Improvement Ideas and Discussion

0100010 · Mar 12, 2014

Faustmouse said:
Talking about mines, what are your plans regarding mines and forests? I think right now the Stone Tool Maker and Mines don't remove Forests while Shaft, Modern and Core Mines do. I'd rather have two different lines which slightly different values where one removes features while the other don't.

Every single "new line" is a tremendous amount of tedious work, especially just for a want not to remove a forest. Every single improvement has to balanced out in progression, have a build action made, and text keys for both the improvement and build action, and then all the workers have to have the build action incorporated properly.

For the sake of consistency I think the entire mine chain should remove forest, but someone else can tackle that. I'd prefer not to edit buildinfos on things that are already working.

I'm not going to make any more new improvement beyond what I've listed already during this phase on working on it.

Snofru1 · Mar 12, 2014

0100010 said:
I may not have time to finish the bulid/worker hookups and text clean-up before being away for a bit.

Then don´t do it at all until you are back and have time. This is not only very time-consuming (I am sure) but can also be very game breaking.
I wouldn´t want to have another instance where major changes are done in a haste and then the person who has done it is gone before any bug hunting or fine tuning is done. I don´t want to read any more "we know that it´s buggy but the person who has done it has RL issues" until it can be avoided.

0100010 · Mar 12, 2014

Another giant table, this one indicates bonus yields and various terrain validities and requirements.

|

|

|

|ValidOnBonus|TradeOnBonus|Terrain Validity|Notes
Beacon ||||||Reef, Coral|Water Only
A Lighthouse ||||||Reef w/ Beacon, Coral w/ Beacon|Water Only
Marine Preserve ||||||Reef w/ Lighthouse, Coral w/ Lighthouse, Natural Wonders|Water Only
Scavenging Camp (Wild) ||||||NA|
--Bison|1|||y|y||
--Deer|1|||y|y||
--Fur|1|||y|y||
--Guinea Pig|||1|y|y||
--Elephants|1|||y|y||
--Kangaroo|1|||y|y||
--Mammoth|1|||y|y||
--Rabbits|||1|y|y||
--Sea Lions & Seal|1|||y|y||
--Walrus|1|||y|y||
--Poultry|1|||y|y||
--Parrots|||1|y|y||
Hunting Camp ||||||NA|
--Bison|1|1||y|y||
--Deer|2|||y|y||
--Fur|1||1|y|y||
--Guinea Pig|||1|y|y||
--Elephants|1|1|1|y|y||
--Kangaroo|2|||y|y||
--Mammoth|1|1|1|y|y||
--Rabbits|||1|y|y||
--Sea Lions & Seal|1|1||y|y||
--Walrus|1|1|1|y|y||
--Poultry|1|1||y|y||
--Parrots|||2|y|y||
Hunting Preserve ||||||NA|
--Bison|2|2||y|y||
--Deer|3|1||y|y||
--Fur|1||3|y|y||
--Guinea Pig|||2|y|y||
--Elephants|1|1|3|y|y||
--Kangaroo|3|||y|y||
--Mammoth|1|2|2|y|y||
--Rabbits||1|1|y|y||
--Sea Lions & Seal|1|1|2|y|y||
--Walrus|1|1|2|y|y||
--Poultry|1|2||y|y||
--Parrots|||3|y|y||
Wildlife Sanctuary ||||||NA|
--Elephants|||4|y|N||
--Fur|||4|Y|N||
--Parrots|||4|Y|Y||
--Sea Lions & Seal|||4|Y|N||
--Walrus|||4|Y|N||
--Mammoth|||4|Y|N||
--Bison|||4|Y|Y||
Cottage ||||||Freshwater, Grass, Plains, Lush, Scrub, Muddy|Req. Flatlands, Req Nature Yield 1 :food:

Hamlet ||||||Freshwater, Grass, Plains, Lush, Scrub, Muddy|Req. Flatlands, Req Nature Yield 1 :food:

Village ||||||Freshwater, Grass, Plains, Lush, Scrub, Muddy|Req. Flatlands, Req Nature Yield 1 :food:

