Alternative Timelines

Well I think we don't need to do a "cut-off" if one advances to the core tech line then any alternative timeline unit, building, etc should eventually get replaced by the standard ones. In other words all the alternative timelines do is allow for stuff to be access earlier, but they all eventuly upgrade into standard units and buildings.

I don't have a clear idea in my mind how that would be put together to make for clean and fun gameplay. I do have a reasonably clear outline for how to handle it if it's a separate concurrent line parallel to the ordinary timeline. Such a place would have a clear point of starting and stopping and have a certain ease of design as in many cases one simply needs to more or less duplicate what's going on in the ordinary timeline but with an alternate timeline flavor. Are you saying that one would go through a series of steampunk techs, reach the end, and then find it necessary to back up and go through the industrial age anyway? I'm talking about replacing the industrial age for that civ what makes the effort to break with history with a different branching timeline, a separate yet similar path to the same goal of technological progress.

Well sort of. Steampunk should not replace the Industrial Era but unlock things you normally cannot get from that era. For instance you would have to discovery trains like normal but then could go beyond with the whole tracked locomotives, which would eventually upgrade into normal tanks. Thus the steampunk tanks would be weaker than normal tanks, but come much earlier.

Which would also allow for muptipul alternate timeline ages such as ...

Cogpunk Tank -> Steampunk Tank -> Early Tank

If you got a copunk tank but not steampunk tech then you would have to wait until normal tanks to upgrade that unit. Note that the Cogpunk Tank would be weaker than the Steampunk Tank.

If it works like that then wouldnt a steampunk tank be just a mechanical verison of a cavalry unit you'd get around then? and a clockwork tank would be a curiasser, no a mailed knight? It look's cool but what's the point of going through the trouble of heading off on an alternate timeline when you'll have to hit the same points as everyone else eventually.

If I had to be completely honest I don't like that method of handling the concept of alternate paths technology could take. I don't think it uses the concept as fully as creating an entirely separate technological path that, while hitting all the same points as the traditional path and leading to the same, does things slightly differently but not enough to be unbalanced. And I desperately want to persuade you, somehow, that having seperate parallel tech trees could be more fun and offer more possibilities for future expansion of gameplay, and could even be easier to design (the needed techs, buildings and units at least) by comparing them to their contemporaries in the other tech lie. Plus maybe it would be easier to make modular if it was all compartmentalized in a separate line, if that's important at all. Hydro, I depend on you wanting to try it out this way and I would like to help you any way I can if it can see at least some of my ideas tried out. I think I am helping by setting up those brainstorming threads (I'm kind of at a loss for how to conceptualize any other proposals if it's not a seperate tech tree) but if that's not enough, maybe you could show me how I could help you put in the buildings and units?

@Hydromancerx are you going to add these units in? And move the trained mammoth units into the alt-timeline folder?

Oh! Stuff I asked on the unit graphics forum for. I can hardly believe they responded. Zebra units too?

Dancing Hoskuld said:

@Hydromancerx are you going to add these units in? And move the trained mammoth units into the alt-timeline folder?

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Sounds reasonable. It should follow the same upgrade path as the elephant except have +1 strength and polar stats like the current mammoths have. I can always list them later.

steampunk1880 said:

If it works like that then wouldnt a steampunk tank be just a mechanical verison of a cavalry unit you'd get around then? and a clockwork tank would be a curiasser, no a mailed knight? It look's cool but what's the point of going through the trouble of heading off on an alternate timeline when you'll have to hit the same points as everyone else eventually.

If I had to be completely honest I don't like that method of handling the concept of alternate paths technology could take. I don't think it uses the concept as fully as creating an entirely separate technological path that, while hitting all the same points as the traditional path and leading to the same, does things slightly differently but not enough to be unbalanced. And I desperately want to persuade you, somehow, that having seperate parallel tech trees could be more fun and offer more possibilities for future expansion of gameplay, and could even be easier to design (the needed techs, buildings and units at least) by comparing them to their contemporaries in the other tech lie. Plus maybe it would be easier to make modular if it was all compartmentalized in a separate line, if that's important at all. Hydro, I depend on you wanting to try it out this way and I would like to help you any way I can if it can see at least some of my ideas tried out. I think I am helping by setting up those brainstorming threads (I'm kind of at a loss for how to conceptualize any other proposals if it's not a seperate tech tree) but if that's not enough, maybe you could show me how I could help you put in the buildings and units?

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But I don't see how you could keep one from researching the core techs, since they are needed. Nor why would technology not eventually be discovered? For instance just because you make steam powered robots don't mean someday you cannot discover electronics and then make electronic robots.

As for parallel trees how would you ever do that? They need to eventually lead back to major choke points on the tree.

I would also like to let you know that I appreciate you enthusiasm in theses brains storming topics, but It will be awhile until we get to all of these since much of the core stuff needs to be made before we add onto that.

