GOTM23 Succession Game [civ3]

Meanwhile, back in Arabia the Sultans of Swing are getting restless. Here's some more food for thought:

We are only three techs from the Middle Ages and the barb uprising that will take place then. We need to build our defences against a few big stacks of barb horses coming out of the east and/or the south. Ideally, I guess we should try to position to attack them as they appear by surrounding their camps with swords at distance three. But I'm not sure we can predict where their camps will appear. I don't know whether they will build new ones or burst out of their existing ones. Anyone know? If the latter then we need to make sure we know where they are. Each time we buy an AI map we get an update on all the barb camp positions not covered by the Fog. We need to minimise the fog and buy the world map regularly as we approach the new Age.

Apropos of which, we still haven't explored to the coast that must exist to our south. Probably a breeding ground for barbs as it's a long way from Egypt and Ottomans as well.

I've been checking out city placement issues, and it's interesting to note that Carthage is actually crowding us worse than the Ottomans. If we build cities at radius 7 or 8 to the west they are nearer to Carthage than they are to Makkah, so we may be glad of that strong culture we are growing, to help prevent flips.

We have one city missing from the north east of our first ring, and I am assuming the settler in transit is going to build where he now stands. There's a radius 7 site on the river bend north of Uskudar that would put more culture pressure on Uskudar to maybe flip the horses to us. There's a radius 7 site south of Madinah in the desert on the lake, and one to the east of that to grab the olives south east of Diriyah. That's five more sites with some resource/terrain/strategic purpose, giving us 14 total. That is actually about the optimum city count for a standard map at monarch level (85% of 16), so additional cities will run at high corruption levels. There are no other compelling city sites that I can see, so we can just place them where they will do most strategic good, as they won't benefit from any attempt at RCP. Examples are:
the southern end of the Persian lake, the eastern end of the lake east of Baghdad, the southern horses and associated lake, plus one between that and the southern radius 7 ring cities at about 10 from Makkah. These are all for denial and rapid transit as much as for our own purposes. I've tried to do a dot map, but it's a bit messy, and I'm tired. Maybe tomorrow ....

We are doing well in military strength. Rome is the only civ we rate Average against in F3, we are stronger than all the rest. I'm wondering if maybe we should declare on Rome soon and buy an alliance with Ottoman. Rome is a fair way distant, and they'd have to come through Ottoman to get to us, so we could let them wear each other down for 20 turns, then turn on Ottomans and cut them down on our way to Rome. Of course we'd need to be ready in case Rome cut Ottomans to pieces, but they don't have iron hooked up yet, so they don't have legions. I think they'd just bog down and kill each other slowly.

We are low on workers. We only have four, for a city count of nine and rising, and the terrain is getting more labour intensive. I would have suggested getting a ROP with Ottoman during the 20 turn alliance and building some roads to help our mobility, but we can't spare the workers we have.

Just some random ramblings to stimulate some discussion ....
 
Originally posted by AlanH
Meanwhile, back in Arabia the Sultans of Swing are getting restless. Here's some more food for thought:

We are only three techs from the Middle Ages and the barb uprising that will take place then. We need to build our defences against a few big stacks of barb horses coming out of the east and/or the south. Ideally, I guess we should try to position to attack them as they appear by surrounding their camps with swords at distance three. But I'm not sure we can predict where their camps will appear. I don't know whether they will build new ones or burst out of their existing ones. Anyone know? If the latter then we need to make sure we know where they are. Each time we buy an AI map we get an update on all the barb camp positions not covered by the Fog. We need to minimise the fog and buy the world map regularly as we approach the new Age.

Yes they appear at existing camps, in two recent games I was close to a camp when MA hit and saw the 16/32 barbs on my turn in that camp. I don't know if they appear in all camps on the map, or just some. I have a hunch based on a recent game (that should not be spoiled here) that they do appear at them all.

