Immortal slavers!

I like attacking izzy tough I would try to keep the war as short as possible, probabely get peace just after we get madrid, in order to keep our techrate afloat. Can we mix the oracle in our jag-rush-plan? If it does, we should probabely take CoL to secure the eco with altars, and for uber-whipping. We can trade it around for maths/construction/alphabet. Pericles clearly is next on the list.

If we rush Izzy we must expect 1) lots of barb activity and 2) pericles spamming cities left right and center. OTOH this means his defenders will be spread and thinner in most cities. Let's have him clear that jungle for us.

We need to get a WB out for scouting soonish... Probabely we'll be lucky and find phants on some small island down south

IW we'll need soon anyway for chopping, but also for jags. They can gather some xp from slaying barbs. Then it should probabely be the wheel (?)
If we decide to have a shot at the oracle (while building jags ), which fits in nicely as we also start with mysticism, we get a free tech (CoL is best imo), and can get the big techs. This means we can backfill cheap techs like agri, pottery (granaries), sailing (trade routes) and (in this game here) not-so-important writing [I usually have writing as a very high priority tech, but we won't have time to build it and we'll be working hills mostly, and the specs slots coming with CS should do].

Hi team ,

to be honnest, I doubt we can take Izzy down with only one city producing jags... but then as more challenging, it is also more exciting...

@Mysty: Taking COL of the Oracle seems hard while playing the rush... If we go for the Oracle, I think Rusten's plans are safer, taking alpha, expanding to 3 cities, then trading our way to cats and attacking...

Frankly I like both options, and I wouldn't mind a lose... it just that it would suck to trash such a good starting location...
I think Rusten, Shyuhe, and Jet like the pure jag rush; Paulus and Mysty are for more cautious approach (cats)... me, indecisive...

The problem is we need to choose now as i see it difficult to switch from one plan to another...

We do need to choose now.

Seeing the map, I think the Great Lighthouse is actually a legit possibility. I would only do it if I thought we could settle by the corn and hold on to the corn tile, which I'm not sure about. Then we would have 4 coastal cities, which should have good trade routes because it's Pangaea, and use them to whip units for a catapult war against Pericles, who appears to have more coastal cities. The strategy is kind of slow, though.

Reason for oracle (and COL) is simple: we can use a tech boost, secure the eco and remain competitive in the lib race. Also we can't be building jags non-stop as they cost maintenance, so why not slot in a cheap wonder?

As I said, I wouldn't fight izzy long, mostly secure the holy city (and get the GP from oracle..) and pillage a few cottages. I doubt it's that hard getting out 5-6 jags in time, and I doubt we need more if we have direct access to madrid.

Keep in mind, rax won't take long to build with aggressive and we have plenty of forests to chop so production shouldn't be a big problem...

edit: I wouldn't shoot for the GLH on pangaea. Firstly because there will be (next to) no intercontinental trade routes, second, because there won't be many coastal cities and thirdly because pangaea maps tend to provoke lots of wars so building units is a good idea...

I think hammers for the oracle are better spent on jags. 5-6 will probably not be enough to capture Madrid if it's on a hill, as she's going to have 40-60% culture by the time we get to her. I'd look more at 7-8. They're basically the same as axes against archers.

At least in the short-term, we're teching IW -- wheel, which is going to take about 30 turns. If we were to tech up to priesthood after that, it's going to take another 5-10 turns at which point we would finally be able to start building the oracle. And if we burn our forests on jags, there won't be much left to chop for the oracle.

Similar thoughts on the GLH. If we're going to rush, the hammers are best concentrated on units. We can fix our economy once we capture Madrid. If we're not going to rush, I would build setters and workers. I'm not a huge fan of the GLH on pangaea maps.

Ok we seem a bit confused... this is how I see things:

1) We don't build troops, settle few cities and build the oracle for alpha (trading for IW, math), then tech construction, then war...

2) We go directly IW -> TW and attack.

In both case I think 6 jags is really not enough... 3 archers with 40%, one or two bad roll and the game is lost...

I think the Oracle plan is safer... (it's unlikely one of our neighbours will attack us in the meantime)

This is more what I meant (tough I must admit I wasn't clear at all); I'd build the oracle and trade for IW, maths, construction, etc (while choking iz/pericles) or tech IW and attack ASAP (AKA standard rush).

RRRaskolnikov said:

I think Rusten, Shyuhe, and Jet like the pure jag rush; Paulus and Mysty are for more cautious approach (cats)... me, indecisive...

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I'm also in the uncertain camp.

to be honnest, I doubt we can take Izzy down with only one city producing jags

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City count doesn't matter much for these kind of rushes. What matters is how many forests you have and we have plenty. Chopping and 1 or 2 2-pop whips gets you a large amount of jags very quickly. I'd guess we're looking at 1 per turn from the turn we research IW (disregarding the first 2-pop whip).

mystyfly said:

Also we can't be building jags non-stop as they cost maintenance, so why not slot in a cheap wonder?

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Gold+clam+clam+palace = 19 commerce. We can afford all the troops we need.

mystyfly said:

I like attacking izzy tough I would try to keep the war as short as possible, probabely get peace just after we get madrid, in order to keep our techrate afloat. Can we mix the oracle in our jag-rush-plan? If it does, we should probabely take CoL to secure the eco with altars, and for uber-whipping. We can trade it around for maths/construction/alphabet. Pericles clearly is next on the list.

