Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

Someone has already been through and adjusted the combat strength of the animal units. I know because when I set them up the subdued version had the same combat strength as their wild cousin. Now many of them are twice as strong. I wonder if this is the reason I had been finding the early eras a "give me". I hate "give mes".

I am not too concerned with their strength or even speed. However I think they should get some sort of bonus in their native biome. Especially now that we have new types of terrains and terrain types.

For example an animal may be better camouflaged in the environment they originated in.
 
I'm not sure who or what was done before, but they seem unbalanced as is (compared to one another). Thus, my suggested tweaks.

Subdued animals should be the same as their wild counterparts at the most. Weaker would make sense to me more than stronger.

Units made from buildings created from subdued animals is another story: Bear Rider, Rhino Rider, etc.

Until the arrival of the gun, humans were not top predators. Bears, wolves and even pigs were much more dangerous. In fact a small band of humans (1 unit) would probably not survive an attack. Luckily the control of fire would usually keep animals away and deter attacks.

Yes, humans would pool resources to get rid of dangerous animals in their vicinity, but outside of that the animals were still a big danger. Hammurabi killed over 1,000 lions in one year because of the threat to his city and the surrounding farms.

So, I would prfer them stronger rather than weaker.
 
Until the arrival of the gun, humans were not top predators. Bears, wolves and even pigs were much more dangerous. In fact a small band of humans (1 unit) would probably not survive an attack. Luckily the control of fire would usually keep animals away and deter attacks.

Yes, humans would pool resources to get rid of dangerous animals in their vicinity, but outside of that the animals were still a big danger. Hammurabi killed over 1,000 lions in one year because of the threat to his city and the surrounding farms.

So, I would prfer them stronger rather than weaker.

Yeah, but you also didn't have every animal in the kingdom going after them either. There is no differentiating between predator and prey in the game, so Donkeys, Horses, Deer, Snakes, Cows, Camels... they all will chase/attack units wandering by.

Additionally, the fact that Hunter types have +100%, +200%, even +300% BASE vs animals sorta throws that out of whack anyway.

BUT... if you want to make them stronger, then we can raise them across the board. :) I wasn't looking at their relative STR vs human units, I was trying to balance them across fellow animals.

Ori's suggestion has merit too, but not sure if there is anything in place to do that atm.
 
As a side bar bar to all this... I'd like to get build points versus the relivant myth when you kill animals outright in the wild/subdued animals of other players. The point of a myth is you don't understand something and are trying to explain it... and/or teach the grunts a lesson.

Also I think water animals shouldn't obsolete/:science: nerf the water myths until marine biology. To that end even if you can't even subdue it (like current public v17 giant squids) you can have stories about it circulating. Some of the names should be different Giant squid is obviously 'Myth of the Kraken' and Manatee/dugong should be 'Myth of the Mermaid'. Snakes 'Myth of the Serpent' and land reptiles 'Myth of the Dragon'.
 
As a side bar bar to all this... I'd like to get build points versus the relivant myth when you kill animals outright in the wild/subdued animals of other players. The point of a myth is you don't understand something and are trying to explain it... and/or teach the grunts a lesson.

Also I think water animals shouldn't obsolete/:science: nerf the water myths until marine biology. To that end even if you can't even subdue it (like current public v17 giant squids) you can have stories about it circulating. Some of the names should be different Giant squid is obviously 'Myth of the Kraken' and Manatee/dugong should be 'Myth of the Mermaid'. Snakes 'Myth of the Serpent' and land reptiles 'Myth of the Dragon'.

Interesting point. Killing an animal, or being killed by one could provide :hammers: to the capital towards the myth building. I would need to give all the myth buildings a cost and all the subdued units a "hurry building" amount of the same value. It would mean that all animals would be able to help hurry any building which may be OP, but it is possible. Something to try once v18 is out I think.

I am looking at having a different approach for sea animals to the one current for land animals. It should be more difficult to subdue since they can escape into a different dimension (down). However the chance of finding a resource should go up.
 
Speaking of that... any chance that we can get a percent chance reduction of the subued animal making another of a resource if there is one in a certain radius? I'm playing a raging barbs game and its getting disturbingly close to risking elephants (ivory) being considering a type of weed.
 
Speaking of that... any chance that we can get a percent chance reduction of the subued animal making another of a resource if there is one in a certain radius? I'm playing a raging barbs game and its getting disturbingly close to risking elephants (ivory) being considering a type of weed.

It is possible. I should also change the base chance of success for capture based on game speed, difficulty level and raging barbarians.
 
It is possible. I should also change the base chance of success for capture based on game speed, difficulty level and raging barbarians.

Hang on! What's raging barbs got to do with animals? Are they currently set up as being considered as barbarians in the spawn XML (there's a field for that which I would expect to be '0' for animals)...?
 