We should control the jump to MA, we should make sure we have a stack of (3 to 4) Swords next to the camps. If Swords can be on hill or mountain fortified then I'm sure we'll see many upgrades. The horses will just attack, attack, attack (in PTW they appear more selective ie. don't attack troops fortified on mountain, in CIVIII they just seem to attack). As we'll defend well we should see many upgrades because of the "two attack/defend same turn upgrade" rule. The problem will be getting our Swords in line at the right time and stopping the AI from destroying the camps early. That is why I suggested very early to look for a camp near sea so we can seal it off.

Originally posted by AlanH
We are doing well in military strength. Rome is the only civ we rate Average against in F3, we are stronger than all the rest. I'm wondering if maybe we should declare on Rome soon and buy an alliance with Ottoman. Rome is a fair way distant, and they'd have to come through Ottoman to get to us, so we could let them wear each other down for 20 turns, then turn on Ottomans and cut them down on our way to Rome. Of course we'd need to be ready in case Rome cut Ottomans to pieces, but they don't have iron hooked up yet, so they don't have legions. I think they'd just bog down and kill each other slowly.
Now that we are strong then we should reneogiate peace with any Civ that we are not due to attack soon. Funny I was looking in the diplomacy screen that says the size of our military is the same as the others, but the F3 screen says we are stronger. This is an easy way to get their spare cash. Do this for anyone with 20 gold or so and no other reasonable means of getting it from them, make sure we have a stronger military and do this every 20 turns for every AI. Make sure we do not do this once we have an attack planned on that civ, don't want to break the 20 turn peace deal. Well we want to keep our reputation for a while at least.
At this point only Neocarthage has gold that we can take, 18.

Originally posted by AlanH
We are low on workers. We only have four, for a city count of nine and rising, and the terrain is getting more labour intensive. I would have suggested getting a ROP with Ottoman during the 20 turn alliance and building some roads to help our mobility, but we can't spare the workers we have.
Yes we should launch this soon within 10 turns. My only concern is that this will wake Rome up to roading their iron.
 
A lot of interesting ideas in the last posts.
I have (quite surprisingly, in fact) followed the same logic behind a few, in the loneliness of my bedroom, while I went on another path on others -especially regarding Rome...

Here's the log.

Pre-turn
I am a bit puzzled about how to proceed. Our empire looks good and growing steadily; the army is shaping up well, but we can't sit on this.

Karasu fries more of his last remaining brain cells trying desperately to come up with some ideas.
The smell of burnt neurons fills the room; Clementina the cat, now the only sentient being there, smells the air with a surprised expression on her face...


So, I will follow this course of action:
1. keep on expanding as there is still room for settlers (esp. to the South, as Alan pointed out, even though that area may bee too far for an FP build).
2. Regroup our Swordsmen who are not barb hunting. A smaller group, to the North, will be used to attack Persia in case they get close to connecting their Iron. I think 3 to 5 should be ok; the rest will go to Dharha in preparation of a war with Ottomans and/or Rome (especially if they complete the Pyramids, see below)
3. Build more workers.
4. Within 10, declare war to the Zulus and ally with Carthage (at least), and leave Alweth with a war to fight... :D


I take the worker mining the mountain by Madinah; I prefer to improve easier tiles (17 turns are a long time to wait).

Switch Jeddah to Temple (needs expansion to grab the last olives), Damascus to Sword (Jeddah will provde expansion), Diryiah to Temple, Najran to Barracks (no more regulars!).

Establish embassies:
Egypt (45 gp), no resources; Oracle underway in Thebes.
Rome (47 gp), no resources; Pyramids underway in Rome.
India (47 gp), Iron connected; Settler due in 2 (Delhi at size 1).
France (50 gp), Horses connected; Oracle underway in Paris.



Turn 1 - 1025 BC
Madinah: Swordsman - Worker (cannot reach 10 spt; need to improve some terrain here)
Diryiah: Temple - Worker


Turn 2 - 1000 BC
Move units
Shuffle world map around for about 15 gp


Turn 3 - 975 BC
Kufah founded: barracks
Madinah: Worker - Swordsman
Trade map.
S and E Swordsmen chase barbarians, barbarians refuse the fight (come on!)


