Modular Religions

Arakhor said:

I did notice in my game that the civs were pretty slow to research religious techs if they already had one or two religions and that Kemetism spread immediately to the Egyptian capital once I (the Siamese) had researched it.

Still, no Rodnovery in my game though, due to it bundled with Asatru, so it looks like my idea for pseudo-random religions might have legs.

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I always play with "divine prophets" on. With that option, religions are founded by Great Prophets.
If you are the first to research a religion, you get a free Great Prophet, which you can use to found that religion.

*lightbulb above head* what if every civ can only ever get 1 free Great Prophet from being the first to research a religion tech? This would spread out the religions over the various civs much better. A civ that has a massive tech lead over the rest would still get one "free" religion when it is the first to research the religion tech, but would need to generate additional Great Prophets the normal way to found additional religions. If the tech leader doesn't get a free Great Prophet from a tech, the second, third or even fourth civ that researches the tech gets the free Great Prophet, depending on whether the faster civs already got their free Great Prophet or not.

The way I'd program it would be:

-divine prophets game option gets turned on by default. Necessary to found religions with normally-generated Great Prophets.

-every civ gets an individual flag RECEIVED_FREE_GREAT_PROPHET, unset at game start

-every religion tech gets an individual flag GIVEN_FREE_GREAT_PROPHET, unset at game start

-When a civ researches a religion tech, and both flags RECEIVED_FREE_GREAT_PROPHET for that civ and GIVEN_FREE_GREAT_PROPHET for that religion are unset, the civ gets a free Great Prophet and the flags for both that civ and that religion get set. The Great Prophet can then be used to found that religion.

-When a religion gets founded, the flag GIVEN_FREE_GREAT_PROPHET for that individual religion also gets set.

-The AI must be programmed not to trade away the tech of any religion that hasn't been founded yet. Also save game must be adapted etc.

What about removing those religion techs and let each player found a single religion using great prophet. I think this would need more buildings which give great prophet points.

alberts2 said:

What about removing those religion techs and let each player found a single religion using great prophet. I think this would need more buildings which give great prophet points.

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Connecting religions to techs is necessary to keep a resemblance of historical accuracy. I have also considered requiring a Great Prophet to found any religion always, but that would require many more Great Prophets.

As every Great Person generated increases the points cost of future Great Persons, generating more Great Prophet points would decrease the number of other types of Great Person.

Giving all civs one Great Prophet (only one time per civ) the moment they are actually capable of founding a new religion (when they research a tech of a religion that hasn't been founded yet) would be the best compromise. Civs that already have founded a religion, then can't found another one even when they research the tech, unless they generate a Great Prophet the normal way.

alberts2 said:

What about removing those religion techs and let each player found a single religion using great prophet. I think this would need more buildings which give great prophet points.

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If any civ can only found one religion, then if the number of civs in the game is lower than the number of possible religions, only the older religions will get founded.

Noriad2 said:

Connecting religions to techs is necessary to keep a resemblance of historical accuracy.

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I don't think C2C is or was build to be a really historical accurate mod so that should not matter.

alberts2 said:

What about removing those religion techs and let each player found a single religion using great prophet. I think this would need more buildings which give great prophet points.

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I prefer this suggestion over the others.

Why not just enable religion through "normal" tech (such as Naturopathy for Druidism), but don't give a free Prophet for the first one to discover it, the civ has to get a Great Prophet and sacrifice it to found the religion. It's also usually not very hard to have a Great Prophet as your first GP.

That way, the civ ahead in tech won't found every religion, founding a religion has a significant cost (a great person that could have been used to build the shrine for example) that will naturally prevent a civ from trying to found them all, and "Great Prophet farming" won't be possible.

Edit: I'm not sure if that's the same thing alberts2 suggested; I understood from alberts2 that any civ would be able to found at most 1 religion, which sounds a bit harsh. If you meant the same thing as what I just posted, sorry about the confusion.

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This whole discussion is nonsensical.

I just typed a lengthy response. But I won't post it.

C2C is not a Historically accurate Mod it is a What If Mod. Let that sink in to those that keep trying to say that it is or their agenda is to push it to being one. It won't ever happen.

And if you want to change Divine Prophet Option talk with T-brd.

Oh and I Want (because I Play it!) Multiple Religion Spread a Main Game Set Up Option and Not just a BUG Option after thought. And I want it On by default too.

And I want Limited Religion Option entirely removed from the Mod. And I want Choose Religion removed. And I want......yada yada yada...... Sheesh!!!
JosEPh

Rwn said:

Why not just enable religion through "normal" tech (such as Naturopathy for Druidism), but don't give a free Prophet for the first one to discover it, the civ has to get a Great Prophet and sacrifice it to found the religion. It's also usually not very hard to have a Great Prophet as your first GP.

That way, the civ ahead in tech won't found every religion, founding a religion has a significant cost (a great person that could have been used to build the shrine for example) that will naturally prevent a civ from trying to found them all, and "Great Prophet farming" won't be possible.

Edit: I'm not sure if that's the same thing alberts2 suggested; I understood from alberts2 that any civ would be able to found at most 1 religion, which sounds a bit harsh. If you meant the same thing as what I just posted, sorry about the confusion.

