Merging modmods

Nightinggale

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Within the last few days it has been questioned if modmods of RaR should be merged into a single modmod. This thread is meant as a place to debate if it should be done and if it's done, how should it be done.

Right now there is quite a number of people, who have their own modified version of RaR and keeping them all up to date is time consuming and counter productive.

One major drawback with a single modmod is that everybody will end up with the same mod, which mean we would have to agree on designs were we have a history of not agreeing. I propose making new features/addons optional. That way features can be turned on and off to fit the taste of each person.

We have 3 ways to make features optional:
  • XML
  • game options
  • compiler flags
Setting the differences at compile time is faster, but it only works if everybody compiles their own DLL. I think this option should only be considered if we do run into performance problems.

Name:
We should agree on a single name. I used RaRE (Religion and Revolutions Extended), but it died when more or less everything from it ended up in RaR 1.6. It sounds like a decent name for what is basically RaR with a number of optional extensions.

Source:
We should put the source somewhere where everybody can reach it. I propose using sourceforge because it has unlimited storage space. They support both svn and git and I would prefer git because it is superior when it comes to stuff like branches, which could be very useful. Also since git stores a clone of what is on the server itself, you can pretty much do anything while being offline except for syncing commits. Svn needs an internet connection for more or less anything, including just reading the log. Even if you have an allways on connection, reading data from your own HD is way faster than reading from the svn server. Also it is my impression that git clients are generally better than svn clients. There are several tasks where I need CLI interface for svn while the same thing can be done in GUI in git.

Features:
The features I would add would be:

1 plot radius: an option to switch between 1 and 2 plot radius. I have 1 plot radius in my local copy and making it optional shouldn't be a major issue.

Construction feeder service: my local copy has a copy paste of some AI code from M:C (which the AI isn't using yet). What it does is it adds a new threshold to feeder service, one which the player can't modify. Instead it is a cache of the highest demand for the yield in question in the construction queue. Feeder service will then not remove something you need for construction.

Example:
You have a city, which has a threshold of 50 tools and you have feeder service and export on. Feeder service then turns on when there is less than 38 (75% of 50) and off when there is 50. That's how it is right now.
If the colony starts producing a train, it needs 100 tools. Import then turns on if there is less than 100 and turns off when there is 100. That way the colony will get enough tools even though you forgot to increase the threshold. Once the train is built the threshold returns to normal (50) unless you set it to build something new with a tool demand.

What do you guys say?
 
Right now there is quite a number of people, who have their own modified version of RaR and keeping them all up to date is time consuming and counter productive.

One major drawback with a single modmod is that everybody will end up with the same mod, which mean we would have to agree on designs were we have a history of not agreeing. I propose making new features/addons optional. That way features can be turned on and off to fit the taste of each person.
First of all I think a thread like this doesn't really belong into the RaR-subforum, but into "Creation&Customization", but that's just a minor aspect.

Second, you have already mentioned the main argument against your proposal:
different interpretations and ideas which (at least sometimes) are excluding each other or to a certain degree contradictionary.

Although it might be technically possible to create options which can be chosen at game start, I doubt that many people will be happy with a big package from which they have to pick "their" options each time.
 
Hm, I wanted to stay out of this discussion, but I am trying to give you some last well meant advices:

1. Forget about "Let's make everything optional".

A team needs to have one vision and not several.

So stop trying to discuss how to make 5 modmods within one project at the same time.
(Lot's of XML options, game options and compiler switches to create several DLLs.)

This will cause you only trouble.
More effort, more bugs, less quality.
(Especially analyzing bugs would get a nightmare.)

This is not going to work as you might imagine.
Spoiler :

e.g.
"2-Plot-City-Radius" has so many dependencies (Map Generation, Settlement Behaviour, ...) that the effort and risk of trying to implement "1-Plot-City-Radius" in the same mod, simply isn't worth it.

This would practically need to be something like a branch (with all modified files) of its own.
Then you are more or less back to creating several modmods instead of one again.


2. Keep it simple and straight.

Most modders you will be working with are not hardcore-programmers.
Don't do things like "Branching", "Compile Switches", "Scripting", ...

Also think about all the people that might want to take your work and do their private adjustments.
Most of them will not understand such concepts.