Turn 4 - 950 BC
Makkah: Settler - Spearman (to bring it back to size 5)
Riyadh: Barracks - Worker (cannot grow past size 2 until terrain is improved)
Switch Baghdad from warrior to temple (to grab the BGs)


Turn 5 - 925 BC
Move workers and Swordsmen around.
The barb camp E of Baghdad disappeared! Must have been razed by another civ (probably Ottos).


Turn 6 - 900 BC
Damascus: Swordsman - Swordsman
Diryiah: worker - worker
Swordsman in Diryiah goes to Dhahran (with Temple, Diryiah needs no MP right now).


Turn 7 - 875 BC
Makkah: Spearman - Settler
The French start the Great Library

Basra founded. Temple. Right in the face of a Carthaginian Settler :D


Turn 8 - 850 BC
Riyadh: Worker - Spearman
Rushed Temple in Baghdad


Turn 9 - 825 BC
Diryiah: worker -Spearman
Baghdad: temple - worker

I have been waiting so far to see if Egypt managed to get horses, before dragging them into a war with Shaka, but they didn't. Now they are on tech par with us (even though their military capability is close to zero...).
CoL has appeard, so it is really time to start spreading some confusion.

Declare war on Zulu, kill a Zulu wandering Archer south of our territory.

Sign Military Alliance with Carthage against Zulu
Trade Poly + Lit to Carthage for CoL + WM + 55 gp (all she has)
Give CoL to Spain for MA against Zulus
Sell WM and techs around until all AIs are broke (sorry, it was quite late and I forgot to note down the details :blush: )

Karasu repeatedly looks at the map and at the Diplomacy screen, where Caesar's smiling face grows larger and larger with every passing second...

Option 1: Ally (or RoP) with Ottomans to attack Rome directly. Hhmmm, I am not too confident in Uskudar flipping to us at a convenient time for us, and a 20-turns deal with Ottomans would bind us quite a bit as they are the closest civ to our borders.
Besides, there are no roads yet between Uskudar and Sogut; even with a RoP it would take some time to get to Rome.

But Rome is growing fast and they will connect the Iron sooner or later. So...

Option 2: Ally with Rome against Zulu :eek:
This might in fact speed up their connecting the Iron, but will slow down their expansion a little, and will cause them to send some troops to the end of the world.
In the 20 turns the deal will last, we can decide whether to attack Ottomans and/or Persia, and whether to proceed against Rome or not. In the second case, we would use those 20 turns to prepare and send there a reasonable amount of Swordsmen/Horsemen.

I like Option 2: give all techs to Rome for MA against Zulu (to keep him busy sending units to the other side of the world)


Turn 10 - 800 BC
Moved workers and Swordsmen
Disperse a barb camp, get 25 gp and a promotion to Veteran.





Conclusions:
Some Swords are already in Dharhan.
Uskudar has just grown to size 2, so it won't autoraze if we attack (I wouldn't mind keeping it); more Swords can be sent SE if we want to start and keep on fighing a bit more. They have also just founded Bursa due E of Baghdad.

The two Swords in Damascus, plus the one underway there, plus a couple more taken from Madinah and/or Diriyah should go to Kufah to be ready for a raid on Persia quite soon. We really don't want Xerxes to connect that Iron (and he looks like he might do that in the near future).

We will need to send some units towards Baghdad, as when the uprising comes some barbarians are bound to appear over there.
I used the Scouts to explore a bit the southern lands, but I would now bring them a little back and use them to patrol the territory (still thinking of the uprising).

We can prepare a little defense in case a Zulu unit makes it to our territory, but I think they will be quite busy with Carthage and Spain. I got Rome into this hoping they will stop expanding like crazy.

There are three groups of workers: one in the North, to irrigate Damascus and then connect and improve to Kufah; one is bringing Irrigation to Riyadah and Baghdad (B may not be connected, to have it build some warriors if we feel like).
The third group is working on Diriyah to have it produce a little more shields.