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That's how I understood alberts as well. If his idea was different, I agree with RNW

1. We are not going to change the way religions currently work at all.

2. We will be making all individually optional.

3. We may add in new ones. That will include a new tech for the new religion to be founded.

4. I have many ideas collected together including some working stuff that fits some of the suggestions by Noriad2. The first step in this is "Maturing Religions" with a later "Evolving Religions" if we must go "historically accurate".

Maturing Religions is based on the way religions work in the "Total War" mod by jojoweb.

The maturity of the religion defines what you can build. Temples, monasteries, cathedrals all require increasing maturity of the religion. This maturity is a world level property which means many nations can contribute. Contributing to a religion will improve your diplomatic relation with other nations that have that religion as a state religion. If it is not your state religion that you are contributing towards then you may get a revolutions hit (if on) depending on your civics. If your religion civics are open then you will get less of a hit than if they are closed for example.

In "Total War" you mature a religion by spending Religious Concepts on that religion. Each religion can use differing numbers of each Religious Concept eg one religion may use a maximum of 3 Motherhood while another can use 6. You get a Religious Concept by being the first to learn a tech. Replace the phrase "Religious Concept" with "Religious Consumable Finite Resource" and you have something that is more like C2C.

From previous talks with TB I think this is in part the direction he wanted to go with Divine Prophets.

Further, with the ideas from Sevo's "Faces of God" mod we can add in some extra stuff for tweaking your religion in the main directions you want. The intent is that you will be able to use a Great Prophet to define the direction of your faith, war or paradise on earth and many others. Being able to do this will depend on the maturity of the religion. Being able to do many will depend on the Piety of your nation.

(National?) Piety is another property at the nation level. It is based partly on how much you have contributed to the maturing of the religion.

That sounds interesting. I quite like the Resurrection and Karma mechanics in the game and this seems to be a similar concept.

Of course we could just use Platyping's World Tech mod to stop anyone researching a religion tech after someone else has. If Divine Prophet is off.

I'm all limbs for implementing Piety as yet another "national" resource.
Would also suggest Prestige too (CK2, I hear ya), for different uses obviously (could be economical, political or even military).
Heck, I doubt it's THAT hard to implement new non-consumable stackable-over-time "resources", is it?
You already implemented totally NEW stuff like Flammability and Crime, so why not a few more?

Also, I do like the idea of each nation being limited to only one LOCAL religion (of your choice).
I think it's even ALREADY doable with a combo of some current options.
So why not make it a default thing, that you can only get other religions through osmosis of internationalism?
Like, each religion having a separate "leveling bar" per nation (or each nation having a bar per possible religion, lol).
Then, you must gather Piety for THAT religion (accumulating through buildings over time, or specific unit actions giving "Piety EXP") to actually get spread in that city (and over time, the entire country).
Meaning, you would have a resource of "potential religion X" sitting in your cities (which you got through, say, a tech) - and only after gathering enough Piety EXP for THAT religion in THAT city, it would actually get spread there too.
It would actually make sense, since in a locked-in (as in, no contacts with neighbors) society there's no chance (or logic) for a rise of a second religion - and even first religions also take time to spread even AFTER it's "discovered".
And as of Piety EXP, it can even be done precisely the way Great General works, but for this new Great Priest giving EXP to locally existing potential religions instead (maybe even without dying, but then it would give only small fractions of what is needed; this can also give birth to even more promotions, lol).

So, what do you think?

The game is already WAY too slow. Adding yet more national resources will slow the game down even more, which would be ridiculous.

IF that's the major reason of the game being slow - well, it's a pity then.

Well, the main things that slow down the game are inflation, storms, sea tunnels, massive unit spam and five properties acting on fat-cross tiles for every city in the game, which is why you should not use BarbarianCiv either (and should play with as few civs as you can manage).

Which again makes it boring - since the major fun (well, for me) is to conquer a world FULL of opponents, not mostly-empty.

abcd613 said:

Also, I do like the idea of each nation being limited to only one LOCAL religion (of your choice).

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Not what the current set of religions are designed for. They are designed for you to be able to select the religion you need for the current time. Unfortunately the AI was never coded to allow the AI to make best use of it.

edit I do have some basic stuff towards an alternate where you evolve your religion as you go. It will require some changes to the way the AI decides on relationships as it will be more the tenants of the religion that will affect the relationships between nations.

Arakhor said:

The game is already WAY too slow. Adding yet more national resources will slow the game down even more, which would be ridiculous.

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Neither of the religious properties are diffusion ones. They are proposed to be static. One world level one for each religion and one national one for each religion. Changing the values of both will require someone to do something and they will probably only be used to limit what sets of buildings you can build. They will be nothing like the diffusion properties like crime. No complex calculations per turn or per unit.

That's fine then.

To be honest, I'd be perfectly happy if properties only affected the city tile itself and didn't diffuse. The game would probably run so much faster then.

Rwn said:

I hope this can make it to the SVN since there are a LOT of files involved (including in core XML/) so it will quickly become obsolete if the main files are changed. Note to Dancing Hoskuld: it includes (and supersedes) the updated BuildingInfos and TechInfos files that I posted in the XML investigation thread.

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So, with DH's recent changes to Rodnovery, are Rwn's efforts on modular religions going to be ignored for now?