Heroes of Might and Wisdom

I just think hack models other games are not a good thing to share ;)

It would be very sad to come this far and then not use it. If you can get animated Starcraft and Warcraft models into Civ, I guarantee that this would instantly become the best Civ 5 mod ever.



Further bug report:

As you feared, heroes who can deal damage with spells bring units out of confusion at the same moment that they inflict it, due to the damage. I'm guessing that you knew this already and decided to add the damage anyway even though it breaks the confusion, since damage is ultimately more important. I think that is the right decision, but don't give up on fixing the bug!

Using Mind Control to steal a trade caravan crashes the game, even if the caravan is currently traveling between cities.
 
download here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=21980

Change Log V11:
You can access inventory without movement, so can use dispel potions
Fix bug that mind control crash game when used on trade unit or unit in city
Fix bug that friendly unit immnue to calmdown
Fix bug that embarked hero can't upgrade in sea
Fix bug that using mirror image kills the blade master
Fix bug that blink on sea without cooldown
Fix bug with blink and allure on unit in city

All Stars V9:
Add some uint 3d model (without animation)
Fix bug that some wonder still require policy branch
 
Around the time I get my second hero, the game starts to lag as way more system resources start being used. I suspect the reason for this might be the method you use to keep the heroes selectable even after movement is over. And yes, I have been remembering to disable ReloadUnitSystem for every new release. This is separate from that. This problem never makes the game crash, just makes things slow. The lag gradually gets worse as the game continues. I quit when it got to the point where it was taking 5 times as long to do anything. Even on the smallest maps possible, this still happens. The more heroes on the map, the more lag. I can dramatically speed up the game by deleting all of my heroes, but that destroys most of the point of playing this mod...

You said you added new 3D models, but I don't see them. Which ones did you add? Is the code for them in the SingleUnitModel.sql file that you told me to delete to keep my heroes from looking like spearmen? Because I've been deleting that file in both the All-Stars and Heroes mod every time. Is this conflict part of what is slowing my game down? I've noticed that Shadow Priests, Meat Wagons, Zerglings and Hydralisks now all look like spearmen. I'm assuming these are the ones that are supposed to have the new imported models. There are probably more than that, but those are the ones that I checked.

When you check-mark the button that says "Thanks for the information, but don't remind me again," the Foreign Advisor window will still pop up and remind you again every time your hero count is at 0 and a new hero becomes available from a wonder. Also, one of the buttons on that window is bugged. It says "m| |", which is meaningless, and pressing it doesn't do anything. It's next to the other button that says "Thank You."

Mind Controlled units can still be gifted or deleted, which is a great way to cheat.

Basic, Advanced, and Expert Learning trait descriptions state that the hero receives bonus promotions for Resurrection; should be Prayer.

Now that artifacts do not have might/wisdom requirements, the talents that increase might and wisdom are less impressive. For example, an extra 3 damage on skills (or 3 damage reduced from enemy skills) is good, but not that good. Similarly, 1 more wisdom only alters the chance of spell success by about 1.5%. It would be better if each primary Might and Wisdom talent increased their respective stats by 2 or 3 each rather than 1 each. Otherwise, you get more might and wisdom buffs from era than from talents!

The concept of importing 3D models gave me an idea you might be able to use later: make the Raynor's Supply Depots into a terrain improvement instead of a building. Make it available at Industrialization. Provides +2 food and +1 production for any tile on flat terrain. In addition, make two versions of them: raised and lowered. The lowered one acts like a normal improvement, but the raised one makes the tile impassable like a mountain (while still providing the same yields). Impassable to all units except workers, that is. Workers can build either one, and it costs less time to build the other one when it is already on top of an existing one, making it easy to raise and lower the depots to create and release bottlenecks for units to pass through. Also, you should use some of the code from the French Chateau to ensure that Supply Depots cannot be built next to each other. Otherwise, a player could completely surround their city with them and make themselves invincible. I'm not sure how hard this idea would be to implement. It sounds very cool, but also difficult.

You could also do a similar thing with the Protoss Pylons. Flat terrain only, cannot be next to each other. Impassable to all except workers. Cannot be lowered, but regular improvements can be built on top of it if a player wants to remove it. Provides +1 food and +1 faith and grants a combat bonus to allied units standing next to it (like the Polynesian Moai). Available at Construction technology. Provides an additional +1 faith at Theology. Provides +1 culture at Acoustics (crystal resonance music!). Provides +1 production at Electricity.