I forgot to MM Makkah to build a settler in four turns... :D
I would found the next city 2NE+1N of Dharhan, to make use of the improvements already in place.
The other option (a bit aggressive, in fact) is to found 3N or 3N+1NE of Kufah, to be ready for an aggression on Persia (and possibly to break their road to the Iron with a border expansion).

Monarchy is due next turn.

Of course, feel free to change anything I did so far if you have a different opinion on how to carry on the game!


The saves:

QSC Save at 1000 BC (strange that I remembered!)

The game in progress
 
@Karasu: Thanks, we're moving along very nicely. Well done remembering the 1000BC save.

There's lots to look at in your timeline and the save, so I'll just post the roster now and comment later.

Here's the roster:

AlanH
smackster
Karasu
Alweth (up now. 24 hours to "Got it")
MacBaldrick (on deck)

[EDIT] I downloaded the zips. Please rename the file before it is zipped so that it unzips to the agreed file name format. CF is gone, but not forgotten ;)
 
Some thoughts on future strategy (taking a good look at the map first unlike my last comments) based on 800 BC map.

Leave Persia for now - they have nothing we want right now (resources/wonders/position) so it is a diversion of resources. If they continue roading their cities we can use these later to open up fast attack routes to India & Spain rather than build our own roads.

Several interesting city locations present themselves : A/ 2nd city next to Dhahran. B/ city next to horses / spices to SE 3/ city next to 2 x goats / spices at S end of mountains (to SW). D/ city on jungle next to lake & spices in N (future jump off point to attack Persia but in mean time link to Persia for trade ?)
Link B to Dhahran, C to Basra & D to Kufa.

When we attack Ottomans / Rome take some settlers along to build city for recuperation, to activate existing roading for our use and to replace badly sited city we capture or where we don't want to have to use troops to prevent flips.

If attacking Ottomans go straight for Capital, Iznik & Izmit then make peace, the rest are scattered and not likley to grow signifcantly while we deal with Rome. After 20 turns + we can finish them off.

If Rome does links to iron (will take them a long time to road mountain (I don't think the AI doubles up on workers ?) send sword to destroy road and defend mountain.

What are your thoughts ( what have I missed, got wrong, what better ideas do you have) as a consensus will help continuity between different players turns.
 
Apologies for my delay in getting back, I had some RL to attend to :rolleyes:

@Karasu: It's OK. The file name thing is inconvenient, not life-threatening. It's just quicker for one person to change the name than for all of us to do so.

Lots of interesting ideas in Karasu's timeline and in MacBaldrick's post. One benefit from my delay is you don't get me shooting from the hip and it gives someone else a chance to pipe up and get in first.

Just in case anyone is in any doubt, we are not bothered about AI attitude towards us as we are not looking for their UN votes, and that's all attitude really affects. Sure it might slightly improve tech trade prices, but it's not worth gifting stuff to them for. If a civ is furious, so be it, it's not important. Reputation is different. We *do* need to keep our reputation intact, which means no broken treaties or 20-turn deals, no ROP rape, and make sure we have no forces inside their territory when we declare war.

I think the Zulu war is a good thing, it should keep them and the other civs busy for a while, and I like the thought that Rome might march half its army off across the map and split its forces ready to come back our way and be decimated when our MA expires. I suggest we get Egypt, and maybe France, into the Zulu fight as well, then we can concentrate on the other end of the map.

MacBaldrick is almost correct - Persia has nothing we want at the moment, except territory. But we need territory to achieve domination, and we want to achieve that quickly, so we should look at the earliest times to take out the various civs. Persia are an easy target for our swords before we get cataphracts, so if we think we could hold their cities we might do well to take them out soon. Though I take the point about letting them improve the terrain a bit first. Unless we can deny Rome iron we will need cataphracts to take out the legions. Rome has two iron sources they could hook up, though both are outside their cultural borders, and they could annex a third one north of their territory, so it could be a challenge to keep them iron-free.

When we go for Ottomans, I suggest we get India on our side. That'll provide a distraction for Suleyman, and keep the Indians off our backs for a while until we can get around to them. If we brought Rome in against Ottoman it might distract them from sending troops off to Zululand and splitting their forces, so it may be better not to do so.