Hang on! What's raging barbs got to do with animals? Are they currently set up as being considered as barbarians in the spawn XML (there's a field for that which I would expect to be '0' for animals)...?
Correct, they all are set to be treated as barbarians in the spawn info xml. Should probably be 0 for all animals.
 
I am still getting this in the Audio area:

Spoiler :

[28137.182] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string SND_BUILD_MORMON_MOVIE of TagId 0
[28137.182] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string SND_BUILD_MORMON_MISSIONARY of TagId 0
[28137.182] Audio Manager: Successfully loaded 2D scripts file XML\Audio\Audio2DScripts.xml.
[28137.198] Audio Manager: Loading 3D Scripts file XML\Audio\Audio3DScripts.xml...
[28137.416] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string SND_FEMALE_MISSIONARY_SELECTION of TagId 0
[28137.416] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string SND_FEMALE_MISSIONARY_ACTION of TagId 0
[28137.416] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string SND_MORMON_MISSIONARY_ACTIVATE of TagId 0


[28141.706] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_ELEPHANTA of TagId 4
[28141.706] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_ELEPHANTA of TagId 4
[28141.706] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.706] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.706] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_GORILLA of TagId 4
[28141.706] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_GORILLA of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.878] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.878] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.893] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.893] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.893] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.893] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28142.003] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEASERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.003] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEASERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.018] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.018] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.018] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HAWK of TagId 4
[28142.018] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HAWK of TagId 4
[28142.018] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HAWK of TagId 4
[28142.018] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HAWK of TagId 4
[28142.034] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.034] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.034] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.034] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.049] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.049] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.049] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.049] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.065] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.065] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.065] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.065] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.081] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.081] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28148.976] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string NONE of TagId 5


also this:

RESMGR: Texture walruspacific_adult_m.dds failed to load
 
Hang on! What's raging barbs got to do with animals? Are they currently set up as being considered as barbarians in the spawn XML (there's a field for that which I would expect to be '0' for animals)...?

Why wouldn't they? Animals have always been barbarians and as far as I know having Raging barbarians mans more animals at the start of the vanilia game of BtS.
 
Why wouldn't they? Animals have always been barbarians and as far as I know having Raging barbarians mans more animals at the start of the vanilia game of BtS.

It was always my assumption that barbarians are bad (so raging is more challenging). However, with hunting animals are (bropadly speaking) good. More animals is less challenging in many ways. Hence the original purpose of raging (to have a more challenging game, no?) is muddied by having animals be considered barbarians for spawning purposes in C2C (with subduing)...
 
It was always my assumption that barbarians are bad (so raging is more challenging). However, with hunting animals are (bropadly speaking) good. More animals is less challenging in many ways. Hence the original purpose of raging (to have a more challenging game, no?) is muddied by having animals be considered barbarians for spawning purposes in C2C (with subduing)...

Yes and no. More animals means more Buildings, but you also have to be more careful about what units you send out of your borders. Also, while the barbarians are raging for much of the early game, exploration is incredibly dangerous. Once they are done though, it's a hunter's paradise.

In my opinion it's a reward for surviving the waves of Neanderthals. In addition to that, the REAL barbarian units arrive after, and by then, the Myths all expire since Writing is discovered about that.
 
It was always my assumption that barbarians are bad (so raging is more challenging). However, with hunting animals are (bropadly speaking) good. More animals is less challenging in many ways. Hence the original purpose of raging (to have a more challenging game, no?) is muddied by having animals be considered barbarians for spawning purposes in C2C (with subduing)...

Animals are dangerous. Or at least they were, their combat strength has dropped to where you can't not win which is a big problem in my opinion.
 
Animals are dangerous. Or at least they were, their combat strength has dropped to where you can't not win which is a big problem in my opinion.

As I mentioned in my other post, if you want to increase their STR that is fine with me. Take a look at my recommendations and then we can say add +1 to the STR to each, so it remains consistent across the board.

Another option is to reduce the base bonus Hunters get. Rangers at +325% without even any promos seems OP to me.
 
Animals are dangerous. Or at least they were, their combat strength has dropped to where you can't not win which is a big problem in my opinion.

Well, cannot not win depends on when, but you're right the transition from can rarely win to cannot not win is very rapid around the time you get your STR3 units and/or trackers. Maybe we need a few more (rarish but not stupidly rare) high strength animals. Can probably be best achieved by (selectively) increasing strength of a few units (idealy predators), but must be careful to effectively make getting the one subdue you need to be able to build trackers so hard to get you don't need the trackers by the time you get it). Hence at least some of the units that lead to the master hunter need to stay weak enough that they can reasobaly be killed by lucky wanderers or by defending scouts.
 