Another idea: The Protoss civ trait is fun, but still weak compared to Tauren, Dominion, Naga, or Troll. You could even them out by adding a buff to all Protoss workers that allows them to construct improvements 25-50% faster. This also makes sense thematically since in real Starcraft, Protoss can build many things quickly by warping buildings in.
 
thanks for the test, the 3d model need to enable ReloadUnitSystem and need those sql files

for the performance problem, as this mod gets larger, lua code is really inefficient now, if this version is stable enough, I'll rewrite it into DLL code

for the new ideas, yes, I like them, some idea may require DLL access, so, I think it's time to rebuild this into a DLL mod, so more interesting function and better performance can be there
 
Ok. Well, I can't do any more stability tests than I already have if I need to have ReloadUnitSystem turned on. That will cause crashing for me all by itself, which will result in false instability reports. So, good luck with the DLLs!
 
Not sure if its working as intended or bug, Endurance, 3rd secondary skill: Spell Insight which render heroes immune to all spells, including Calmdown + talent Cure.
 
Download here
Download from steam

This version fix the problem that game run very slow in the beta version.

Change Log V11:
You can access inventory without movement, so can use dispel potions
Fix bug that mind control crash game when used on trade unit or unit in city
Fix bug that friendly unit immnue to calmdown
Fix bug that embarked hero can't upgrade in sea
Fix bug that using mirror image kills the blade master
Fix bug that blink on sea without cooldown
Fix bug with blink and allure on unit in city

All stars V9:
Add some uint 3d model (without animation)
Fix bug that some wonder still require policy branch
 
I'll rebuild this mod into a DLL version, through DLL, more interesting features can be added. I need your ideas about how to make it better.

I'll change the tech/unit/building system, like in starcraft and warcraft, each race will have completely different tech tree/units/buildings. Now I'm not sure about the building system, there are 2 ways to implement them, a civilization way or a starcraft way.

If use the starcraft way, you build all building/wonders by workers (SCV, drone, peon, acolyte...), the buildings will be implemented as immobile units, you can train your combat units in these buildings.

In civilization way, you build city, and build buildings and units in city. Buildings won't be on the map like a unit.

If switch to the starcft way, there will be no cites, everything produced from building units. In that case many fun from civilization game rules will be lost, but there will be new interesting features.

I want to know if it is worthy to try to rebuild the building system into the starcraft way? Or do you think that would be unwanted since the current civilization system is better?
 
Cities are too much of a core feature to lose. I think the game won't really be Civ anymore without them. The thing that makes this mod great is that it is a hybrid between all of these games. A hybrid, not a replacement. I think we can still have the best of both worlds here. All of the major units should still be built in cities, but there is room for lots of unique terrain improvements. Maybe only a few of the improvements could produce minor specialty units of their own. Not sure what, though, if any. I'll return to that subject after some more thought.

I do like the idea of custom tech trees and more custom units/buildings/improvements for each civ. I have a feeling that a lot of power re-balancing is going to be necessary after all of this, haha.


Since you're thinking of adding lots of new features, here are random ideas off the top of my head. I will continue to brainstorm more.

You were probably already planning to do this, but each civ should have a custom worker type.
  • Workers of ALL races should be able to defend, not just Lordaeron.
  • To keep Lordaeron's Militia worthwhile, they should have a higher strength than the workers of all other races. (I'm thinking 5 strength for most races' workers. Keeping the Militia strength at 8 would be fine in that case.)
  • Wisps for Night Elves (25% higher production cost; can "chop down" the same forest tile forever without consuming the forest to provide continuous production; wisp functions as a temporary improvement on the forest until assigned to a different task; provides +4 production per turn to the tile while chopping; +5 after Scientific Theory).
  • Probes for Protoss (only 4 strength, but receives Survivalism 1, 2, and 3, to represent their durable regenerating shields).
  • Peons for Orcs (Temporarily receives Spear Throw promotion if fortified).
  • SCVs for Raynor (can work together to build improvements faster)
  • SCVs for Mengsk (can not work together, but auto-heal 5 HP per turn to adjacent units; healing from multiple SCVs stacks).
  • Drones for Kerrigan (very low production cost; build improvements instantly, but consumes the worker; repairing existing improvements does not consume the worker; strength 4 to discourage massing cheap drones for an attack).
  • Primal Zerg, Troll, Murloc, Naga, Diablo, High Heavens, Sanctuary (???)
High Heavens will need a new civ trait. Otherwise, the more custom units that get added, the stronger they will become. If you're planning on adding as many new units as I think you are planning on adding, their additional power will become too much. Besides, with the custom tech trees, it would be hard to decide when they should have access to which unit, since High Heavens won't have all of the same techs as all of the other civs. I do not have a replacement trait suggestion because I have not played the Diablo series.