We may be able to win the horses just by expanding Dhahran's border. Next turn we could pop rush its temple. I suspect our wider border might then cut the horses out of Uskudar three turns later. We can then road them to provide a fast route into Uskudar for a surprise attack, and onwards towards Sogut. If it doesn't work out that way then we can still take them out using pure military force.

I made some suggestions about our city placement options earlier, and I haven't really changed my views since then. I assumed Kufah would be one tile EAST (corrected!) of its current location to get access to the bonus grass. That's where the settler was standing last I saw. Where it is now is a bit closer to the vacant inner ring site I identified, in hills 4 tiles NE of Makkah, and it has no 2fpt tiles, but maybe we can still build that first-rank city. As I said, once we have 14 cities close to Makkah the rest are going to be totally corrupt as we are over the optimum for this map size and difficulty. So we should settle the two obvious sites south of Madinah and Diriyah, plus the first ring city NE of Makkah if it still works, plus the one I still like on the river bend north of Uskudar. After that we should go for strategic sites - resources, denial or trade and military routes and concentrate on how we get our second core going.
 
I agree that the attack on Ottoman should be imminent, we should aim to take the first four cities, Uskudar, Sogut, Izmit, Iznik. That works nicely in line, we'll need all our troops to take Sogut, and I think it would be a mistake to attack Antalya as the troops would be split. Taking Izmit and Iznik would block off Rome.

I think any new Swords should be sent this way to help. I think this attack should be slow, wait for the Vets to clean up. When they are damaged wait until they are healed. We have the time and a chance to get leaders. When we get an elite, give that unit easy wins. I'm only talking about waiting a turn or two between cities.

As the two nearest Persian cities are size one, I think we should wait a little on that attack.

As for the uprising I think we know exactly where they will be, we should control the move to MA, swap maps well in advance of it happening and get our troops in place. 32 horses will appear from each barb camp. I'd hate to lose our gold to them.

Oh, and road those horses.
 
Note the most likely candidate for us to get workers from is NeoCarthage. As their capital is close to the Zulu capital we could see workers running home. Once the workers are in the capital they are available for us to buy. Look out for this from all civs now they are at war.
 
Go Alweth!

Good points Smackster. Leaving Antalya alone will also distract some of the barbs when they come. They go after every nearby target. In my gotm I certainly didn't see more than ten. The rest must have gone after other targets.

Roster:

AlanH
Smackster
Karasu
Alweth (playing)
MacBaldrick (on deck)
 
I'm done. Here's the log:

0. Preturn - 800BC
Look around. That's it. Now, where to go from here?

END TURN
French want to trade world maps, so I agree.

Finish Monarchy, why not construction? And why don't we revolt while we're at it?

Oops, Makkah, Madinah, and Baghdad all descend into chaos.

I'll drop the research slider to 10%. I hope we're not trying to rush into the MA, because this won't help. At least it will give us plenty of time to set up for the barbarian boom.

1. 775BC

Ottomans have 52g, but I don't want to release Monarchy on the world just yet.

Erk! Workers near Riyadh, and I don't know what they're supposed to be doing. Aha! Looks like they're getting water to Riyadh.

Well, I'm not sure if we've decided on when we're going to war with the Ottomans, but it looks like Karasu had an idea, so I guess I'll attack. I'll follow the strategy of going slow and safe. Take the capital and the two I-towns.

I pay them 4 gold for their world map, since I figure we're going to be getting it back anyways. I hope. Then I declare war.

END OF TURN

Makkah: settlers - settlers
Jeddah: temple - spearman

2. 750BC

War on Ottomans doesn't go quite as well as hoped, lose a veteran swordsman.

Settler heads for spot between Riyadh and Baghdad.

END OF TURN

Give France maps for theirs and a gold.

Damascus: swordsman - swordsman (though I was tempted toward a temple, since I really love my city improvements)

3. 730BC

Uskudar is destroyed. (I could have sworn it had two pop just a turn or two ago.)