3. Stay focussed.

If a feature does not yet have nice graphics or good balancing or nice texts or translations or nice sounds and is not properly tested, then it is not done.
Starting the next fancy flashy DLL implementation and hoping that somebody else will eventually one day take care of these things will not result in a quality mod in the end.

A nice (mod)mod is made of much more than just code.
Graphics, balancing, texts, sounds, testing ... are all just as important for the whole.

------------

Summary:

If you want to be a team, then you need to think and work as a team. Discussions, Planning, Organization and Quality Control are essential.
Stop trying to avoid being a team by letting everybody just throw whatever he wants into your merged / common modmod.

Discuss your ideas, make a decision and implement that decision with care and quality.

If you are not able to do that, then you should not work as a team.
(I have seen how annoying team work can be if the team does not work well.)

------------

I really do hope though, that you will continue your discussions and find your common vision. :thumbsup:
(I also don't mind if such a discussion is lead in this thread, as long as the modmod discussion does not create massive amounts of other threads in the forum of the main mod.)
 
Surprisingly I know what I'm doing with this proposal and the idea is to make people show up with their modding ideas and see if it can work together. You may call that a common vision.

"2-Plot-City-Radius" has so many dependencies (Map Generation, Settlement Behaviour, ...) that the effort and risk of trying to implement "1-Plot-City-Radius" in the same mod, simply isn't worth it.
If it is that bad, then why is it working well in my local copy where I just changed a few lines in the DLL and 3-4 lines in python? The only XML changes are colony map zoom level and min distance between colonies.
Sure buildings like the windmill is more expensive now in the sense that building costs are unmodified and it applies to less plots, but overall it appears to be working quite well.

Somehow I'm not surprised that Ray is against it (I kind of expected that). What I find surprising is the complete lack of support here considering I had positive feedback in private messages. This whole idea is dead unless that support re-appears and provides some constructive inputs on what could be put together.
 
If it is that bad, then why is it working well in my local copy where I just changed a few lines in the DLL and 3-4 lines in python? The only XML changes are colony map zoom level and min distance between colonies.

Simply because you did not care about finetuning the rest of the balancing. :)
(Worker slots in Buildings, Profession Outputs, ...)

And what about Colopedia entries that explain the feature "Culture".
And what about agnat's idea of the Russian Civ Trait to expand Culture faster. (Which would be pretty useless with "1-Plot-City-Radius".)
And what about ...
And what about ...

You seem to always just think in DLL or Python logic and eventually the most basic crude XML settings.
I have tried to explain many times, that a quality mod is simply much more than that.

It is the small details that matter for quality.
And this you consistently ignore.

... but overall it appears to be working quite well.

Well, for me there is a huge difference in "quite well" and "perfectly matched".

But maybe your goal simply is not to create real quality.
Maybe it is enough for you if things simply work "quite well". :dunno:

Somehow I'm not surprised that Ray is against it (I kind of expected that).

I am not against your modmod at all.
I just tried to give you some well meant advices.

You may believe me or not, but if you simply end up throwing all together you will achieve the following:

1) You will be a lot faster of course, since discussing, finding agreements and taking care of details takes a lot of time.
2) You will create a bunch of low quality functionality that most players looking for quality in details will simply not enjoy.

It is your choice though.

I still do hope that most modders and players are aiming for more than that.
And I still do hope that you guys will find a common vision that is needed to create a real team. :thumbsup:
 
One major drawback with a single modmod is that everybody will end up with the same mod, which mean we would have to agree on designs were we have a history of not agreeing. I propose making new features/addons optional. That way features can be turned on and off to fit the taste of each person.

We have 3 ways to make features optional:
  • XML
  • game options
  • compiler flags
Setting the differences at compile time is faster, but it only works if everybody compiles their own DLL. I think this option should only be considered if we do run into performance problems.

I have a strong preference for Game Options. Ray and Bello were right in suggesting that players shouldn't have to worry about changing everything to their liking every time and having a common vision.

With game options, every one of them has a default value, and it is this value that we could see as the "official" one. That way, only those who really care about these options will use them, the rest will just ignore them. I don't see a problem there.


Name:
We should agree on a single name. I used RaRE (Religion and Revolutions Extended), but it died when more or less everything from it ended up in RaR 1.6. It sounds like a decent name for what is basically RaR with a number of optional extensions.

