needed & early, relatively cheap, good upgrades) while other unit lines have most of the cons (resource dependent, later, and in the case of horses, weak against cities).
It's difficult to replace one stone of a building without touching the rest, and that's what the developers did when they included the composite bow. They acted like cowboy builders.
I fail to get a religion on Immortal with an average civ only when I have some bad luck. I consider that a fair price to pay occasionally on the second-highest level. Most Civ players never have to deal with it - and the game is balanced for them.
Fair enough. I personally took Pottery away from them, because I find it too unbalanced if the AI is already snapping up all the pantheons without me having a chance of competing with them. Handicaps I find okay, but the difference of starting with Pottery or not starting with Pottery for developing a religion I find too big. I rather give them Archery instead.
The GL usually being out of reach on Immortal is a handicap, but hardly a whole game element. A stronger statement would be that many GW's are out of reach on Immortal - again, not because of balance issues, but because you are choosing to play with a serious handicap.
My problem is mainly with the Great Library. The priority the AI puts on that I find problematic, for other wonders I find it fine. For Halicarnassus I find it too low.
My suspicion is that it's actually not a wonder priority, but a tech choice priority. I've noticed that the AI can be very slow with researching Masonry (prerequisite tech for Halicarnassus). More than once I've seen an AI in the Renaissance still not having researched Masonry - they stole it from me with a spy, or they still hadn't improved that marble tile sitting just next to their capital.
A more balanced tech research choice would go a long way preventing the AI beelining the same wonders every single time - also the Mosque of Djenne and Hagia Sophia are invariably gone very early.
It's okay that a player on a stout difficulty level has a lesser chance of claiming wonders and can only go for a few, but the AI can be given a greater variety in its choices.
 
"Dictatorship of the Proletariat: +34% Tourism to civilizations with less Happiness"

Unless they reworked player-AI happiness, this is of concern to me. It would be a shame to have an entire third-tier Tenet useless on higher difficulties.
 
"Dictatorship of the Proletariat: +34% Tourism to civilizations with less Happiness"

Unless they reworked player-AI happiness, this is of concern to me. It would be a shame to have an entire third-tier Tenet useless on higher difficulties.
I think they have tweaked AI happiness down a bit for BNW, but also in a game I just played as Gandhi on Immortal I had more happiness than any of the AI's - the excessive town-spam of the AI keeps it down.
 
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