diplomatic power of Defensive Pact

Based on my experience so far with the game, I feel like AIs don't consider defensie pacts into account when declaring war.

I've had games in which the top 3 civs (including me) maintained very good relationships all along, and had defensive pacts throughout the game. This trilateral coalition was also very hostile towards the remainder of the world, as the lesser civs were constantly declaring war on one of us, strengthening relations among the coalition.

You'd think that when the AI decides whether to declare or not, they would consider defensive pacts into account as well, the same way the weigh the military strength of their potential enemies.......

In one of my games, defensive pacts were the reason the world denounced me.

Yeah I pretty much avoid Defensive Pacts. The only time I ever consider it is if there is a hostile AI near me, my military is weak, my ally is near my enemy, and my ally is in good standing with the rest of the world. All of those conditions have to be met before I even consider it and I will only do it with 1 AI. I've been burned with it a couple of times (ally DOWs another ally, world hates me for backstabbing) and it's not worth it.

Ever since that one game, I only make Defensive Pacts with my neighbor up until ideologies. Unless that neighbor is Shaka or Montezuma.

Well I did a Diety Babylon game recently.

I had another Babylon to my West (I forgot that I had pre-set the Civs & it wasnt on random) who I was on good terms with and we both followed Order
Morocco was to our South and had expanded heaps and took over about a third of the pangaea. He was friendly until he took Autocracy. I did my best to maintain friendship but it was clear my situation was becoming perilous as my military was dwarfed in size.
So I signed a Defensive Pact with my neighbour Babylon. Morocco later actually attacked Babylon (not me) and so I was automatically at war.
It was difficult but not as bad as I thought. Basically Morocco had 2 war fronts to fight on so while I did feel stretched at times my economy was strong enough to win a SV and keep Morocco away.
So yes I do think if you & your friend have shared borders with a warmonger than a DP is useful.
If you get DoWed you're unlikely to get a peaceful Civ to help you, often a DP is the only way.

Or if the warmonger takes out your friend than your position is even worse...

I avoid Defensive Pacts because when they break my Ally seldom shows up to help repel our enemy. After being burned a few dozen times by The Late Lord False Ally, I am certainly not going to vacate my Homeland to send units across the map only to face a Backstab from one of my Neighbors. Come to think of it, that might be why my crafty AI Ally doesn't come help me

unfortunately defensive pacts are one of the most badly programmed stuff of Civ V. As the OP said the AI doesn't even consider that those exist leading to several consequences.

Unless you want to start World War 1!

Killlbray said:

unfortunately defensive pacts are one of the most badly programmed stuff of Civ V. As the OP said the AI doesn't even consider that those exist leading to several consequences.

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This is not necessarily a bad thing from a "game experience" or even realism point of view.
Just think of some historical examples.

World War 1 was not supposed to happen because every country had Defensive Pacts which were intended to make the cost of war greater than the gains.

World War 2 Britain signs a defensive pact with Poland, Germany calls bluff, annexes poor Poland who gets no support from Britain. France declares war on Germany also as part of its treaty with Britain, fast forward to Dunkirk and the Brits leave France to their inevitable fate.
Not the fault of the Brits of course, they weren't ready and their politicians feared the shedding of more blood but goes to show that Defensive Treaties don't necessarily work in real life, and I don't think the consequences should be too predictable in Civ 5 either. Honestly I don't mind the way it works now.

On that "one game" I made defensive pacts with Byzantium and The Dutch. Then the world hated me.

Redaxe said:

Well I did a Diety Babylon game recently.

I had another Babylon to my West (I forgot that I had pre-set the Civs & it wasnt on random)

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This is awesome - I didn't know it was possible. If you have 8 Attila's, what do they call the second city?

OldEarthRelic said:

This is awesome - I didn't know it was possible. If you have 8 Attila's, what do they call the second city?

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Whoa. That just blew mind.

I think the issue with defense pacts is the A I never and that means NEVER agressively protects the User. So there's no real inherit benefit.

But I do use it for two reasons. As anot her way of solidifying a friendship or as an Excuse to diplomatically declare war against a 3rd party that I know is beligerant.

You will find that it does not serve as an "excuse" in the eyes of any civ that is not also at war with that AI (and even then all it does is chop your warmonger penalties in half). Remember that in a defensive pact, you are declaring war on the AI that has DOWed your DP partner. The other AI civs do not care that you are honoring a DP -- they give you no credit for honoring a commitment to DOW someone else and they will view you as the DOWing partner.

Oh, and if the AI that DOWs your DP partner has a DOF with you, you are a backstabber in the eyes of every other civ.

Quick question: Do I get a diplo penalty just for declaring war?

I've had a full denouncement from the world to me because I declared war on one person. So yes.

Never got denounced from the whole world just for declaring war. Might be because I'm playing on Warlord.

Ever since a DP caused me to declare war on my friend way back on vanilla(and get alot of hate for it), I avoid them most of the time.

However, in my current game, I have found a suitable use for one. Me and Brazil and the Maya all border each other, and for a long time, we had all been friends. I was also friends with the Ottomans, who border me on the other side. At one point, the Ottomans invaded Brazil, and since I'm not a warmonger(and because I liked Brazil better), I decided to let my alliance with the Ottomans end. Around the time ideologies came into play, me and Brazil both went freedom, while the Mayans went autocracy. The Mayans began to dislike both of us, and he is the point and tech leader, which frightened me. So I changed my foreign policy to have a DP with Brazil and not make DOFs with anyone else, so I can't be labled a backstabber in the event of a war.

So far this has worked out fine. The Ottomans later went autocracy as well, and they don't like me either. So, with a hostile autocracy civ on either side of me and Brazil, us having a DP has made me feel more secure. At one point the Mayans did attack Brazil, which brought me into the war. However, we beat them back and made peace.

Using defensive pacts make you go to war with civilizations that are at war with your defensive pact partner. This sometimes may not benefit you because you don't always need to go to war.

Either you only make a DP to your neighbor, or you don't make one at all.