I'm okay with RaRE.:thumbsup:

Source:
We should put the source somewhere where everybody can reach it. I propose using sourceforge because it has unlimited storage space. They support both svn and git and I would prefer git because it is superior when it comes to stuff like branches, which could be very useful. Also since git stores a clone of what is on the server itself, you can pretty much do anything while being offline except for syncing commits. Svn needs an internet connection for more or less anything, including just reading the log. Even if you have an allways on connection, reading data from your own HD is way faster than reading from the svn server. Also it is my impression that git clients are generally better than svn clients. There are several tasks where I need CLI interface for svn while the same thing can be done in GUI in git.

I leave this up to you, as I have little experience with setting up an online source.

Copyright:
There are some copyrighted files in RaR (music). We should figure out what to do about those.

I think it is best if I look into that. I originally added that music, and I know where to find it to find out about copyright issues. I had been planning to do that anyway.:)

Features:
The features I would add would be:

1 plot radius: an option to switch between 1 and 2 plot radius. I have 1 plot radius in my local copy and making it optional shouldn't be a major issue.

I'm okay with that, although Ray was right about the trait I gave the Russians: that one will become a lot worse. I would suggest because of that that we leave the 2-plot city radius as the default choice.

Example:
You have a city, which has a threshold of 50 tools and you have feeder service and export on. Feeder service then turns on when there is less than 38 (75% of 50) and off when there is 50. That's how it is right now.
If the colony starts producing a train, it needs 100 tools. Import then turns on if there is less than 100 and turns off when there is 100. That way the colony will get enough tools even though you forgot to increase the threshold. Once the train is built the threshold returns to normal (50) unless you set it to build something new with a tool demand.

What do you guys say?

That would be an awesome new feature!:goodjob:

Somehow I'm not surprised that Ray is against it (I kind of expected that). What I find surprising is the complete lack of support here considering I had positive feedback in private messages. This whole idea is dead unless that support re-appears and provides some constructive inputs on what could be put together.

Well, I still really want this new project to start, don't worry. I just didn't have the time to respond to this thread immediately.

Anyway, about the organisation of the project: is it maybe a good idea if everyone who wants to participate gives a complete overview in this thread what he possibly could add?

I suggest that all potential team members then look into it, and give feedback as to what features he does not like.
We can then start off by adding all features everyone agrees about (and I still get the feeling we agree about most of them), and after that we can start discussions about the others, whether we will leave them out, make them optional, balance them differently, or add them nevertheless.

So here is again an overview of all changes in my modmod:

Spoiler :

CONTENTS:

New traits for European leaders
I have added two brand new civilization traits to this game for the Russians and the Swedish, and added four new leader traits. I also made modifications to several of the other traits.
The addition of four leader traits brings the total number of available leader traits to 16. As there are 16 playable leaders in the game, and each of them gets two leader traits, this means that every leader trait is used twice.

These are the six new traits:
Spoiler :
Agricultural (Swedish civilization trait)
  • +10% Food production in all settlements
  • -10% Food required for population growth
Imperialist (Russian civilization trait)
  • Free promotion: Homeland Guard I (+15% Combat Strength inside your Cultural Borders)
  • -25% Culture required for Territorial Expansion

Note: I've changed the civilization traits of the Swedish and the Russians because I disliked the original ones (Foresters and Hunters Tradition). I disliked them because these traits focused on very minor aspects of the game (lumber production and fur trade), in contrast with the other six civilization traits, which focus on major aspects like immigration or trade.
Because of this, I never felt inclined to pick either of these nations, as there was no clear strategy associated with them. These two new traits focus on larger aspects of the game: Population Growth and Territory.

Sophisticated
  • +25% production of Education in all settlements
  • +50% chance colonists learn specialisms through learning by doing
  • -50% cost of training specialists in schools
Capitalist
  • +25% Storage Capacity in all Settlements
  • +25% better results from bargaining with Natives
Agronomist
  • Pioneers work 50% faster
  • Improvements cost 50% less money to build
Militaristic
  • All units (siege units, transport units and ships) cost -25% Hammers, Tools, Cannons, Muskets and Blades to construct
These are the changes to existing traits:
Spoiler :
Great Admiral
  • 10% combat bonus now also applies to Privateers and Pirate Frigates
Undemanding
  • Food bonus no longer fixed at 2 for each settlement. It now scales with the bell-producing building that is present in the city (1 Food per Basecamp, 2 per Village Hall, etc.)

