Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I second all of these. Each struck me the same way.
C2C - Units
- Thread starter EldrinFal
- Start date
I second all of these. Each struck me the same way.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Vokarya
- Workboat (Ancient) [Prehistoric Era] = Fishing Boat without Sails
- Workboat (Classic) [Prehistoric Era] = Fishing Boat with Sails
- Workboat (Middle Ages) [Medieval Era] = Fishing Boat with Sails and Rudder
- Modern Workboat [Industrial Era] = Fishing Boat with Screw Propeller
- Constructor Ship [Modern Era] = Robotic Fishing Boat
As you can see they just need better names. Where they are makes sense. Thus I highly recomend that you do not move them but instead rename them.
Good idea for it to upgrade to the Heavy Axeman instead.
- Workboat (Ancient) [Prehistoric Era] = Fishing Boat without Sails
- Workboat (Classic) [Prehistoric Era] = Fishing Boat with Sails
- Workboat (Middle Ages) [Medieval Era] = Fishing Boat with Sails and Rudder
- Modern Workboat [Industrial Era] = Fishing Boat with Screw Propeller
- Constructor Ship [Modern Era] = Robotic Fishing Boat
As you can see they just need better names. Where they are makes sense. Thus I highly recomend that you do not move them but instead rename them.
Good idea for it to upgrade to the Heavy Axeman instead.
I wasn't going to actually move them, just recommend that they be moved. I can see what you are talking about, but I think the second Workboat comes too quickly on the tech tree after the first.
Here's what I was thinking about the Galley and the Canoe Builder's Hut. The Canoe Builder's Hut should upgrade to the Shipwright, but the Galley is technically Prehistoric. I really think that ships more complex than the Canoe shouldn't exist that early, so the train of thought I had is:
- Galley moves to Naval Warfare (alongside War Galley).
- Shipwright moves to Naval Warfare.
- Sailing gives all Water units +1 move. This represents adding sails to rafts and canoes, and helps with the slow-moving ship problem. I find Canoes that only move 1 tile per turn to be frustrating, especially when damage from reefs gets involved.
- Then Canoe Builder's Hut can upgrade to Shipwright. If the city can't build Shipwright, it can still build Canoe Builder's Hut until the Hut goes obsolete at Railroad.
With that setup, you may not even need the second Workboat.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Not really. If you do not have the resources to make a Shipwright then getting the 2nd level boat can take awhile to get. Also since they are just fishing boats I don't see why you would need a complex ship to just have sails. Meaning a warship takes more technology than a fishing boat.
As for the Canoe Builder's Hut, I specifically did not want ti to upgrade into the Shipwright because it can be used for Rivers. Big ships cannot enter rivers which is why canoes can still be used (until steamboats).
I would not like to move those ship around unless we had say a Catamaran or Reed Sail Boat or something between. Galley is the first Sail based transport ship we have so it has to go at sailing even if it is in the Prehistoric Era.
Its a long time before Rudder so I would suspect that you would have the Workboat (Classic) for a long time under the current system. Even if it took you awhile to make a Shipwright.
In short please don't change that stuff. There is method to my madness.
As for the Canoe Builder's Hut, I specifically did not want ti to upgrade into the Shipwright because it can be used for Rivers. Big ships cannot enter rivers which is why canoes can still be used (until steamboats).
I would not like to move those ship around unless we had say a Catamaran or Reed Sail Boat or something between. Galley is the first Sail based transport ship we have so it has to go at sailing even if it is in the Prehistoric Era.
Its a long time before Rudder so I would suspect that you would have the Workboat (Classic) for a long time under the current system. Even if it took you awhile to make a Shipwright.
In short please don't change that stuff. There is method to my madness.
OK. I accept your explanations. I was just thinking of ideas based on what I could see.
Il Principe
Prince
With the new equipment system, I wonder if some units could have their prequisites lowered?
As an example : the swordsman requires iron. But you can make swords of copper or bronze as well. So make it an OR requirement, but better equipment available if you got acces to higher quality materials. Chain could be
Copper Swords( need copper , and copper working tech)
Bronze Swords ( need copper, tin and bronze working tech
Iron swords ( need iron and iron working tech)
Steel swords ( need iron and.. let´s say Smithing tech)
Folded Steel swords ( like Katanas, reuires iron and perhabs Alchemy tech. Or Smithing, but a special building)
This could also work for more modern units. Like modern arour being available even if you lack aluminium, but weaker thern with it due to equipment.
And as someone said in the motbaling thread: Ships can only be upgraded so much before you realy need to build a new one from scratch. Equipment could be used to simulate those limited upgrades.