It one reason I have not done the Galactic Era yet. Since there is a lot more I need to build up before it can be implemented.

Hydromancerx said:

As for parallel trees how would you ever do that? They need to eventually lead back to major choke points on the tree.

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Why? I am serious why should they? Why can't I develop Space technology with steam punk rather than electronic? I.E. "Space tech A" requires "Steam Punk Z" or "Electronics 2". It makes getting it to work more difficult I suppose.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

Why? I am serious why should they? Why can't I develop Space technology with steam punk rather than electronic? I.E. "Space tech A" requires "Steam Punk Z" or "Electronics 2". It makes getting it to work more difficult I suppose.

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The question "why" should be the other way. Why shouldn't a steampunk society be restricted from researching electronics? Why can't they discover the same stuff that the core civs do?

And sure there can be OR techs to bypass things. I think we need to flash out the tree better on what unlocks what and stuff.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

@Hydromancerx are you going to add these units in? And move the trained mammoth units into the alt-timeline folder?

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Ok here are the stats. They are a combo of the elephant units with the mammoth features.

Ballista Mammoth
Type: Mounted
Strength: 10
Movement: 1
Cost: 100
Req Tech: Mounted Archery, Ancient Ballistics, Megafauna Domestication
Req Resource: Mammoth
Req Building: Mammoth Trainer
Upgrades From: None
Upgrades To: Bombard Mammoth

Special Abilities

• +30% City Attack
• +50% vs Catapult
• +50% vs Trebuchet
• +50% vs Mounted Units
• +25% vs Melee Units
• Targets Mounted Infantry First in Combat Outside Cities
• Can Destroy Tile Improvements and Bombard City Defenses (-5% Per/Turn)
• Can Perform Ranged Attacks
• Range 1
• Accuracy 30
• Starts with Arctic Combat I, Arctic Combat II and Arctic Combat III

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Bombard Mammoth
Type: Mounted
Strength: 23
Movement: 1
Cost: 200
Req Tech: Calvary Tactics, Gunpowder, Megafauna Domestication
Req Resource: Mammoth, Iron and Sulpher
Req Building: Mammoth Trainer
Upgrades From: Ballista Mammoth, War Mammoth
Upgrades To: Gunship

Special Abilities

• +40% City Attack
• +50% vs Catapult
• +50% vs Trebuchet
• +50% vs Mounted Units
• Targets Mounted Infantry First in Combat Outside Cities
• Can Destroy Tile Improvements and Bombard City Defenses (-10% Per/Turn)
• Can Perform Ranged Attacks
• Range 1
• Accuracy 40
• Starts with Arctic Combat I, Arctic Combat II and Arctic Combat III

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@strategyonly

Bugs

1. I also noticed that the Bombard Elephant need to fix its requirements. It has Ivory and then Ivory OR Sulphur or Iron. It should be fixed to "Ivory AND IRON AND Sulphur".

2. Also the Bombard Elephant and Ballista Elephant are National Units. They should be general units.

I'm now wondering if people actually bother to read/vaguely remember my old posts... mostly because I haven't heard any comentary on most of my ideas. Oh'well been a page or so.

To recap, my idea was that the new *Ages* require a particular project (a cheap one) to be built to begin. Once this is founded you are set on a particular branch of the *Ages* tree. You aren't restricted from researching any tech (with a preceding tech(s) obtained), you just can't actually build several of the units/buildings/wonders without being on the tech path. Conversely you can't build several equivalent unit/buildings/wonders from other *Ages*... including the core one. You do however get access to various promotions that grant bonuses vs. that *Ages* particular units. Perhaps bonuses that are on different paths, but require knowledge of techs from other paths to activate.

For instance, particular defenses against that type of unit. Example: cogpunk units are weak against getting sand and such clogging up the works. So if you have a sand source/pit and have obtained the right techs... you can have a city defense that involves dumping sand into the works or blowing sand towards the contructs to get the same effect. To counter a promotion that adds a framework of oil cloth shielding that reduces the negatives from sand a attacks. Steampunk has a counter involving dowsing the machines with water... thermodynamics kick in. However the shielding is heavy and slows the units movement speed.

Basically the project both locks you into a sub*Age* and opens up those techs to anyone your in contact with. It also adds in a slew of bonuses to various techs and units. As well as, access to specific units/buildings. You just have to end the extra bonuses techs line on specific tech choke points. From then onwards no new techs specifically from that *Age* come around (you aren't locked out of past ones though)... bonuses from those specific projects/techs may kick in no where near the *Age* you got them in. Certain later techs are get cheaper to research due to synergy bonuses. This is the legacy of the past ages.