In assigning new traits to leaders, I've paid attention to three things:
  • Diversity: No two leaders may share more than one trait with one another.
  • Synergy: Traits preferably should work together to give a leader certain strong points, and as a result a unique gameplay experience.
  • Historical Correctness: The traits need to make sense when considering the historical background of a leader.
Here an overview of all leaders, and their associated traits:
Spoiler :
English: Tolerant
  • George Washington: Great General, Disciplined
  • William Penn: Libertarian, Undemanding
French: Cooperative
  • Louis de Frontenac: Expansive, Militaristic
  • Samuel de Champlain: Enterprising, Industrious
Spanish: Conquistador
  • Hernan Cortes: Expansive, Disciplined
  • Simon Bolivar: Determined, Great General
Dutch: Mercantile
  • Peter Stuyvesant: Administrative, Capitalist
  • Adriaen van der Donck: Charismatic, Sophisticated
Portuguese: Explorers
  • Martim Afonso de Sousa: Resourceful, Administrative
  • Mem de Sa: Great Admiral, Militaristic
Danish: Seafarers
  • Hans Egede: Enterprising, Sophisticated
  • Jens Munk: Great Admiral, Resourceful
Swedish: Agricultural
  • Johan Risingh: Industrious, Undemanding
  • Johan Printz: Charismatic, Agronomist
Russians: Imperialist
  • Ermak Timofeyevich: Determined, Agronomist
  • Alexandr Baranov: Libertarian, Capitalist
I've made changes to various nations starting units as well, to reflect their changed strengths:
Spoiler :
French: Jesuit Missionary instead of Hardy Pioneer
Portuguese: Seasoned Scout instead of Expert Fisherman
Danish: Expert Fisherman instead of Expert Farmer, Fluyt instead of Caravel
Swedish: Expert Farmer instead of Expert Lumberjack, Fluyt instead of Caravel
Russians: Hardy Pioneer instead of Expert Hunter

I've also made changes to the personalities of each leader, to give each of them a unique character.

New traits for Native leaders
I have added only one new trait for Natives (Patriarch), but made modifications to most of the others. These are the traits that have been changed:
Spoiler :
Patriarch (new trait)
  • +25% Gold at first European contact
  • -25% Cost of Native Land purchasing
Prosperous
  • Added: +25% production of Silver, Gems and Gold.
Farmers
  • Added: +2 Food production on all land tiles.
  • Added: Homeland Guard promotion for all units (+15% Strength inside Cultural Borders).
  • Removed: All other Food bonuses.
Nomadic (originally named Nomads)
  • Added: -15% Food required for Population Growth.
  • Changed: Close Combat promotion for all units instead of Fearless.
Hunters
  • Added: +100% Great General emergence rate inside Cultural Borders.
Fishermen (originally named Coastal Warriors)
  • Added: +2 Food production on all Water tiles.
  • Removed: +100% Great General emergence rate inside Cultural Borders.
Raiders
  • Added: -50% XP required for unit promotions.
Forestwarriors
  • Added: 50% Great General emergence.
  • Changed: Great General emergence rate inside Cultural Borders reduced to 50%.
Highlander (originally named Climber)
  • Added: +2 Food production on all Hills tiles (to allow these nations to build big cities in Hills and Mountains).
One thing I did not like about the original mod was the similarity between many native nations (in fact, some nations were almost exact copies of one another, like the Tarascans, Mixtecs, Zapotecs, Toromona and Aztecs).
I've tried to give each of the 30 different native nations a different "feel." To do this, I've made large changes to their personalities in terms of raiding behavior, gift-giving, tendency to feel threatened, willingness to declare war, etc.

This is to partly to ensure that no two native nations behave the same way, but also to spread aggressive and peaceful natives more evenly across the map. In the original mod, the southern and equatorial tribes are highly aggressive, while almost all North American tribes were quite peaceful. I've tried to balance that out a bit more.