Well, cannot not win depends on when, but you're right the transition from can rarely win to cannot not win is very rapid around the time you get your STR3 units and/or trackers. Maybe we need a few more (rarish but not stupidly rare) high strength animals. Can probably be best achieved by (selectively) increasing strength of a few units (idealy predators), but must be careful to effectively make getting the one subdue you need to be able to build trackers so hard to get you don't need the trackers by the time you get it). Hence at least some of the units that lead to the master hunter need to stay weak enough that they can reasobaly be killed by lucky wanderers or by defending scouts.

The minimum combat strength for animals used to be 2, now almost all have combat strength 1.

I agree that more need to be able to build the master hunter.

Thinking on the earlier suggestion that animals have special terrain bonuses to movement - I think that it may need to be done using a set of promotions or we need to add in some more tags in the unit infos like the terrain attack bonus for movement. I will think more on it.
 
I am still getting this in the Audio area:

Spoiler :

[28137.182] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string SND_BUILD_MORMON_MOVIE of TagId 0
[28137.182] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string SND_BUILD_MORMON_MISSIONARY of TagId 0
[28137.182] Audio Manager: Successfully loaded 2D scripts file XML\Audio\Audio2DScripts.xml.
[28137.198] Audio Manager: Loading 3D Scripts file XML\Audio\Audio3DScripts.xml...
[28137.416] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string SND_FEMALE_MISSIONARY_SELECTION of TagId 0
[28137.416] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string SND_FEMALE_MISSIONARY_ACTION of TagId 0
[28137.416] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string SND_MORMON_MISSIONARY_ACTIVATE of TagId 0


[28141.706] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_ELEPHANTA of TagId 4
[28141.706] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_ELEPHANTA of TagId 4
[28141.706] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.706] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.706] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_GORILLA of TagId 4
[28141.706] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_GORILLA of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.722] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.878] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.878] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.893] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.893] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.893] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28141.893] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HORSE of TagId 4
[28142.003] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEASERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.003] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEASERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.018] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.018] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.018] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HAWK of TagId 4
[28142.018] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HAWK of TagId 4
[28142.018] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HAWK of TagId 4
[28142.018] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_HAWK of TagId 4
[28142.034] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.034] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.034] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.034] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.049] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.049] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.049] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.049] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.065] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.065] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.065] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.065] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.081] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28142.081] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string AS3D_SEA_SERPENT of TagId 4
[28148.976] ERR: FAudioManager::GetAudioTagIndex(): Could not find string NONE of TagId 5


also this:

RESMGR: Texture walruspacific_adult_m.dds failed to load

Very meaningful error messages:rolleyes:. basically they tel us nothing about where they are occurring. I could not find where the walrus one was coming from but it does not look like it is coming from the resource.:confused:

I am looking into the sounds, since nothing seems to enable me to play a game. :(

Edit Fixed the Mormon ones but probably broke the Andean ones doing so. Fixed the female missionary sounds. Can't figure out where AS3D_ELEPHANTA comes from.
 
Very meaningful error messages:rolleyes:. basically they tel us nothing about where they are occurring. I could not find where the walrus one was coming from but it does not look like it is coming from the resource.:confused:

I am looking into the sounds, since nothing seems to enable me to play a game. :(

Edit Fixed the Mormon ones but probably broke the Andean ones doing so. Fixed the female missionary sounds. Can't figure out where AS3D_ELEPHANTA comes from.

You definitely need to get ahold of Windows Grep.

Spoiler :
Code:
<UnitArtInfo>
 			<Type>ART_DEF_UNIT_ELEPHANT</Type>
            <Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Units/Elephant.dds</Button>
             <fScale>0.32</fScale>
             <fInterfaceScale>0.8</fInterfaceScale>
             <bActAsLand>0</bActAsLand>
              <bActAsAir>0</bActAsAir>
              <NIF>Art/Units/Elephant/Elephant.nif</NIF>
              <KFM>Art/Units/WarElephant/WarElephant.kfm</KFM>
               <ShadowDef>
               <ShadowNIF>Art/Units/01_UnitShadows/WarElephantShadow.nif</ShadowNIF>
               <ShadowAttachNode>BIP Pelvis</ShadowAttachNode>
               <fShadowScale>1</fShadowScale>
               </ShadowDef>
               <fBattleDistance>0.45</fBattleDistance>
               <fRangedDeathTime>0.31</fRangedDeathTime>
               <bActAsRanged>0</bActAsRanged>
               <TrainSound>AS2D_UNIT_BUILD_UNIT</TrainSound>
               	<AudioRunSounds>
                    <AudioRunTypeLoop/>
                    <AudioRunTypeEnd/>
               	</AudioRunSounds>
               	<SelectionSound>AS3D_ELEPHANTA</SelectionSound>
               	<ActionSound>AS3D_ELEPHANTA</ActionSound>
         </UnitArtInfo>
 
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