The free towers from CN stack with the ones already built .. Like the free Mosque from "Mosque of Djenne" stacks with a previously built Mosque granted by religion ...
crazyeye: bugs 
bugs )
Most overrated World Wonder?
- Thread starter fallout3dc
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The free towers from CN stack with the ones already built .. Like the free Mosque from "Mosque of Djenne" stacks with a previously built Mosque granted by religion ...
crazyeye: bugs bugs )I like the Hanging Gardens and don't support the arguments against it. Nothing prevents you from also running a food cargo ship to the city with the Hanging Gardens. The free Garden is great, not only for a city that may not otherwise be able to have a garden, but for cities that could build one later too.
The free garden is 120 hammers and one gold maintenance, only available in medieval era at theology. Hanging gardens is 250 hammers and available at mathematics. Even if you devalue the later hammers for the Garden, they're still worth something. There's also an extra culture per turn on HG, which expands that city's borders earlier if nothing else.
Hubble I still dislike (in-game; IRL I love it). That the AI lets you have it is the AI being dumb. If it was at all smart it would be taking it first and shutting you out by 15 turns. With 'good play' by the leader it should never be a catching up tool, just securing a lead for a winner.
The free garden is 120 hammers and one gold maintenance, only available in medieval era at theology. Hanging gardens is 250 hammers and available at mathematics. Even if you devalue the later hammers for the Garden, they're still worth something. There's also an extra culture per turn on HG, which expands that city's borders earlier if nothing else.
Hubble I still dislike (in-game; IRL I love it). That the AI lets you have it is the AI being dumb. If it was at all smart it would be taking it first and shutting you out by 15 turns. With 'good play' by the leader it should never be a catching up tool, just securing a lead for a winner.
darkpigraph
Chieftain
The free towers from CN stack with the ones already built .. Like the free Mosque from "Mosque of Djenne" stacks with a previously built Mosque granted by religion ...
This sounds very odd to me - can anyone confirm this?
The free towers from CN stack with the ones already built .. Like the free Mosque from "Mosque of Djenne" stacks with a previously built Mosque granted by religion ...
To the best of my knowledge this is incorrect - the game removes the original broadcast towers and replaces them with freebies.
It'd save some gold on Maintenance.
It isn't just that Petra gives a free caravan, it gives an additional route. Meaning you can run another internal food route, maybe to another city other than your capital. If you run 4 cities, it takes 9 trade routes to have a food caravan running to all of them, which is exactly the max you end up with at the end of the game if you get Petra. So it is an additional food route, and if that additional route is a cargo ship, it is more than Hanging Gardens gives. You also get additional culture and of course food and hammers on every desert tile. If Petra is in play, it is better than Hanging Gardens. Hanging Gardens is more often used, however, as it doesn't require a desert.
While I won't say HG sucks, it is pretty good, but I rarely try for it, as the return on the investment (at least on Immortal and Deity) is not worth the difficulty in getting it.
sonicandfffan
Warlord
Looking at the ratings here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=505273
It has to be Uffizi/Lourve - I never build theme, even in culture games. They take too many hammers and don't provide enough benefit
It has to be Uffizi/Lourve - I never build theme, even in culture games. They take too many hammers and don't provide enough benefit
Tempestangel
Chieftain
The Great Library is certainly the most overrated in my opinion, the free technology is nice, hell the science is nice, but I would perfer to get my library out of the way earlier so I can nab an NC quicker.
But I mean it is so bloody annoying when people ragequit because they lost that wonder, it is an early game wonder, so it normally ends with 2-3 people quitting out of rage for losing it.
But I mean it is so bloody annoying when people ragequit because they lost that wonder, it is an early game wonder, so it normally ends with 2-3 people quitting out of rage for losing it.
PhilBowles
Deity
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On the contrary, I've argued very strongly in favour of Petra on the Wonder threads, and it should be higher both than it was in that list and than Hubble.
My point is that what makes it good is not that it's a 'win the game' Wonder. Often it isn't. You have a view of what Wonders are for that seems excessively parochial. Some Wonders help with victory, others help with short-term game position, some help with both. Petra does help with both, but by far its greatest value is its importance for improving the value of one city. Hubble is essentially worthless as anything but a win condition.
I'm well aware what Petra does. I'm also well aware that, when the Wonder is available, hill tiles away from rivers produce exactly 0 food without Petra. Hence my contesting your claim that your Petra cities will mostly be working tiles that produce more than 3 food - aside from sites with lots of flood plains and oases, this just doesn't happen, and Petra is most valuable in sites with lots of hill tiles.