As an example : the swordsman requires iron. But you can make swords of copper or bronze as well. So make it an OR requirement, but better equipment available if you got acces to higher quality materials. Chain could be
Copper Swords( need copper , and copper working tech)
Bronze Swords ( need copper, tin and bronze working tech
Iron swords ( need iron and iron working tech)
Steel swords ( need iron and.. let´s say Smithing tech)
Folded Steel swords ( like Katanas, reuires iron and perhabs Alchemy tech. Or Smithing, but a special building)
This could also work for more modern units. Like modern arour being available even if you lack aluminium, but weaker thern with it due to equipment.
And as someone said in the motbaling thread: Ships can only be upgraded so much before you realy need to build a new one from scratch. Equipment could be used to simulate those limited upgrades.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I would like to see how the combat mod works before moving units around. In the extreme you can also have Obsidian Swords like the Aztecs and Mayans used. So if you started swordmen anywhere it would be at Obsidian Weapons tech.
I'm thinking in the much more near term, I don't think the combat mod will be ready or workable anytime soon. That said, I think that the early workboats are a bit too clustered now.
Also, what are the benefits in upgrading Workboats before the Industrial Era?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Could one have a bone sword or a wood sword do you think? Out of curiosity, obsidian swords, those would've been mostly bone or wood with obsidian edging right? Surely obsidian would've been a bit brittle for such a large, long and thin object?
Yeah, most Obsidian weapons were spears or similar.
Il Principe
Prince
Most. But I think there were crude sowrd or axe like weapons with obsidian or flintstone "blades" glued to the edge of the wooden or bone frame.
And although I used the swordsmen as an example, I meant this muhc more general
Randomness
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To call the obsidian weapons used by the Mesoamericans "swords" is not really accurate. An Aztec "sword" is more of a wooden club with obsidian edging "It was similar to a large wooden club with cuts in the side to hold the sharpened obsidian."(wikipedia). This would probably be closer to an advanced version of the mace or even spiked club in C2C terms.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Well... a Bone sword seems perfectly feasible to me, albeit extraordinarily crude. If we include a very early swordsman who could start with bone or wood it wouldn't be problematic to have an Obsidian Sword as well, even if it IS a flat wooden slab with obsidian slotted into the 'edges'.
I'm not going to be making more Early units for a good long while, I think we have enough currently for the early eras to be interesting and balanced.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Please don't mess with the work boats. They are fine.
There are plenty of other units we can focus on. Do you want me to assign you more? Because I have a bunch if you want them.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Yeah the Macuahuitl were very sophisticated. Compared to even metal weapons they were pretty amazing. Even the Spanish had a hard time defending against it and they had metal armor, steel weapons and early firearms.
Randomness
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I was not commenting on their strength or effectiveness, but if units are decoupled from their weapons due to an equipment system, the unit represents the technique used to handle the weapon. I am not an expert on Aztec warfare, but I find it hard to believe that using a Macuahuitl would be anything like using a sword and more similar to a club or mace. Therefore, to represent this unit in game, a mace or club unit would be used with the Macuahuitl as a very powerful promo/equipment. It doesn't really matter much though, since such specifics are kind of pointless until the equipment system is functional.
Please don't mess with the work boats. They are fine.
There are plenty of other units we can focus on. Do you want me to assign you more? Because I have a bunch if you want them.
Sure, I'm going to be doing some more SDK work but by now units are so easy that they don't take too much time. So long as they are after the Renaissance Era I'm fine adding more stuff.
Question about the Ambusher: I was looking at unit lines, trying to identify places where a new unit might fit in and smooth out the power curve, and I noticed that the Ambusher has the same "cascade" problem that I fixed with regards to Merchants, Vassals, and Warlords. If you build all of your National crime units (Rogue, Assassin, etc.), Ambusher reappears in any city that has the Poison Crafter's Hut, since the Ambusher has no national limit; after the Prehistoric Era, though, you really wouldn't want to build it since it is only 3 Strength. The Ambusher has a real <ForceObsoleteTech> of Matchlock, but a de facto force obsolete at Alchemy when the Poison Crafter's Hut obsoletes.
Should we move the Ambusher's <ForceObsoleteTech> to something else, like in the Ancient Era? Or give it the ability to upgrade to some other non-National Unit?
Should we move the Ambusher's <ForceObsoleteTech> to something else, like in the Ancient Era? Or give it the ability to upgrade to some other non-National Unit?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Most should be. However I did want to have your existing Basque unit replaced by an earlier culture unit (if I ever find/make one).