The second way to create diversity is by assigning new traits to native leaders. I've made sure that no two tribes share exactly the same traits, and in addition to that, I've tried to spread the different traits evenly across the globe. These are the native leaders, with their new traits:
Spoiler :
Cunhambebe (Tupi): Farmers, Raiders, Trader
Agueybana (Arawak): Farmers, Fishermen, Patriarch
Montezuma (Aztec): Prosperous, Farmers, Patriarch
Huayna Capac (Inca): Prosperous, Highlander, Pupil
Mangas Coloradas (Apache): Nomadic, Raiders, Mentor
Sitting Bull (Sioux): Nomadic, Forestwarriors, Mentor
Logan (Iroquois): Farmers, Forestwarriors, Patriarch
Oconostota (Cherokee): Hunters, Forestwarriors, Trader
Tecun Uman (Maya): Prosperous, Fishermen, Mentor
Orkeke (Tehuelche): Nomadic, Hunters, Trader
Nunkui (Shuar): Raiders, Highlander, Mentor
Tuglawina (Inuit): Hunters, Fishermen, Pupil
Kondiaronk (Huron): Fishermen, Forestwarriors, Pupil
Cocijoeza(Zapotec): Prosperous, Forestwarriors, Mentor
Sepe Tiaraju (Guarani): Hunters, Forestwarriors, Pupil
Jaureybo (Carib): Fishermen, Raiders, Trader
Oppussoquionuske (Algonquian): Farmers, Hunters, Mentor
Narbona (Navajo): Nomadic, Highlander, Patriarch
Machipara (Machiparo): Nomadic, Fishermen, Patriarch
Serpent Quechquemitl (Mixtec): Prosperous, Raiders, Pupil
Quemuenchatocha (Muisca): Prosperous, Highlander, Mentor
Iron Jacket (Comanche): Nomadic, Raiders, Trader
Washakie (Shoshone): Nomadic, Hunters, Pupil
Tarano (Toromona): Forestwarriors, Highlander, Trader
Running Eagle (Blackfoot): Hunters, Raiders, Trader
Pine Leaf (Crow): Hunters, Highlander, Patriarch
Uracca (Guaymi): Fishermen, Highlander, Pupil
Erendira (Tarascan): Prosperous, Farmers, Trader
Aomagua (Omagua): Farmers, Fishermen, Pupil
Lautaro (Mapuche): Raiders, Forestwarriors, Patriarch

I've also tweaked the factors that determine your relationship with natives, as I disliked the way all natives instantly hated you just because of the number of colonies you owned, instead of the proximity of those colonies to their lands. The idea is to make the interaction with natives just as challenging, but more interesting and realistic:
Spoiler :
  • The attitude penalty that results from the total amount of colonies you have has been greatly reduced.
  • The attitude penalty that results from large colonies being located near native villages has been greatly increased.
  • Trading now also slightly affects how much of a threat natives perceive you to be.
  • If the perceived threat ("Your way of life is threatening to ours") is reduced to zero, it can become an attitude bonus ("Your presence is a boon to our way of life").
  • The attitude penalty for declining native trade offers has been removed.

Founding Fathers
I've made some big changes to the founding fathers. Mostly, I tried to make each founding father appear at the point of the game where he would make sense (so no Valuable Wood-giving FFs in the endgame). I've also increased the number of units provided by FFs in the late game.

Jose de San Martin, who is not included yet in the main mod, is included in this Modmod as well.

New Promotions
I've added four new promotions to the game:
  • Homeland Guard I (+15% Strength inside Cultural Borders)
  • Homeland Guard II (+25% Strength inside Cultural Borders)
  • Homeland Guard III (+35% Strength inside Cultural Borders, requires Great General)
  • Sea Explorer II (Better results from Shipwrecks, requires Sea Explorer I)
The purpose of the Homeland Guard promotions is to make Borders matter more, which especially benefits the Russians. The Sea Explorer promotion serves to turn Sloops (or other vessels) into naval equivalents of Seasoned Scouts.

