How does religion spread/pressure work?

I thought it was like more cities in proximity = more pressure/faster spread but that doesnt seem true.

Sometimes i can apply religious pressure via trade routes, sometimes i cant. Sometimes i can spread religion to a FURTHER city via trade but i cant do it for a closer one.

Missionaries seem to do jack all for converting a city if it already has some non-pagans in it (whether yours, or theirs). Like 5/10 of the city are followers of your religion, a missionary does nothing.

You cant use inquisitors on cities you dont own, so im confused as to what you are supposed to use when engaging in a religious war. Considering that great prophets are too far rare and expensive to keep bombing onto enemy cities.

Im somehow losing a religion war even though i picked faster spread and have the 50% bonus due to printing presses AND i have 4 cities in close proximity to each other but somehow the enemy is applying more religious pressure than me?

* basic religious pressure is 6 from one city and does not depend on distance.
* pressures from nearby cities add up
* if a city is too far (>10 tiles away iirc) it does not exert pressure but it can do it with caravan. otherwise (city is close enough) caravan wont carry the pressure, as it is already exerted 'in a natural way'.
* missionary mission adds one-time 1000 pressure. if your city was subjected to 10k pressure already (from nearby cities and/or other missionaries) this another 1000 wont be any noticeable.
* prophets clear rival pressure like inquisitors. you can make one spread with a prophet and move it further while a cheaper missionary following the prophet would make an another spread to convert the city.

if the enemy has many cities of his religion close to your 4 cities and sends caravans from distant cities (especially from a holy city having grand temple, doubling exerted pressure) he may outpressure you.

Good summary from killmeplease. Also take a look at http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=521447#pressure

Thanks, in that case i guess further spread is better than faster spread, as you can get more cities to stack pressure on a city.

But how do you see just how much pressure a city has in total? And when does a new citizen convert based on pressure?

Im also confused as to how a AI in my game is spamming what looks like missionaries on city states to remove my pressure there. Its proving really effective and according to religion overview, he doesnt even have anything to boost missionaries. Edit : It looks like he has +25% missionary strength and spies exert religious pressure....but when i try using missionaries, they only convert like 1 or 2 people, while he seems to convert half with just one missionary?

I also pushed my religion to be the majority in all 3 of gandhi's cities, but every now and then his holy city mysteriously regains its holy city status. How is he doing that? With his dominant religion being mine, he shouldnt be able to make any of his own religion missionaries, etc.

Its really difficult to get enough faith in a tall strategy since faith is only generated by shrines/temples and some wonders, and a wide strategy would have way more of those....

Question said:

Thanks, in that case i guess further spread is better than faster spread, as you can get more cities to stack pressure on a city.

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depends on city locations.. imho, religious texts one is more reliable

Question said:

But how do you see just how much pressure a city has in total? And when does a new citizen convert based on pressure?

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a city starts with 100 'atheism' pressure, you need 101+ of your religion pressure to outgo it, that is 100/6=17 turns if thers only 1 city (e.g. your capital) influences that city. BUT each time a city grows, a major religion gets +100 of its pressure there. So if the sity is still unreligious and it has grown from size 1 to size 2, you need 201+ pressure now to convert it. this means a city of size 10 where no religions are presented requires 1001+ pressure to be converted, that is 2 spread missions as 1000 pressure isnt just enough.
if you see a city of size 14 and 9 followers of some religion it means that pressures from atheism and that religion are related as 5:9. it may be 500 atheism and 900 religious, or 1000 atheism and 1800 religion - you can just guess. Sadly the interface says nothing about actual pressure numbers.

Question said:

Im also confused as to how a AI in my game is spamming what looks like missionaries on city states to remove my pressure there.

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that AI may have Evangelism reformation belief

Question said:

I also pushed my religion to be the majority in all 3 of gandhi's cities, but every now and then his holy city mysteriously regains its holy city status. How is he doing that? With his dominant religion being mine, he shouldnt be able to make any of his own religion missionaries, etc.

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holy city excerts a pressure of 30 on itself (or 60 if the city has a grand temple), even if the city has a different majority religion.
to completely suppress it you need that much pressure there and even then the AI may resurrect his religion by generating a prophet and removing all your pressure points accumulated there. to make this harder adopt Unity of the Prophets reformation belief.