END OF TURN

Madinah: swordsman - worker

4. 710BC

More war.

END OF TURN

5. 690BC

Change Jeddah to worker because we need them up there and it's not growing anyways.

END OF TURN

Territory Map for World Map with Persia.

Oops. Forgot to MM Makkah.
Makkah: settler (heads for SW goats) - library (hope to pop rush it)
Madinah: worker - swordsman
Diriyah: spearman - barracks
Jiddah expands: worker - barracks

6. 670BC

kick neoCarthage out of our territory.

Alexmanistan is founded.

END OF TURN

Rome is advances on Alexmanistan?

Baghdad: worker - spearman

6. 650BC

Nothing unexpected. Tell Rome to leave.

END OF TURN

Damascus: swordsman - swordsman
Dharan: temple - barracks

India is building the Great Library

Rome goes toward Alexmanistan again.

7. 630BC

Is Rome trying to attack Zululand with three warrios by sending them through our land, or are they trying to take the undefended Alexmanistan? I tell them to get out.

END OF TURN

Riyadh: spearman - spearman

Indians are building the Colossus.

8. 610BC

I put the spearman in Alexmanistan and let the Romans through this time.

Wait, can't pop rush in Monarchy, so I put Makkah back to settler.

We have lots of money (718) so I spend 108 to finish the temple in Alexmanistan much earlier, so we can get to the goats.

END OF TURN

Rome and Zululand sign a peace treaty, but Rome keeps on moving its troops through, so I don't know what's up.

Makkah: settler - settler
Madinah: swordsman - worker
Alexmanistan: temple - barracks

9. 590BC

Head settler north for hill next to spices. Send swordsman to protect.

Take Sogut, gain an Elite, lose another Veteran.

Some of the other civs are getting some gold stock-piled, but I don't know what to trade them for it, since I don't want to trade off Monarchy for that little gold, and in fact I'd like to save it for another tech.

END OF TURN

Najran: barracks - spearman

Rome is building Great Library.

10. 570BC

Ottomans have Construction, so we might want to switch to Currency, since we'll probably be able to get Construction out of them for free. They also have a lot of money, so making peace after we take the cities we want should be pretty cheap.

I have Diriyah have a scientist, so that it won't go into disorder next turn.

I'll leave the rest to MacBaldrick.

Here's a screenshot:


Two issues to ocnsider as you begin your turn:

1. I forgot to settle where Uskudar had been.

2. You should consider changing research right to currency or something since we can probably squeeze construction out of the Ottomans.

HERE'S THE SAVE ZIP:

SG23C_BC0570.ZIP
 
As Ottoman have Construction then somebody else will soon get Currency they will swap and we'll be in the Middle Ages and find groups of 32 barbarians wandersing.

Good job on capturing Sogut, and I looked back to see why Uskudur was not captured, looks like they pop rushed as soon as we declare war. I even tried again just attacking them and they pop rush when we move in so nothing could be done about that. Couldn't leave the city there.

I think we need protection for that southern settler, imagine if the barbs arrive there after he settles.

I think that I might be tempted to leave that barb hut on the mountain to the south of Diriyah. Fortify the sword, and send 2 or 3 more down there. On his own that sword would die against 32 horses, but with 2 others, fortified and on a mountain the defence is very strong, they might all get elite promotions. If we don't get the rest there in time that sword just needs to move one north to get out of the way.

So I would use the spear in Meccas to provide southern defence. Then send both swords from Madinah and Diriyah to that barb hut. Jeddah has a spare warrior so bring him round to get promoted. One of the swords in Damascus needs to protect the northern settler. We could also use the Riyadh sword now either on the Otto front, or the barbs, I think it is just enough inside our territory to do that.

We should be able to get more cash by peace renogotiations, you can do this if in alliance. Looks like Egypt, Persia, NeoCarthage, and France have enough cash to make this worthwhile. Just click on active deals, click on the peace treaty.
 
Thanks Alweth. Good job taking Sogut. Did you consider settling closer in? There are two or three sites in my list that are closer to the core than the places your settlers are heading.

