Why is Sabathiel on Erebus?

I'm just a little confused as to how Sabathiel can exist in the world without breaking the Compact. I haven't seen any major stories about him falling like Cassiel, Basium, and Sphener, but surely an angel wouldn't be allowed to lead the Bannor as Sabathiel does.

He isn't on Erebus.






Sabathiel entered Hell to lead the Bannor out of it. He lead them to a portal through which they could return to creation, but he did not accompany them through it. After returning to Erebus, the Bannor constructed the Halls of Sabathiel. However, they did not create the holy of holies of this temple; it does not exist in Erebus, but rather in a portion of Junil's Heaven, or some sort of plane in between. It is not clear whether the Hight Priests of the Order themselves actually leave creation in order to communicate wiht Sabathiel, or if everything that goes on in the inner sanctum is actually a vision.

Sabathiel cannot really control the Bannor, he can only give them orders which they may or may not choose to follow. His priests are not perfect, and have been known to misinterpret, or even willfully distort, his commands. Eventually, the Order was taken over by wicked priests acting in his name, but directly against his will. Since they were the only ones legally allowed to inter the inner chambers of the Halls of Sabathiel, and since Sabathiel is bound not to interfere directly, know one on the outside knew of their corruption, or of exactly when they turned away from their faith. Still, it is clear that they were quite corrupt by the time they were hunting down all true followers of Junil, including Valin.


Also keep in mind that the Compact doesn't forbid all interference in creation, only direct action. The Gods are free to fight through mortal servants (much to Cassiel's chagrin), and the power they are able to exercise in Erebus is proportional to the faith of their believers. Just as Bhall was able to rain down fire from heaven for no good reason when she fell (without violating the compact--although I imagine that her subsequent battle against her good archangel, Brigit, might have been a violation), Junil does have some freedom to act. It has been stated that 300 years into the Age of Rebirth, The Bannor Empire was the largest in the world and the Order religion was the most widespread; thus, Junil has more freedom to act than any of the gods (except those that just ignore the compact, I guess).

Yeah the Bannor actually have quite an interesting lore don't they, considering some people think they're bland. I think the bannor priests actually consider Sabathiel to be more of a myth, or an idea as opposed to an actual being. The great majority of people actually believe he's sitting in some chamber in the temple giving out orders though. The priests rule based on what they think is right but they can really do whatever they like in the name of Sabathiel. That's what basically leads to all the corruption.

The bannor have an interesting RP synergy with the Council of Esus IMO, the priests rule by deceiving the peasants that they are being ruled by an angel, and obviosuly angels know whats right, don't they?

MagisterCultuum said:

Sabathiel entered Hell to lead the Bannor out of it. He lead them to a portal through which they could return to creation, but he did not accompany them through it.

Click to expand...

If you look at Capria's pedia entry, it seems to say that he does go through the portal to creation - Donal stayed behind in order that sabathiel could stay with the Bannor.

Yeah, it does seem that way, but I'm pretty sure Kael explained it differently. I think he said that when Sabathiel went through the portal he actually went bask to Junil's Heaven instead of creation. Maybe he was allowed to enter creation, but only if he didn't actually do anything there? I don't know. I tempted to say that an inconsistency caused by having multiple writers.

Well, that's probably most of it (though of course nothing goes in without Kael's oversight).
But we can say that Sabathiel had to use the portal or some other contrivence to leave Agares/Bhall's vault (have to play by the ruling god's rules). He left the portal and was able to redirect himself before reaching Erebus back to "good heaven".

Magister is dead on. Sabathiel has never been in creation.

All of these mean that Sabathiel as Bannor leader may be more or less correct only if Bannor follow Order or no state religion (hardly).

it-ogo said:

All of these mean that Sabathiel as Bannor leader may be more or less correct only if Bannor follow Order or no state religion (hardly).

Click to expand...

I always assumed that in the good cases Sabathiel was the leader and in the bad it was the Bannor corrupt priests acting like they were getting their edicts from Sabathiel. Otherwise you could also assume that Sabathiel had in fact turned evil.

Aha. Sabathiel is not a deity but a nice guy, proved to be the bigest friend of Bannor people and if he want to go back to Hell forever we'll join him. Let him make his orders no matter from Heaven, Hell, Abyss, Forest, Empyrei (whatever that mean), and even if he'll deceive us we'll learn his lesson and try to be perfect in following the template. Grateful nation.

it-ogo said:

Aha. Sabathiel is not a deity but a nice guy, proved to be the bigest friend of Bannor people and if he want to go back to Hell forever we'll join him. Let him make his orders no matter from Heaven, Hell, Abyss, Forest, Empyrei (whatever that mean), and even if he'll deceive us we'll learn his lesson and try to be perfect in following the template. Grateful nation.

Click to expand...

Empyrei is incorrect. The religion seems to be named after the Empyrean (latin empyreus... the word has greek origins though, and means roughly "in fire" or something along those lines) which is the highest of the seven heavens in medieval cosmology. The Empyrean was not only the dwelling place of God (in Dante's Paradiso), but the heaven of fire and light... so its a rather fitting name for a Solar religion.

gibbon_malus said:

Empyrei is incorrect. The religion seems to be named after the Empyrean (latin empyreus... the word has greek origins though, and means roughly "in fire" or something along those lines) which is the highest of the seven heavens in medieval cosmology. The Empyrean was not only the dwelling place of God (in Dante's Paradiso), but the heaven of fire and light... so its a rather fitting name for a Solar religion.

Click to expand...

I know, em pyros = "in fire" in ancient greek. Sorry for misgreek. And there is no plural in latin, then sorry for mislatin. But that was very-very theoretical sphere and now in my language there is an idiom "wander in empyrei" - (sorry for misenglish - this is transliteration) that mean dreaming on something far from reality.

Malakim worship very concrete desert sun. You know, if people of hot country worship sun, usually it is a very cruel religion, because sun is cruel in a hot desert. If they worship water (river, oasis), that would expected to be a more-less kind religion.

Sorry for offtopic.

"misgreek" is such a cute word

"wander in empyrei" would match the English phrase "head in the clouds"

Sabathiel was in hell battling the demons while the people of Bannor were leaving hell. Donal Lugh couldn't leaven because the gate would close but he eventually found another portal opened by the demons.