Ancient Israel what really happened?
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timtofly
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There was a period of established Hittite rule between 1600 and 1179. However there is evidence that the Hittites were active as early as 1800. The Assyrian Empire was loosing it's grasp because of the Hittites between 1720 and 1710. In 1259 there was a peace treaty between them and Egypt. That was 300 years after the Hyksos were driven out of Egypt and there is no mention of any Hyksos rule any where in those 300 years.
The first Hyksos came to Egypt around 1800. The first kingdom was in 1720. There was another wave of Hyksos in 1650 and the Egyptians finally drove them out in 1550. that was only 50 years after the established Hittite Empire.
No one has said with 100% authority who the Hyksos were, but the Hittites cannot be ruled out because their time frame was overlapping and they did seem to be breaking the Assyrian hold on the Levant during the same time that the Hyksos were establishing their hold on Egypt.
My original point was that Abraham seemed to have been able to communicate with both the Canaanite and Hyksos rulers and traveled between both areas freely. Later his offspring was forced to go to Egypt around 1750. They then left Egypt around 1450 or even 1400. The Pharaoh at that time was no longer a Hyksos. They could even have been made slaves after the Hyksos rulers where run out of Egypt. The Israelites though do not seem to be connected in any way to them either in the Bible or in any archeological findings.
This isn't what the Bible says. The view of the Pentateuch is that Jacob and his family were the only Hebrews. All Jews regarded themselves as descended from Abraham:
Genesis 12:1-2 said:
Genesis 26:2-5 said:
Genesis 28:13-14 said:
If you take the biblical narrative seriously, then it was merely one family who moved to Egypt, and they became a whole people whilst there, who moved back to Palestine. There weren't any Hebrews who "stayed behind" because Hebrews are by definition people descended from that family. God gave the land specifically to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The names you give from the Pentateuch are all members of that one family.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Plotinus said:
Yes, they are all members of the same tribe, which numbered perhaps several thousand people.
I'm not sure what surprises you so much in this. The Hebrews at that time were a small tribal society (numbering several thousand individuals). Even though tribes are not families - they certainly believe that they are. Tribes usually think of themselves as large families - and this has some grain of truth in itself, because usually members of a small tribe are more closely related to each other, than to vast majority of people from other tribes. Of course tribal societies also had their methods of preventing too high levels of genetic homogeneity (such levels which can be considered unhealthy) - for example enslaving members of other tribes, or kidnapping wifes during wars. The custom of kidnapping wifes was common among tribal societies across the globe - both in North America and other continents. Its main purpose was not to oppress women's rights, but to enrich the gene pool of their tribe (of course they didn't know what are genes, but they realized that inbreeding can be harmful - as evidenced by customs existing among Australian Aborigines, which defined certain behaviour patterns between brothers and sisters, for example that brothers and sisters must keep a distance of several meters from each other and can't come closer).
Read for example some excerpts from this book:
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b4381154;view=1up;seq=15
Another example:
And one more:
Situation was different for example among the Iroquois in North America - they were very warlike and absorbed remnants of defeated tribes into tribes of their own federation - European accounts say that among the Iroquois, native Iroquois were in minority by ca. year 1660, and majority were foreigners who joined them. Also European colonization increased social mobility between tribes.
Plotinus said:
But Abraham had multiple wifes. Later Moses even had a wife from Ethiopia:
http://www.biblefellowshipunion.co.uk/2004/sep_oct/moseseth.htm
timtofly
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Actually the Jews would only be considered descendants of Jacob/Israel. Semites could be descendants from people like Abraham, Lot, Harran. Some Arabs would attempt to trace their family back to Ishmael, Medan, Midian, and any of the other sons of Abraham.
Lot had two sons, who allegedly was the Moabites and Ammonites. Isaac had two sons: Esau and Jacob/Israel. Esau was the father of the Edomites.
Moses married a Midianite from the nomadic people group in the northern part of Arabia. These were descendants of Abraham through his son Midian.
Lot had two sons, who allegedly was the Moabites and Ammonites. Isaac had two sons: Esau and Jacob/Israel. Esau was the father of the Edomites.
Moses married a Midianite from the nomadic people group in the northern part of Arabia. These were descendants of Abraham through his son Midian.
This is so full of ignorance of ancient Egypt, biblical research and ancient Hebrews I don't know where to start. Luckily other posters do seem to know, so I won't bother at this point.
timtofly
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It is not that out of the ordinary. The problem is that the events in question take place in the ME the birth place of the first major empires and not in total isolation.
sydhe
King of Kongs
Ahab is known from Assyrian sources, and Omri is mentioned on the Mesha stone. Assyria called Israel the Land of Omri. I tend to think all the kings of Israel and Judah really existed, although the first three (Saul, David and Solomon) are encrusted in legend. Some but not all of the Judges are probably historical. Anybody before that, I'd be skeptical.