Schmiddie's changes on railroads
As I didn't like the inclusion of trains into this historical period, I've also included the changes Schmiddie made to this in his modmod.
  • Trains are replaced by Carriages (which I renamed Convoys)
  • Train Stations are replaced by Waystations
  • Railroads and Plastered Roads are replaced by Plastered Country Roads and Country Roads respectively

Minor changes
In addition to the changes mentioned above, I've also made many minor alterations:
Spoiler :
- Greatly expanded city lists, and corrected some historical errors in city lists (most notably the Blackfoot).
- Waystations (formerly Train Stations) now require a City Hall instead of a Town Hall.
- The requirements in Sailcloth, Rope, Tools, Cannons and Blades have been changed both for ships and for land transport units.
- Slaves and Converted Natives now also get a production bonus for Stone.
- Dragoons get the Leadership 2 promotion for free (as it was in previous versions of the mod).
- Mounted Braves and Armed Mounted Braves get the Dragoon promotion (higher withdrawal change, attack bonus vs Cannon Regiment).
- Expert Farmers get a 100% bonus for Barley instead of +3.
- Settler Militias get a +25% Combat bonus inside their Cultural Borders instead of a 25% City Defense bonus.
- The combat bonus of conquistadores vs Native Mercs has been increased.
- Razing native villages results in more treasure (to make a conquistador strategy more lucrative)
- Cocoa plantations can now be built on hill tiles with bananas or coconuts (so the food yield from such tiles can be increased).


In addition to that, I've been experimenting a little with graphics over the past week, and I came up with this new citystyle for several North American natives (a very simple reskin of the existing one):

Spoiler :


And new backgrounds for some native leaders:

Nunkui:
Spoiler :



Tarano:
Spoiler :


Jaureybo:
Spoiler :

 

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We can then start off by adding all features everyone agrees about (and I still get the feeling we agree about most of them), ...

Very reasonable approach to get started. :thumbsup:
You should consider then to make that version your first public release.

... and after that we can start discussions about the others, whether we will leave them out, make them optional, balance them differently, or add them nevertheless.

Sounds reasonable as well. :thumbsup:
Just don't end up trying to develop 5 modmods at once within the same project.

Good luck guys and enjoy your modding. :)
 
This whole idea is dead unless that support re-appears and provides some constructive inputs on what could be put together.
I am for making the 1-city radius optional. However, we need to take in considerations like health (made more\less obsolete), culture (made obsolete), balance w.r.t REF.(optional since a player who opts for this knows he's going to have a harder time)

Other than that, I have reservations with merging many mod-mods using switches. It will be hard from a future development and debugging perspective unless the code is extremely decoupled(i.e keeping your logic not tied into the original version) from the original. I'm not saying it can't be done, but modders will have to design very well. Decoupling is only for c++ and python. Regarding xml mods, you might even have to design an architecture that allows for dynamic injection of values for XML files to do this cleanly. (where you will have base template xml files that you will transform on adding\removing modmods) Also, an API will then have to be written that will specify what the xml target is, what values are to be injected\removed in which place (probably using an xpath string to specify) and all your mod changes will be given only as "transform files" that will be read and injected by the API. This API will also have to handle conflicts between various mods. This would take a bit of work initially, but the payoffs will be good if you are planning on toggling many mods. Of course, the alternative is to simply not do it.

P.S
Actually, nvm what I said about designing in a decoupled manner , if you guys are going for an extended version based only on the current version and if you're not going to keep it upto date with future R&R releases. In that case it's totally fine to go crazy with your coding, as long as you get it working and let that be the final extended version :)
 
It's been a few days, and I'm wondering if there are still people interested in working together on a larger modmod. As Nightingale said earlier, I got the impression from PMs that several people were, but I'm not seeing them here...:dunno:
 
It's been a few days, and I'm wondering if there are still people interested in working together on a larger modmod. As Nightingale said earlier, I got the impression from PMs that several people were, but I'm not seeing them here...:dunno:

I don't think the larger modmod (which then actually would be a new mod, as far as I see it) is the problem, but the proposed inclusion of different modmods (with competing functionalities) into a "big package".

Let's create an example:
In RaR, we now have the 2plot city radius. Now one modmod shall turn that back to 1 plot, and another idea would be to even extend it to 3 plots.
This will require the respective coding (which I assume to be minor), the maintaining of the screens (which might become a bit more complicated - I am a total noob in Python) and finally quite some new balancing. This new balancing then might influence the AI, too. And as many values are stored in XML files, this might mean the need of introducing modular XML files.