Question said:

Its really difficult to get enough faith in a tall strategy since faith is only generated by shrines/temples and some wonders, and a wide strategy would have way more of those....

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thats right. you should be wide to use your religion effectively.
if you're tall you'll have some chance if adopted Pilgrimage (+2 faith per foreign city of your religon) or allied some religious CS

But how can a civ build more missionaries even though they dont have a majority religion city?

I see this all the time. They can spam missionaries even after losing all their religion cities. Taking away all their religion cities doesnt cripple their religion at all...

Question said:

But how can a civ build more missionaries even though they dont have a majority religion city?

I see this all the time. They can spam missionaries even after losing all their religion cities. Taking away all their religion cities doesnt cripple their religion at all...

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these missionaries should be spreading the new majority religion, ant if not - its a bug. dont know if AI can resign himself on promoting its own religion but i did it for myself. its ok if say your religion gave you buildings which you already have in all cities and now you spread a foreign religion in your cities to get some other bonuses.

In my opinion the missionaries and prophets are too powerful. It just breaks the suspension of disbelief when a city full of one religion suddenly swings to an entirely different belief system in one turn. There's not a lot of historical precedent for that. Effectiveness of missionaries should depend on the force of your culture the way Great Musician's tours do.

Yea they arent spreading the majority religion, its really frustrating. Does anyone know if theres a patch that can fix this?

Also i dont get how you are supposed to spread religion to another continent without pissing people off....

I mean even on the same continent, i have both farther and faster spread as byzantium and persia is just spamming endless missionaries to stop me from converting his cities via pressure.

Helmling said:

In my opinion the missionaries and prophets are too powerful. It just breaks the suspension of disbelief when a city full of one religion suddenly swings to an entirely different belief system in one turn. There's not a lot of historical precedent for that. Effectiveness of missionaries should depend on the force of your culture the way Great Musician's tours do.

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100% - Spread should be gradual, and the religion should evolve, in an ideal game into bloated form of the ancients civ's beliefs, superstitions and dietry habits.

Perhaps occasionally an ordinary lay missionary could randomly become great, by having some astounding ancient understanding or wild new idea, and spread religion much more than his peers...but in doing so the religion would maybe change dramatically. Not always to the favour of the state. Schisms could happen if the state tries to control the religion too much...

I guess I'd like religion taken out of the states direct control, and decided by random-ish events and other choices made by the player.

Who's going to write me the passive religion mod

Ive been experimenting and im still confused about some stuff.

For example the AI never seems to use inquisitors, just missionaries. But with NO believes boosting missionaries, he can easily spam them and overwhelm my cities, whereas if i try it with evangelism, it still takes a lot of missionaries to convert one city.

I still dont get how you are supposed to peacefully convert another civ to your religion if they have founded another religion. They just get pissed and you cant take out their holy city without an inquisitor. Not sure if its a bug, but great prophets dont seem to remove heresy...

Also even if they have lost their holy city, i think they can spawn great prophets automatically and make a come back that way.

Passive pressure doesnt seem to do much to cities at all unless they have no religions in it. Does anyone have some actual figures for how much pressure is needed to convert a single citizen? A mod that lets you see religious pressure for a city would be incredibly helpful for this.

Im also not seeing why you would use great prophets to spread religion if they cant remove holy city status permanently. They cost a LOT, and if you are go full piety, spamming holy sites is much more useful.

I also tried using automatic missionary purchase, but instead of buying them in my holy city with the great mosque wonder (lets you spread 3 times), they were getting bought all over the place. You cant control where automatic purchases occur?

There was also once when i demanded that a AI stop converting my cities, and they agreed...but next turn later, he converted my city again, and there was no option to tell him off?

Belief wise, i find myself using the same ones all the time. I pick : +1 happiness per 2 cities following this religion, up to +15% production bonus, +2 culture per temple with 5 followers and faster religious spread. If i go full piety, i generally pick +30% influence when gifting gold to CS, because its very useful when im bribing CS for bonuses. If im in a hardfought religious war, i generally go Evangelism though (unity of prophets isnt very useful when the AI doesnt even use inquisitors, they spam missionaries on their own cities).

The happiness bonus is crucial if you dont have access to lots of luxuries and the +15% bonus to production is huge when making wonders (also really useful for puppets since you cant purchase for them, unless you are venice). Faster spread is self explanatory and is downright insane as Arabia, but i find that even though you may have huge pressure numbers, it takes forever to convert a city passively. It should not take 100+ turns with 200+ pressure and 5 trade routes....