And no, there isn't any way a caravan is worth a free 6 food bonus even ignoring (as you seem to throughout) the extra National Epic that HG provides. You will eventually reach a game stage where a caravan can supply 6 food, but that's much later, uses a trade route, and is vulnerable to attack. And also doesn't come with an attached National Epic. If you replace the caravan with a cargo ship, you're replacing your free caravan with a unit that costs a third as much as the HG itself, and still has all the above vulnerabilities in addition to very exacting geographical requirements (you need two cities on the coast, and of these the capital also has to have substantial amounts of desert unless you manage to pull off Petra in a secondary city).
Nor is 6 free food in any way equivalent to working 6 tiles for 1 extra food apiece. You seem to be drastically undervaluing the importance of food as a resource, especially in the early game, nor do you seem to appreciate that 6 food early is not equivalent to 6 food when you have Civil Service and enough pop in the city to gain a surplus to match the HG's output. And that's ignoring the fact that - as discussed - Petra cities are most often going to be in food-poor sites and you'll have a long wait getting them to 6 pop before you have Petra.
As for Hubble, an instructive example of what I'm talking about - principally, its reliance on other Wonders to get you to a point where it's going to make a difference - came in my most recent game.
The end-game situation had Brazil nearing a cultural victory; five civs were left, and a Brazil-Shoshone alliance seemed to be systematically wiping out the civs that Brazil did not dominate (and Assyria, which it did). When I won the space victory, the culture screen had Brazil perhaps 4 turns away from becoming influential with the final civ, Morocco.
Superficially, this is a game I wouldn't have won without Hubble: I needed the scientist boost and I needed the spaceship production boost. This is itself an unusual situation - where the rival for victory was not a science victory, but a cultural victory, in the unusual case on an 8-civ map that one AI civ managed to obtain all of the relevant culture Wonders.
But Hubble was one of six Wonders I built (I captured Machu Picchu). A turn or two away from defeat, I needed most of them to win. Without the Porcelain Tower I would have been one GS shorter and wouldn't have had the benefit of repeated research agreements with Brazil and the Shoshone. I only just had the faith to buy enough scientists and engineers; without Borobodur I not only wouldn't have had that, I also wouldn't have had the steady 20+ gpt income from Tithe that I did - later on I had too much gold for this to matter, but it was valuable in the earlier game.
Those are the most obvious cases (I don't actually recall what most of the other Wonders I built were. EDIT: One was the Oracle, but its value is extremely hard to quantify. I did use it to finish Tradition and so gain a consistent food boost - and aqueducts - from an earlier point than I otherwise would have), and in terms of time saved on victory I suspect without running the numbers that Borobodur at least - and probably the RA boosts from PT - outperformed Hubble.
PhilBowles
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The free towers from CN stack with the ones already built .. Like the free Mosque from "Mosque of Djenne" stacks with a previously built Mosque granted by religion ...
Hmm, I didn't know that - and from what I recall from the thread, no one on that seemed to have known it either.
Nor did I know the GM stacks - one of my key arguments in favour of it (as I like the Wonder) was that it provided the benefits of a mosque if you went for a different faith building. I do know that you can't build a mosque after you've been given one by GM.
Well, that would explain why I didn't know it...
I don't play enough culture games to really evaluate either, but aside from its awkward placement in Exploration (Uffizi may not be as good, but you're going to take Aesthetics over Exploration for a culture game) surely the Louvre's benefit is fairly substantial (particularly as France)?
The free towers from CN stack with the ones already built .. Like the free Mosque from "Mosque of Djenne" stacks with a previously built Mosque granted by religion ...
The Great Mosque does not give you an extra mosque when you build it in a city that already has a mosque. It labels the existing mosque as (FREE), but the city still just has one mosque and there are no extra yields beyond what you get with one mosque (3 faith, 2 culture and 1 happiness) and the Great Mosque itself (3 faith, 1 culture and 1 GE point).
It also isn't true about Broadcast Towers and the CN Tower. There was a CN Tower "multiple city 33% culture bonus" bug reported in early 2014 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=518332), but it was not reproduced (to my knowledge) and, in my testing, isn't present.
Strategist83
King
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National College. No, it's not a World Wonder, but that's the point: That's how overrated it is here.
Sharples
Prince
You need National College for everything. Lol.
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