Now, will the fan of the 1plot city radius be very eager to touch all these different areas? After all, he only has to revert the current settings to the vanilla state.
And will the fan of the 3plot idea be willing to touch all this? He will be busy with the balancing parts and the screens, already.

Actually, I think combined efforts of modders would make more sense in the area of the AI - as it is in a terrible state, anyway.
That would be something from which all of us might gain a profit.
 
This will require the respective coding (which I assume to be minor), the maintaining of the screens (which might become a bit more complicated - I am a total noob in Python) and finally quite some new balancing. This new balancing then might influence the AI, too. And as many values are stored in XML files, this might mean the need of introducing modular XML files.
Python is easy. I have a modified python file, which sets up the colony screen to any radius. All it needs is knowing the diameter of the catchment area (3 or 5) and the idea is that python should ask the DLL for this number. That way the same python file works for all cases. I haven't tested it with 3 plot radius, but I think it will work. However considering how small two plot radius already makes the plots, 3 would really be tiny.

I have both versions for the DLL right now. All it needs is setup, which can be changed at runtime instead of compiletime. 3 plot radius would be quite some work and I fear it would be rather slow as well. The AI would have to keep track of 48 land plots in a single colony to figure out what to do with each unit in the city.

I thought about balance and XML settings. Changing the amount of plots in a colony heavily affects balance and gameplay. I think the greatest issue here would actually be that people assume the game would have to scale to get the very same balance as 2 plots. The balanced with unmodified XML is actually decent and to play. There are a few overpowered buildings (6 statemen etc). If we add a new number of working slots to XML, then we can assign for both 1 and 2 plot radius, which in most cases would be the same. If we cache the result in CvBuildingInfo, then we will have 0 performance impact from using two different numbers. Most buildings will not need modifications to this, but it would be nice to have a clean way to handle the few, which could benefit from it.

Having said all this, I feel the whole concept of combining modmods is going downhill fast. The main reason is the lack of people posting what they would like to contribute with. Without a decent list of features, which would make sense to combine, the end result will be me with a 1 plot radius mod, which is precisely what I don't want to do.

Actually, I think combined efforts of modders would make more sense in the area of the AI - as it is in a terrible state, anyway.
That would be something from which all of us might gain a profit.
I too would like an improved AI. However improving the AI is quite unspecific. You might as well have said "I want to make the game better". The main question is how and who have the coding skills to do it? Coding the AI is quite hard.

I would like the AI not to cut down all forests, but I haven't figured out even where to start.
 
It would be nice if someone could take up the sea explorer navigation to cover 'wrecks'.
If no one is volunteering within 2 days, I will add it to my "to-do" list (on top of 3 port screen automation and something else i promised raystuttgart that I will take up, but i don't remember right now :D)
 
It would be nice if someone could take up the sea explorer navigation to cover 'wrecks'.
If no one is volunteering within 2 days, I will add it to my "to-do" list (on top of 3 port screen automation and something else i promised raystuttgart that I will take up, but i don't remember right now :D)

In my modmod, I have added such a promotion. We can just take it from there.
 
I thought about balance and XML settings. Changing the amount of plots in a colony heavily affects balance and gameplay. I think the greatest issue here would actually be that people assume the game would have to scale to get the very same balance as 2 plots. The balanced with unmodified XML is actually decent and to play. There are a few overpowered buildings (6 statemen etc). If we add a new number of working slots to XML, then we can assign for both 1 and 2 plot radius, which in most cases would be the same. If we cache the result in CvBuildingInfo, then we will have 0 performance impact from using two different numbers. Most buildings will not need modifications to this, but it would be nice to have a clean way to handle the few, which could benefit from it.

For me, the important things about this feature are:
1. It should not negatively impact performance (and as you say, it won't).
2. It should be easy for the players to switch between both options (which is why I would like to see it as a game option, if that is possible)
3. If this means that we need to do much XML coding because we need specific tags for the 1 and 2 plot city radius, then someone must be willing to do all that work.

I personally will not use it, as I'm happy with the 2-plot radius, but as long as it doesn't negatively impact other features of the game, I have no problems with it.