Town ||||||Freshwater, Grass, Plains, Lush, Scrub, Muddy|Req. Flatlands, Req Nature Yield 1 :food:

Suburbs ||||||Freshwater, Grass, Plains, Lush, Scrub, Muddy|Req. Flatlands, Req Nature Yield 1 :food:

Desert Camp ||||||Desert, Dunes, Scrub, Cactus, Oasis|Req. Irrigation
Jungle Camp ||||||Jungle|
Wetlands Camp ||||||Marsh, Muddy, Swamp, Flood Plains, Rainwater Basin|
Seed Camp ||||||Grass, Plains, Lush, Scrub. Muddy|Req. Irrigation, Req. Flatlands
--Wheat|1|||Y|Y||
--Potato|1|||Y|Y||
--Rice|1|||Y|Y||
--Corn|1|||Y|Y||
--Melon|1|||Y|Y||
--Barley|1|||Y|Y||
--Melon|1|||Y|Y||
--Pumpkin|1|||Y|Y||
--Squash|1|||Y|Y||
Farm ||||||Freshwater, Grass, Plains, Marsh, Lush, Scrub. Muddy|Req. Irrigation, +1 :food:

on Irrigated, Req. Flatlands, Carries Irrigation
--Wheat|2|||Y|Y||
--Potato|3|||Y|Y||
--Rice|1|||Y|Y||
--Corn|2|||Y|Y||
--Melon|1|||Y|Y||
--Barley|2|||Y|Y||
--Melon|1|||Y|Y||
--Pumpkin|1|||Y|Y||
--Squash|1|||Y|Y||
Vertical Farm ||||||Freshwater, Grass, Plains, Marsh, Lush, Scrub. Muddy, Tundra|Req. Flatlands
--Wheat||||Y|Y||
--Potato||||Y|Y||
--Rice||||Y|Y||
--Corn||||Y|Y||
--Melon||||Y|Y||
--Barley||||Y|Y||
--Melon||||Y|Y||
--Pumpkin||||Y|Y||
--Squash||||Y|Y||
Windmill ||||||Hills|
Modern Windmill ||||||Desert, Barren, Scrub, Dunes, Salt Flats, Rocky, Plains, Grass, tundra, Permafrost, Ice|
Sea Mill ||||||Coast, Polar Coast, Tropical Coast|Water Only
Tidal Harness ||||||Coast, Polar Coast, Tropical Coast|Water Only
Solar Panels ||||||Desert, Barren, Scrub, Dunes, Salt Flats|
Watermill ||||||River|Req. River, Req. Flatlands
Hydro Dam ||||||River|Req. River, Req. Flatlands
Offshore Platform ||||||NA|Water Only
--Oil|-2|2|2|Y|Y||
--Natural Gas|-2|2|2|Y|Y||
Extraction Facility ||||||NA|Water Only
--Oil|-2|2|2|Y|Y||
--Natural Gas|-2|2|2|Y|Y||
--Methane Ice|-2|2|2|Y|Y||
--Geothermal Sea Vent|-2|2|2|Y|Y||
Submerged Town ||||||Ocean, Coast, Polar Ocean, Polar Coast, Tropical Ocean, Tropical Coast|Water Only
Workshop ||||||Freshwater, Grass, Plains, Lush, Scrub. Muddy, Barren, Rocky|Req. Flatlands
Factory ||||||Grass, Plains, tundra, Ice, Desert, Barren, Lush, Scrub, Muddy, Permafrost, Rocky|Req. Flatlands
Manufacturing Complex ||||||Grass, Plains, tundra, Ice, Desert, Barren, Lush, Scrub, Muddy, Permafrost, Rocky|Req. Flatlands
Tar Gatherer ||||||Tarpit|