I think I'd have let Rome through. I guess they were trying to get to Zululand, and we could have had half their troops well away from Rome on our west, unable to upgrade to legions. Kicking them out may have caused them to negotiate peace since they couldn't get to the enemy. The good news is that they've broken a treaty and damaged their rep, and we now have no obligation to delay a war with them if we want to do so before they start building legions.

I suggest we don't road where the worker is standing now between Sogut and Alexmanistan, as that should be a city site. We need to starve Sogut down to pop 1 before we let it grow with our own citizens, to avoid flips. Particularly if we are going to let Ottomans survive for a while. We can make the non-resisting citizens tax men for more gold and we should move all but one of the garrison outside the city to avoid losses if it does flip while we are taming it. If a couple of swords stay just outside it will be easy to take back as there will just be one spear in residence.

@Smackster: Is it wise to renegotiate peace with civs we are in alliance with? Surely we have a 20 turn implicit peace deal already in progress, so we would effectively break that if we put it back on the table?

AlanH (on deck)
smackster
Karasu
Alweth
MacBaldrick (You're up. 24 hours to get it)
 
Originally posted by AlanH
I suggest we don't road where the worker is standing now between Sogut and Alexmanistan, as that should be a city site. We need to starve Sogut down to pop 1 before we let it grow with our own citizens, to avoid flips.
Take a look at our culture comparison, I think we have no chance of a flip.
@Smackster: Is it wise to renegotiate peace with civs we are in alliance with? Surely we have a 20 turn implicit peace deal already in progress, so we would effectively break that if we put it back on the table?
I've done this before, of course it is not always obvious when you have a rep hit, but what I do know is that the MA stays in place after you renegotiate peace, this I assume means its ok to do it.
 
You may be right about the flip probability, but I tend to play safe on this after having had a few bad experiences. The other reason I cut a city to pop 1 and then grow again is that I have found that war weariness hits cities with multiple foreigners much quicker than native cities. This could be significant later.

I'll take your word for it on the effect of peace renegotiation on allies. I've never tried it, but the logic escapes me and it sounds like a bug, since it seems to me that you are cancelling a 20-turn deal, even if you immediately choose to sell a new one.
 
I have it. Need to study the last moves + comments before playing my 10 tonight (or Sunday night).
 
Originally posted by AlanH
I'll take your word for it on the effect of peace renegotiation on allies. I've never tried it, but the logic escapes me and it sounds like a bug, since it seems to me that you are cancelling a 20-turn deal, even if you immediately choose to sell a new one. [/B]
I think that the peace deal and the MA deal are seperate deals, so you never cancel the MA. All we are saying to the AI is I'll guarantee you 20 turns of peace if you give me 25 Gold, and they happily agree. However, if we chose war then the MA would break and that would be our rep hit.
 
Originally posted by MacBaldrick
I have it. Need to study the last moves + comments before playing my 10 tonight (or Sunday night).

Good luck! Let us know if you want to discuss anything.

AlanH (on deck)
Smackster
Karasu
Alweth
MacBaldrick (playing)

@Smackster: That is where I'm confused. I thought any 20-turn deal included an automatic 20-turn peace treaty. On that basis, if you "break" the peace treaty to renegotiate it you *ought* to be considered to be breaking the associated deal. However, as I say, I'll accept that your experience says that's not so.
 
Originally posted by AlanH
@Smackster: That is where I'm confused. I thought any 20-turn deal included an automatic 20-turn peace treaty. On that basis, if you "break" the peace treaty to renegotiate it you *ought* to be considered to be breaking the associated deal. However, as I say, I'll accept that your experience says that's not so. [/B]

I just loaded up 800BC to check I'm not going mad. I guessed that I'm allowed to load up an old save turn and do something, as long as it doesn't take me to anything that could spoil anything in the future.

Anyway I just looked at our MA with Spain that year, the MA is greyed and has (19) in brackets, and you can't click on it. The peace deal is bold and no numbers next to it and you can click on it to renegotiate the deal.

Looks like we can get 80 gold or so on the current turn doing this.
 
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