Ask a Mormon, Part 4

I hope you understand, if I haven't read all the past threads, and these questions have been asked before. (I actually few times begun to read them, but got not far, and thus haven't read eve the newer posts).

So, there's a Finnish organisation, Uskontojen uhrien tuki (support of the victims of religions), and their webpage has some words about mormons too. Their attitude is somewhat hostile, and does not reflect my attitude. I've tried to translate some parts below, which wasn't very easy, since I don't know much about terminology.

They claim that Mormons, when they come to your door don't tell you...
That God is glorified [elevated] human, who has body of flesh and blood

That Jesus is Satan's brother, his death on cross absolves only the original sin, and that Jesus' father is human consisting of flesh and bones

That there's actually uncountable number of gods and that good men can be elevated as gods in the mormon church, as polygamists, because the new union that gives salvation is polygamy, not the protection of the blood of Christ

That there won't be salvation outside the mormon church

That they join long time ago dead women to now living Mormon priests with sealing [?], because acoording to their doctrine no woman can be saved without a mormon husband

Their sacred underwear, "Garment", that every mormon who goes through temple [-education] promises to use 24h a day.

where the tenth, 10% of your gross income, or other donations are used. In mormon theology the tenth is a law, irrevocable, stated by God. If you don't pay the tenth, you're stealing from the God.

To which extent these claims are true, and how true is that you wonät tell these while doing missionary work?
 
To which extent these claims are true, and how true is that you won't tell these while doing missionary work?

That God is glorified [elevated] human, who has body of flesh and blood

Basically, yes. We don't go into this specifically (we don't teach doctrine that deep/obscure as missionaries) but a lot of people are aware of this and we answer honestly any questions that are asked.

That Jesus is Satan's brother,

We believe this (we believe that they are brothers in the same sense that we are all brothers and sisters of both of them) but again, don't see the need to bring it up. if people ask, we tell them.

his death on cross absolves only the original sin,

We don't believe in Original Sin.

and that Jesus' father is human consisting of flesh and bones

Jesus' father is God, so see above.

That there's actually uncountable number of gods

Sure (for a wide enough definition of "god"), although we really only worship/focus on God the Father.

and that good men can be elevated as gods in the mormon church,

Yes - as well as women.

as polygamists,

Polygamy is not necessary for salvation.

because the new union that gives salvation is polygamy, not the protection of the blood of Christ

Nope, salvation is through the Atonement of Christ.

That there won't be salvation outside the mormon church

Well, yes and no - salvation is conditional on receiving ordinances that currently only the LDS Church has the authority to perform, but that doesn't mean non-Mormons can't get into heaven.

That they join long time ago dead women to now living Mormon priests with sealing [?],

Not true.

because acoording to their doctrine no woman can be saved without a mormon husband

Well, again - to attain the highest level of salvation a woman needs to be sealed to a man - and a man to a woman.

Their sacred underwear, "Garment", that every mormon who goes through temple [-education] promises to use 24h a day.

True, sure - we discuss this as missionaries with anyone who asks but normally discuss it more if/when they are preparing to go to the temple. It is not worn in situations where underwear isn't normally worn, is all I will say.

where the tenth, 10% of your gross income, or other donations are used. In mormon theology the tenth is a law, irrevocable, stated by God. If you don't pay the tenth, you're stealing from the God.

Yes, to be a member in good standing requires paying a tithe of 10% of one's income - as missionaries we tell people this beforehand, no point in surprising them.

Of course, what we tell people at their door is much less in depth than what we tell them if they agree for us to teach them the missionary lessons . . .

I hope that helps.

One other thing - the name of the organization that made this list seems atheist-oriented, yet many of these claims are objections on theological lines; eg why should someone "supporting the victims of religion" care whether someone believes in one god, three, or 437, and why should it matter whether salvation which won't actually occur comes through polygamy, the blood of Christ, or one's one actions? Just curious - I have heard other Christians and atheists both criticizing us, but their objections shouldn't really overlap that much.
 