Having said all this, I feel the whole concept of combining modmods is going downhill fast. The main reason is the lack of people posting what they would like to contribute with. Without a decent list of features, which would make sense to combine, the end result will be me with a 1 plot radius mod, which is precisely what I don't want to do.

I agree with this. It would be nice if the people who have made modmods over the last weeks:
1. Make known whether or not they are interested in participating.
2. If they are, what features they can add, and what they want to add in the future.

We just need some direction if we want to do this, and currently, I currently don't even know who wants to help with this, let alone the things they would add.:dunno:

I would like the AI not to cut down all forests, but I haven't figured out even where to start.

This has been annoying me for a very long time as well, so I suggest we give it high priority.
I don't remember this from the vanilla version or simpler mods. Maybe it has something to do with all the yields that have been added? I've noticed that forests get cut down more often than jungles (where more yields can be harvested), and both of these are more often left standing on Marsh (which provides only sugar, unlike grassland which provides five different yields).
 
I too would like an improved AI. However improving the AI is quite unspecific. You might as well have said "I want to make the game better". The main question is how and who have the coding skills to do it? Coding the AI is quite hard.

I would like the AI not to cut down all forests, but I haven't figured out even where to start.

Good to know about these things, but actually the 3plot city radius was just an example without any real background. :)

I have created a new thread in the Creation&Customization section, as the further discussion about this topic would not be RaR-specific anymore, as I think.
 
In my modmod, I have added such a promotion. We can just take it from there.

I'm a bit confused. Does your mod-mod change the AI or is it related to just better yields from exploring wrecks? (that's what it seems to indicate).
Or do you mean you are willing to work on the AI since you're familiar with the code?
 
I'm a bit confused. Does your mod-mod change the AI or is it related to just better yields from exploring wrecks? (that's what it seems to indicate).
Or do you mean you are willing to work on the AI since you're familiar with the code?

I misread your post, I thought you were talking about the sea explorer promotion. I'm not familiar with the code for the AI.
 
I was thinking about the whole concept of "combining mod-mods" into a toggle-able form and wonder if it is just best if the active modders simply create and maintain a mod-mod that is upto their taste?
Surely, if 3 or 4 people have 3-4 versions (as is being done) and update their mod-mod to the latest version, it is good enough for most people to pick instead of creating one 'super-mod' that has to be customized?

With that said, agnat86 can I add some features from your mod-mod into my mod-mod? (I would like to incorporate some of the 'traits' features and FF changes at some point)
 
I was thinking about the whole concept of "combining mod-mods" into a toggle-able form and wonder if it is just best if the active modders simply create and maintain a mod-mod that is upto their taste?
The problem with multiple, yet nearly identical mods is that quite a lot of code would make sense to add to all (like bugfixes). Moving code from one mod to another is time consuming and prone to introduce new bugs. The result is mods, which would benefit from updates in other mods, yet they don't have those updates because it is too much work to move them.
 
I was thinking about the whole concept of "combining mod-mods" into a toggle-able form and wonder if it is just best if the active modders simply create and maintain a mod-mod that is upto their taste?
Surely, if 3 or 4 people have 3-4 versions (as is being done) and update their mod-mod to the latest version, it is good enough for most people to pick instead of creating one 'super-mod' that has to be customized?

Well, it would save a LOT of work if we just put together all things we can agree about.
Because currently, when anyone adds a feature, everyone else who wants it needs to merge it with his or her own modmod, which is time-consuming. Last week, I've spent much of my modding time sorting out changes in XML files in TortoiseMerge. I think I've added my own work about twenty times now, which wouldn't have been necessary if everyone had just committed their work to a central project.

That's why I would like to have such a project. People can then put the few things (because I think we agree about most things) we do not agree about into their own modmods. It would save all of us a lot of time.

Also, a central mod would have much more exposure to potential players. If I were to come to these forums, and I saw five different personal mods, would I spend my time comparing the features in each of them, or try them all out? I don't think so. I would be much more inclined to try out a larger modmod that combines the features.

With that said, agnat86 can I add some features from your mod-mod into my mod-mod? (I would like to incorporate some of the 'traits' features and FF changes at some point)

Of course, go ahead!
But as I said, if we had a central project, you would have more time today you could spend on making new things, instead of adding mine.:)
 
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