If you make specific wonders (national or world) required to research the *Age* starting project and those wonders mutally exclusive you can have several independants groups with there own version of that age. As far as I know you can't have the same project researchable by several independant groups successfully so slightly different *Ages* say cogpunk of three different flavors with minor changes on the bonus dependant on specific wonders that allowed you to found them.

I think this is the basic framework that will allow the alternate *Ages* to work without needing to rewrite the base code. Any thoughts?

Ok I had a rough idea on how to differentiate between say a steampunk tech tree and a core tech tree. What if we had an alternate timeline "Civic"? One where you could pick if you want to go down the "steampunk" path or the normal path.

While I don't think you can limit techs with civics I do know you can limit buildings with civics and you can link buildings to techs. For instance lets say you want to build a steampunk related building. You would have to have that civic enabled and then it unlocks a specific steampunk tech associated with that building. These would be non tradable techs of course. In addition all steampunk buildings would be disabled if you changed civics.

Note that the opposite can be true for core buildings that become disabled if you change to a steampunk type of civic.

For example "Steampunk" Civic could be unlocked at Steam Power tech.

What do you think? Kinda cool no?

@Nectratoid. I read, but I'm having trouble visualizing it, if you could give a few examples of components and how it would all work together. Well, I've just read your proposal a couple of times and am not getting it, sorry.

@Hydro. Yeah i think it's cool as a starting mechanism. It could be yet another civic category. But, that would be kind of meta. And wouldn't the AIs have a problem with switching back and forth at inopportune times? And what keeps everyone from being steampunk when you were talking about it being for only a handful of civs. And would one steampunk tech lead to another like a string of airship techs or better engines. I'm still rooting for a separate tech tree but a steampunk civic is a decent way to model it with it's own pros and cons.

And to answer your question why can't they discover the same stuff core civs do, I'm storytelling a bit but if your society has taken the time and effort to embrace this new way of doing things, why would they look at their neighbors and see something of value. The enlightened people experiencing an ancient golden age would scoff at the lives of the crude barbarians around them, the retro-future society would tsk at the backwards nuclear-fearing nations of the world. By going down the alternate history path you are guiding your society in saying our way is the best way.

Besides i was thinking of linking electronics with electromechanical computational engines and aetheric communications, two late steampunk techs i was going to propose as the start for reintegration with the main timeline.

In fact, if you give me, oh say, 3-4 days i could sketch out and show you as an example of everything i'm arguing for a line of technologies from Military Science, Steel, Steam Power, Thermodynamics and Medicine all the way to Electronics, Aerodynamics, Naval Aviation, Radar, Mass media, and Modern Seismology while still hitting all the important points that prepare it for the future (something by another name to emulate refining and electricity as well as other stuff but with different stats). The way i hope to design it, a steampunk civ could reintegrate with the modern age at electronics, or use their late age equivalents of fission and rocketry to make a smooth transition into the retro future age (with some buffer techs that I'll also outline if i have time)

@Hydro. Yeah i think it's cool as a starting mechanism. It could be yet another civic category. But, that would be kind of meta. And wouldn't the AIs have a problem with switching back and forth at inopportune times? And what keeps everyone from being steampunk when you were talking about it being for only a handful of civs. And would one steampunk tech lead to another like a string of airship techs or better engines. I'm still rooting for a separate tech tree but a steampunk civic is a decent way to model it with it's own pros and cons.

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Well if you had the civic unlocked at say a tech that required a building and/or wonder then the AI may not have very many options to switch back and forth from if you cannot even unlock the other civics.

And to answer your question why can't they discover the same stuff core civs do, I'm storytelling a bit but if your society has taken the time and effort to embrace this new way of doing things, why would they look at their neighbors and see something of value. The enlightened people experiencing an ancient golden age would scoff at the lives of the crude barbarians around them, the retro-future society would tsk at the backwards nuclear-fearing nations of the world. By going down the alternate history path you are guiding your society in saying our way is the best way.

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*nods* This is why I think the Civic method maybe the best way to go since its more like a culture or philosophy on how to tech up. Note that we will always need some core techs that all timlines use but with a civic we can simulate different tech trees without having to make a different tech tree.

In fact, if you give me, oh say, 3-4 days i could sketch out and show you as an example of everything i'm arguing for a line of technologies from Military Science, Steel, Steam Power, Thermodynamics and Medicine all the way to Electronics, Aerodynamics, Naval Aviation, Radar, Mass media, and Modern Seismology while still hitting all the important points that prepare it for the future (something by another name to emulate refining and electricity as well as other stuff but with different stats). The way i hope to design it, a steampunk civ could reintegrate with the modern age at electronics, or use their late age equivalents of fission and rocketry to make a smooth transition into the retro future age (with some buffer techs that I'll also outline if i have time)

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Sure take as much time as you need. This is all still planning phase. I do not plan to implement any of this until much later.