Protoss do not eat the same way that other races eat. They do not even have mouths. They should not be able to build farms. Or, if they do, it should be a different type of farm. Some say that they receive sustenance from the psionic energy of the Pylons, but the wiki says otherwise. http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Protoss#Physiology One of the novels based on the game says their skin is photosynthetic. On the other hand, the back-story in the booklet that came with the first Starcraft game described the early Protoss as a tribal society based upon group-hunting and warrior rule, before the Xel'naga altered them. One of the novels tried to explain the early hunting as being for the skins only, and not the meat, since the same novel was also trying to say they got all of their sustenance from sunlight. However, this makes no sense, since hunting only to get the skins serves no practical use to the Protoss. They don't even need them to keep warm, since their bodies are naturally resistant to temperature extremes. Therefore, I personally reject the novel as un-canonical and propose that they hunted to suck the psychic energy out of the minds of animals. How you choose to interpret all of this is up to you, though.

It would be much easier to just keep the pylons as the primary food source and not have to worry about the game mechanics for extra food from photosynthesis or bonus food for livestock. The downside to this would be that if Pylons were their only farms, they wouldn't be able to build as many as other races, because of the ban on placing pylons next to each other (to prevent a player from making a city invincible by surrounding it with pylons). If you added a game mechanic that allowed ranged units to bombard improvements to pillage them, though, the ban would become unnecessary. It doesn't seem right for archers to be able to disable a pylon in one shot, but I don't like the idea of giving improvements HP, either. It's strange thematically, but is balanced for game mechanics. Pylons are still worthwhile obstacles to build if they force attackers to damage them before being able to pass through.
 
@bane
that need to override the SelectCivilization pages

@hidden
good argument about the building system, losing core feature of civilization is bad
I'll implement some improvements as units that cannot move, like Photon Cannon or a Spine Crawler
but other improvements like pylon or supply depot will be improvements as normal
for protoss, I think they have high psychic power, so will have better spell and maybe higher mana or mana recovery if I use a mana system in new version

and about how to get hero units, is it better to get them as replace of great general? when you reach enough great general point, a hero join instead of a general.
 
about how to get hero units, is it better to get them as replace of great general? when you reach enough great general point, a hero join instead of a general.

That would mean it could be a very long time before a player got their first hero, and early exploring with that first hero makes a huge difference. Most of the goodie huts would be gone by the time you finally got your hero out. Everyone would be forced to start with Honor/Khala to get a free great general from that policy. Also, any Civ that increases the generation of great generals would instantly become overpowered, because heroes are far more powerful than great generals. No, I definitely like the hero hiring system the way it is.


Slight modification to my idea for Night Elf Wisp workers: instead of raising the cost to produce the worker, add +1 gpt tile improvement maintenance cost (like a road) for every wisp harvesting from a forest. Much more balanced that way.
 
Maybe for a replacement UA for Tyrael, all heroes you hire start with the Resurrection Trait. They could also get the ability to cross mountains, with both being incorporations of angels / wings / flying.
Finally they could have ability that gives them +1 might +1 wisdom when a hero is reborn either through the talent or buying them back.

The whole ability could be called "Angelic Spirit" - All Heroes have resurrection talent. Heroes get +1 wisdom and might when they are reborn. All units can cross mountains.

If that isn't enough, could give them -25% to hero hiring cost.
 
For the unique workers, I think that it would be fine to have both Zerg (drone) and both Terran (scv) Civs to have same worker, because both do in the games. I don't think it would cheapen either race any. Unless maybe you give Dominion MULE.
 
For the unique workers, I think that it would be fine to have both Zerg (drone) and both Terran (scv) Civs to have same worker, because both do in the games. I don't think it would cheapen either race any. Unless maybe you give Dominion MULE.