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If we attack her we should aim to destroy her--nothing less. You can't expect to trade for construction--that's almost impossible (at least if you want to use it for something).

Don't see the need for an early wb on pangea and I think it's a bad idea to both jag rush and aim to get wonders. Chances are you'll end up with neither goal achieved.

RRRaskolnikov said:

In both case I think 6 jags is really not enough... 3 archers with 40%, one or two bad roll and the game is lost...

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Agreed.

If we are to rush I'd want at least 12 jags. With all these forests and gold we can aim for more than that as well -- possibly as much as 20.

20 jags? I don't think I've even seen the real Monty field that many. If we're going for total annihilation, then we may end up needing ~20 by the time the war is over.

Considering jag rushing is a big gamble, I'm ok with passing on it if the rest of the team is uncomfortable. It's a rare opportunity though and I'd like to give it a try if possible.

shyuhe said:

It's a rare opportunity though and I'd like to give it a try if possible.

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So be it

Seems the jag rush wins out. It's not 'that' risky if we get 12+ jags anyway. I'll play my turns tonight.

And we're way ahead in research from a standard palace + cottage start. Looking forward to seeing some

Me too

Not much action for me as the host didn't want me to play more than 20 turns.
I stopped after 19 as it felt natural both regarding gameplay and date. Things have started rolling though.

We meet Toku to the far east after our scout successfully repels the attacking bear.



Wow! I usually lose these battles! I pretty much assume the unit is dead before combat takes place
Toku is annoyed towards Izzy and Pericles.

We meet de Gaulle on turn 36.


Hammurabi seems to have great land. I don't think we'll be able to rush both civs (especially due to the UU), but we should look into "settling" those flood plains of his in the future.



We get IW as early as turn 42--very nice. I didn't even have time to get a second worker to chop. I guess 12-15 jags is more reasonable than 20 now.

Speaking of jaguars; good thing they don't require metal--the iron isn't comfortably placed.



I prepare for a 2-pop whip on the same turn. Jaguars are only 35 hammers so it can be difficult on normal speed. The overflow will mess things up as you need less than 5 hammers invested. I whip the jaguar but leave it in queue and finish the barracks. It would be nice if you could fit in another 2-pop whip, but it won't be that easy (could also consider whipping a worker).



The whip put us at size 2 with 12 food to go, but with the clams we're getting 6 food per turn so we regrew quickly.

Our scout is currently healing after killing an injured barbarian warrior. I suggest you not go further north though--there will just be more barbarians. It's probably better to hug the AI borders (Izzy). We'll get valuable intel and the risk of losing our scout is decreased.

Overview:



I've pre-chopped 5 forests to 1 turn (marked) and started on the sixth. You can cash in on these when it suits you, but make sure to never get more than 70 production in the city. That would turn all the hammers above 70 into gold. You probably know this, but mentioning it just in case.


shyuhe -> up!
(not sure who's on deck).

I don't even think we can get more than 70 hammers in a turn unless we double chop and whip in a turn. I'll see what I can do to put an army together. Hopefully Izzy will tech writing so we can scout her lands. Got it.

By the way, is it better to slave/chop an army or use grassland mines? I think I need to do some math on that.

shyuhe said:

By the way, is it better to slave/chop an army or use grassland mines? I think I need to do some math on that.

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Long term the hill might win (without a granary)--but we want the units very soon and this was the best opportunity for a 2-pop whip. I think I'd do another 2-pop whip if possible. 60 hammers right away beats 80 in the horizon when you want to rush (number not accurate, just random).

@Shyuhe: without granary, mines are better than whip I guess (and the opposite is true at low size, I have numbers on a spreadsheet if you want), but anyway the worker will be busy chopping...

@Rusten: nice... I haven't look a the save (and will do tomorrow as I need to sleep ), but things look great (well except the crappy neighbours, including DG and Toku).

I think we should do 10 turns set but perhaps it's too short in the early game? What do you think?

Roster:

Shyuhe -> up!
Jet -> on deck!

Cheers

Looking nice.

I'd say chopping > whipping > mines (only my gut-feeling). Chopping is more effective if used early, and we don't have enought hammer potential from these few hills.

What are our tech goals? I'd say writing as we can use some GS, followed by... aest? Teching maths is an option tough we can't expect to trade it around and get anything useful. Aest is my suggestion as we can trade for ABC and probabely maths, tough we won't get construction (as the AI never trades it). We'll probabely also be able to trade around aest for stuff like currency or calendar. COL would be my tech preference after construction.

Pottery -> writing -> aesthetics sounds good... we will want to trade for sailing, IW, math and alpha (could grab that in peace treaty though) at least. Then we could research construction for more cat action or something like COL -> construction ( but I am afraid this close the window for cats)...

Another path is early monarchy, after writing...

Cheers

Mr. Captain said:

Pottery -> writing -> aesthetics sounds good... we will want to trade for sailing, IW, math and alpha (could grab that in peace treaty though) at least. Then we could research construction for more cat action or something like COL -> construction ( but I am afraid this close the window for cats)...

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I wouldn't tech CoL before construction as CoL already takes ages to research often...