Hmm, what about using the cultural age mechanic I am working on (far from finished yet) to choose between the different timeline options as most of them are not only a tech choice but a cultural thing as well.
Total accumulated culture lets you progress through the cultural ages and at the end of each you have to choose the next age from a list depending on your old cultural age so you have to make a choice which of them you'd like.

AIAndy said:

Hmm, what about using the cultural age mechanic I am working on (far from finished yet) to choose between the different timeline options as most of them are not only a tech choice but a cultural thing as well.
Total accumulated culture lets you progress through the cultural ages and at the end of each you have to choose the next age from a list depending on your old cultural age so you have to make a choice which of them you'd like.

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How would your idea work?

Hydromancerx said:

How would your idea work?

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Similar to how you progress through a tech tree with accumulated beakers you progress through cultural ages with culture.
At the end of each cultural age (when you have accumulated enough culture to progress to the next), you get a list to choose from depending on your current cultural age. Unlike a tech tree, those ages you do not choose you cannot research later. So consider it like a tech tree in which you can only move onwards.

It is supposed to represent different cultural pathways (art, literature, the focus on different aspects of life) and depending on the ages you choose you get access to special techs/units/buildings/heroes/... while you don't get access to others. The original idea was that it would make culture a lot more valuable.
That kind of fits with the alternative timelines.
So I would suggest making them part of the cultural age tree.

Example: At the end of the paleolithic cultural age you decide to choose megafauna domestication as your next cultural age instead of the normal neolithic choice. So you experience the alternative timeline of a culture focusing in art and tech on the domestication of big animals.

You could make the choice of alternate ages an And/Or toggleable option in game settings for those who want to explore them differently.

For example if you initially choose the option of allowing alternate ages in the game settings, you could choose locked ages, where you had to choose which age path you wanted to go down.
OR
you could choose open alternate ages, where you could simultaneously explore expanded technology trees in both ages.This would allow expanded gameplay and would give people the choice to explore the ages in a progressive way.
(this would also be good if different countries ended up on different paths, technology paths could influence each other. ex- steam tanks vs tanks... one could then pursue combustion tanks if they trump steam tanks)


You could even have triggering events or wonders open up or exclude a path randomly so that either one or another, or both ages could be explored simultaneously or exclusively. (Could be a more interesting mix of progression). Maybe ages could be checked off that people want to exclude , or randomly/specifically include. (some people might hate a age idea [i hate the idea of megafauna]). More genre specific ideas could be regulated to an age category (like dinosaurs on earth) or cyberpunk, or even mythical (more fantasy stuff like magic, or gods, or other less popular genre stuff) so those who don't wish them could turn them off.

This might be an interesting way to include debated content, you could create misc or genre age packs which could be toggled. Heck it might be possible to beta test technology changes, or any experimental age this way, would be nice to toggle on/off any age you would want and not be forced to play it. (some people don't like the future [not me, i love speculative/whatif fiction])

Okay, simplified explaination of what I mean.

In generic terms:

1) You get the prerequisit techs/buildings/wonders a project *Age punk* is made available.

2) Once the project is built it opens up a sidebar tech tree that isn't available until said *Age Steampunk* project is actually built. The techs all have a requirerment that requires that at least one of the activating projects exists in a city that Civ controls, somewhere (or whereever said projects exist in game terms). Much like getting access to nukes require the Manhatten project to be completeld. (Not sure what happens if you conqure the city with the project in game terms.)

3) The techs are then researchable by any Civ at that point. Though it may take contact with Civ with one of said *Age* projects, if possible, as your won't have reason to bother with this tech line if required/relivant the*Age* doesn't actually happen.) You may want to make a project needed for the Core as well instead of making the *Core Age* up automatic. There project should take only a few turns.

4) Most of the actual units/buildings are not usable without one of the relivant projects under your control. However things like the anti-unit from that *Age* promotions are. That and certain other *Age punk* projects get bonuses from understanding the tech the other guys are using. Example your *CogPunk* factory gets a boost from figuring out *Steampunk* power and such, but it isn't as good as a later factory type building, age and visa versa.

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No *Age punk* should require a past *Age punk* though it may give you access faster due to a needed wonder existing. At least 2 optional *Age punks* need to exist with the core at any given time and a few similar projects need to exist to prevent one group hogging that *Age*... unless an option for a national project exists. If so that means things are easier.

I'm not sure if you can, but make the optional option in custom game make it so the projects don't exist if unused. Besides hiding the *Age punk* techs that is all you should need to do to edit this out. Well that and any *Age* specific bonuses/negative.

Please respond to the numbered section of my post if you confused by something... or just ask about specifics.

@Necratoid

Ok how the heck would you gre the game to do all that? Seriously I have been trying to use existing features such as civics, new techs on the existing tech tree, buildings, etc. A whole new screen and a separate tech tree. Oy!