+2 culture per temple because i find it very difficult for cities to grow borders in BNW after the early game culture buildings got massively nerfed. Seriously, whats up with that? Even with a amphithearter you are looking at a pitiful +3 culture for monument + amphithearter. Even the opera house and muesuem are +1 culture each too, and you cant generate great writers fast enough (even with every single GP bonus from wonders, world congress and policies).

What beliefs do you guys usually go?

Question said:

For example the AI never seems to use inquisitors, just missionaries. But with NO believes boosting missionaries, he can easily spam them and overwhelm my cities, whereas if i try it with evangelism, it still takes a lot of missionaries to convert one city.

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The later in the game you try, the harder it is for missionaries (even Evangelism powered missionaries) to make a dent in the accumulated pressure in a city.

I still dont get how you are supposed to peacefully convert another civ to your religion if they have founded another religion. They just get pissed and you cant take out their holy city without an inquisitor. Not sure if its a bug, but great prophets dont seem to remove heresy...

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You can't do it peacefully. Any AI with its own religion will regard your conversions of its cities as an aggressive act. As for holy cities, yes, there is no way to remove holy city character without capturing the city and zapping it with an inquisitor. You think it should be easier than that? Great prophets remove accumulated pressure in a city, but do not remove holy city character -- only an inquissitor can do that.

Also even if they have lost their holy city, i think they can spawn great prophets automatically and make a come back that way.

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Correct, as can you, if you lose your holy city.

Passive pressure doesnt seem to do much to cities at all unless they have no religions in it. Does anyone have some actual figures for how much pressure is needed to convert a single citizen? A mod that lets you see religious pressure for a city would be incredibly helpful for this.

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Correct. As for follower conversion mechanics, that is at best obscure.

Im also not seeing why you would use great prophets to spread religion if they cant remove holy city status permanently. They cost a LOT, and if you are go full piety, spamming holy sites is much more useful.

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That is a view. Not wrong, not right, depends on circumstances.

I also tried using automatic missionary purchase, but instead of buying them in my holy city with the great mosque wonder (lets you spread 3 times), they were getting bought all over the place. You cant control where automatic purchases occur?

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If there is a civilian unit in your holy city (such as a worker passing through, or an inquisitor or Great Person sitting there), the auto-purchased missionaries will be auto-bought elsewhere. If you have the Great Mosque and want to assure that all missionaries are bought in your capital, you should do the purchases manually.

There was also once when i demanded that a AI stop converting my cities, and they agreed...but next turn later, he converted my city again, and there was no option to tell him off?

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You can denounce him, or DOW him. You already told him to stop converting, and he agreed and either lied or changed his mind. Telling him "Stop Converting! And this time, I mean it!" wouldn't add much. You already know what you need to know about that civ. And, for what it's worth, you can do the same thing when the AI tells you to stop converting (reply "OK" and then keep converting) -- of course, the AI will be just as outraged as you are.

As for what beliefs I take, it depends entirely on the map, nearby civs and their religious choices, and my goals for the game. What you describe is a common set of safe "general utility" choices (although Ceremonial Burial was nerfed in BNW, and Ideologies provide so much happiness, that I often take tithe or another gold-giving founder belief instead). You should try to avoid settling into a rut, though. Variety is the spice of life (and this game).

I once tried using mass great prophets to convert another civ to my religion but i realised it was a waste of faith as the AI would just start mass spamming missionaries and convert all his cities back at a fraction of the cost i spent. I eventually concluded that there was no way to convert another civ properly unless you have a massive headstart in religious pressure since hes would just convert all his cities back for cheap and he will never get tired of doing that as its a AI...

Even with world religion + printing press + faster spread + farther spread bonuses + spamming multiple trade routes on one city as byzantine, it was just near impossible to convert another city as it took WAY too long.

Build inquisitors and station them in your cities. No more worrying about ai missionary spam in your cities

Yea but i mean hes spamming them at his own cities and i cant use inquisitors there...and i cant figure out a way to stop him from doing it short of fighting a war, but then people get pissed at me for being a warmonger....and i cant seem to figure out how to make warmonger penalties decrease, its silly when people remember me as a warmonger thousands of years later....