Wait, no, drones are the antithesis of everything the primal zerg are! Drones are strictly hive entities and the whole concept of the primal zerg is that every zerg is independent and free! Although it is true that the primal zerg stole many forms from the swarm (including zerglings, hydralisks, and roaches), they would never steal the drone type. I have never seen the primal zerg use drones within the game. The only social organization structure they have is a pack mentality. Realistically, any of the members of a pack could perform a worker function if the pack leader ordered them to. There aren't even that many different types of primal zerg. That's why figuring out a worker for them is so hard.

And I also disagree about Mengsk and Raynor having the same type of worker. In Starcraft, it was fine for opposing armies to have the same units because there were only 3 different races. But in this mod, there are 14. It will absolutely cheapen both Mengsk and Raynor if they are the only races to share the exact same units. That's why I thought it would be neat if the SCV abilities from the Starcraft games were split into two different types. Using MULEs for one of them is not terrible, but still less than ideal, since both the Dominion and Raynor's Raiders used them, too. Also, the MULEs were always temporary units that broke down after a short time. In addition, the MULEs could only mine minerals, not build.
 
Using MULEs for one of them is not terrible, but still less than ideal, since both the Dominion and Raynor's Raiders used them, too. Also, the MULEs were always temporary units that broke down after a short time. In addition, the MULEs could only mine minerals, not build.

MULEs actually can repair too ^^. I would use them a lot in Thor rush builds to heal the Thors quick.

It would be cool if Dominions was MULE -- They take 33% higher requirements to make, last 20 for turns, but have 300% improvement speed, and have 50% higher resource upkeep as regular builders. They could have a constant burn type spell on them that can kill them at 5 hps / turn (would have to be different since burn can't kill) and then no ability to fortify to heal HPs. However, this wouldn't really be possible with Medic promotions and things like the +30 hps near friendly religion city keeping them alive.

I think that MULE is a lot better though than anything else we could come up with for Dominion because after all it is at least a worker.

Maybe for some civilizations we do unique workers and others we do unique improvements?
 
Regarding the MULE, that is a fair argument. The specifics on the stats could use some work, though. There is already a "summoned" promotion that can be given to units like this. The only way you can keep units like that alive is if they level up or if they get healed by a hero, which is honestly not overpowered at all. If that's what you want to spend your hero doing, that's your choice. The only problem with them dying after 10 turns is that if you're playing on marathon game speed, you'd be lucky to get one or two improvements completed before they died, even at 300% improvement rate. Might be better off eliminating the auto-death aspect altogether. Story-wise, in the Starcraft game, the MULEs only broke down because they were prototypes with poor battery life. One could always say that the Dominion simply fixed the problems with the prototype.

So, instead, the stats for the MULE could be: normal production cost, double improvement rate, triple unit maintenance cost. I don't like this either, though, because then it causes the Dominion to overshadow any other civ that gets a bonus to tile improvement rate in their civ trait.

Overall, I am still a fan of the two different SCVs.


townkrier said:
Maybe for some civilizations we do unique workers and others we do unique improvements?
That depends on how far epic is planning on going with this mod. I was under the impression that eventually, he planned to customize every aspect of every civ, meaning that every unit would be unique to a given civ.
 
I finish a first design of the tech trees, there are 7 tech trees, Terran, Zerg, Protoss, Human, Elf, Orc and Undead, each with different units and buildings, each tech unlock 1 building and up to 3 units.

I hope each tech tree has different power, some has more production, some has better research, some better culture. And I found it hard to design and balance these buildings.

I need your help and ideas on these buildings. I attached a spreedsheet of the building list. If you are interested in help design, you can give your ideas on the buildings, make them both interesting and balanced.

7 tech trees:
Spoiler :


 

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Epic: Here are some things to consider in the new DLL you are working on. I am not going to get to detailed, I have posted things on the workshop.

1) I have found heroes abilities are fare more favorable than the st, wis, etc. increases. Think Crowd control in combat. I would much rather taunt, confuse or allure a hero away from a city while sieging it. Using the actual unit as a military unit is secondary. Heroes fight heroes, not cities and military units, unless they have to. So far you have that down pretty good. IF you make heroes become empowered military units that can drastically attack cities and other units TOO well the complexity of the combat and ai will deteriorate and the game will be a wash. Don't get me wrong the heroes must clear the battle field typically of other heroes then they pretty much be normal units. Using their str, wis, etc is independent of their ability to damage military units, and I think that is good.
 
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