One other thing - the name of the organization that made this list seems atheist-oriented, yet many of these claims are objections on theological lines; eg why should someone "supporting the victims of religion" care whether someone believes in one god, three, or 437, and why should it matter whether salvation which won't actually occur comes through polygamy, the blood of Christ, or one's one actions?

Thanks for the answers. You're very right there, it is an odd site. It isn't maintained by atheists, the raison d'etre seems to be cult-like religions. I was equally amazed to found theological curiosities there, like the number of gods, and I've thought about writing to them about that.

It seems the site has both atheist and Lutheran contributors, and both of them accept "weird" theological dogmas as some sort of oppression. I'd guess many Finnish Lutherans would object even the dogmas of their own church, if they knew them better.

And yes, they don't explicitly say that mormons oppress people, they're just saying that you're a bunch of weirdos.

Here's the only page in English I found on that site.
 
I believe they aren't too critical about their publishing. It's probably maintained by 10 or so people who have been actual victims some time in their past. They have some good things there too, about really manipulative groups, but they haven't thought properly out, what is oppressive, and what is just "weird".
 
I see. That explains a lot . . .

Incidentally, I have a friend who served his mission in Finland (and who let me live with him for a week and a half at his mom's townhouse - she was in Germany - when I got kicked out of my apartment).
 
Are you offended by the belief expressed by most mainstream Christians that Mormons aren't Christians at all?
 
Well, I don't know that most mainstream Christians don't consider us Christian, but I know plenty don't.

Anyways, I am not offended, and in my experience most others aren't. Partly we don't consider it hugely important (the word "Christian" was never used by Jesus to describe his followers and wasn't used very much in the NT), and besides, to say we aren't Christians requires defining what a Christian is; if someone says Mormons aren't Christians, I will ask them how they define "Christians", half the time they come up with some bizarre convoluted answer that seems to have been made just for the purpose of excluding us.
 
When you consider early Christians, for example Paul - do you think of him as Mormon or more uh... nondenominational?

And then there is the Book of Mormon . . . I really couldn't think of a way that the church is at all what it claims to be if the Book of Mormon isn't what it claims to be. And the Book of Mormon is full of things that make even me, on occasion, scratch my head. It has several references to things that are (or appear to be) anachronistic, although I think that said anachronisms could very well indeed only be apparent. And the book itself deals with God intervening specifically in the course of the history of a relatively small group of people, so if you can't accept that, you can't accept Mormonism. Again, the only way to believe in the Book of Mormon is by asking God about it

I agree with the anachronisms - they're there. When I pointed out some of the problems I came across to some missionaries and their host who stopped by my house, the host replied that some Mormons believe that the book of Mormon is a fictional tale, yet God-inspired. The missionaries freaked out a bit at that! (The host was related to one of the apostles, so mainstream Mormon I would think.) Is this a view you've run across? Would you consider someone a Mormon who held this view? Are the Articles of Faith the only must-believe part of Mormonism? (The defense worked. What's the point of discussing the faults in a document if the truth of the document is irrelevent to being Mormon?)
 
When you consider early Christians, for example Paul - do you think of him as Mormon or more uh... nondenominational?

Well, "Mormon" is a nickname given to members oft he Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but we do believe that he would have pretty much the same beliefs/doctrines that we do.

I agree with the anachronisms - they're there. When I pointed out some of the problems I came across to some missionaries and their host who stopped by my house, the host replied that some Mormons believe that the book of Mormon is a fictional tale, yet God-inspired. The missionaries freaked out a bit at that! (The host was related to one of the apostles, so mainstream Mormon I would think.) Is this a view you've run across? Would you consider someone a Mormon who held this view? Are the Articles of Faith the only must-believe part of Mormonism? (The defense worked. What's the point of discussing the faults in a document if the truth of the document is irrelevent to being Mormon?)

I think that saying that it isn't actually written by ancient prophets who live in the Western Hemisphere, defeats its purpose as "another Testament of Jesus Christ". I mean, it isn't even the basis of all of our doctrine, the reason that it's important is partly because of what it says but largely because of what it is. And given how often church leaders testify of both its importance and its origin, to claim that it is something else is to deny that they know what they are talking about - at that point one may question what it means to call oneself "Mormon" at all.
 
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