Hydrocarbon Well ||||||Tarpit|
--Oil||2|2|Y|Y||
--Natural Gas||2|2|Y|Y||
Groundwater Well ||||||Rocky, Barren, Desert, Dunes|Carries Irrigation
Fishing Boats ||||||NA|Water Only
--Clam|2|||Y|Y||
--Crab|2|||Y|Y||
--Fish|3|||Y|Y||
--Murex|||3|Y|Y||
--Pearls|1||2|Y|Y||
--Shrimp|2|||Y|Y||
--Lobster|1||1|Y|Y||
Harvest Kelp ||||||Kelp, Seagrass|Water Only
Whaling Boats ||||||NA|Water Only
--Whales||1|2|Y|Y||
Whaling Ships ||||||NA|Water Only
--Whales||2|2|Y|Y||
Fossil Dig Site ||||||Tarpit|
--Fossils|||2|Y|Y||
Archaological Site ||||||City Ruins, Arcology Ruins|
--Ancient Relics*||||Y|Y||Resource may go obsolete
Fruit Gathering Camp ||||||NA|
--Apple|1|||Y|Y||
--Banana|1|||Y|Y||
--Lemon|1|||Y|Y||
--Spices|||1|Y|Y||
--Almonds|1|||Y|Y||
--Fig|1|||Y|Y||
--Mango|1|||Y|Y||
--Papaya|1|||Y|Y||
--Coconut|1|||Y|Y||
--Dates|1|||Y|Y||
--Pistachio|1|||Y|Y||
--Pomegranate|1|||Y|Y||
--Prickly Pear|1|||Y|Y||
--Olives|1|||Y|Y||
--Guava|1|||Y|Y||
Fruit Picking Camp ||||||NA|
--Apple|1||1|Y|Y||
--Banana|1||1|Y|Y||
--Lemon|1||1|Y|Y||
--Spices|1||1|Y|Y||
--Almonds|1||1|Y|Y||
--Fig|1||1|Y|Y||
--Mango|1||1|Y|Y||
--Papaya|1||1|Y|Y||
--Coconut|1||1|Y|Y||
--Dates|1||1|Y|Y||
--Pistachio|1||1|Y|Y||
--Pomegranate|1||1|Y|Y||
--Prickly Pear|1||1|Y|Y||
--Olives|1||1|Y|Y||
--Guava|1||1|Y|Y||
Orchard ||||||NA|
--Apple|3||1|Y|Y||
--Banana|3||1|Y|Y||
--Lemon|2||2|Y|Y||
--Spices|1||3|Y|Y||
--Almonds|3||1|Y|Y||
--Fig|2||1|Y|Y||
--Mango|2||1|Y|Y||
--Papaya|2||1|Y|Y||
--Coconut|2|1|1|Y|Y||
--Dates|2||2|Y|Y||
--Pistachio|2||1|Y|Y||
--Pomegranate|2||1|Y|Y||
--Prickly Pear|2||2|Y|Y||
--Olives|2||2|Y|Y||
--Guava|2||1|Y|Y||
Grape Gathering Camp ||||||NA|
--Grapes|1|||Y|Y||
Grape Picking Camp ||||||NA|
--Grapes|1||1|Y|Y||
Winery ||||||NA|
--Grapes|2||3|Y|Y||
Plant Gathering Camp ||||||NA|
--Cannabis|||1|Y|Y||
--Coca|||1|Y|Y||
--Coffee|||1|Y|Y||
--Cocoa|||1|Y|Y||
--Cotton|||1|Y|Y||
--Incense|||1|Y|Y||
--Sugar|||1|Y|Y||
--Tea|1|||Y|Y||
--Tobbaco|||1|Y|Y||
--Flax|||1|Y|Y||
--Opium|||1|Y|Y||
--Papyrus|||1|Y|Y||
--Resin|||1|Y|Y||
--Peyote|||1|Y|Y||
--Henna|||1|Y|Y||
--Indigo|||1|Y|Y||
--Vanilla|||1|Y|Y||
--Kava|||1|Y|Y||
Plant Picking Camp ||||||NA|
--Cannabis|||2|Y|Y||
--Coca|||2|Y|Y||
--Coffee|||2|Y|Y||
--Cocoa|||2|Y|Y||
--Cotton|||2|Y|Y||
--Incense|||2|Y|Y||
--Sugar|1||1|Y|Y||
--Tea|1||1|Y|Y||
--Tobbaco|||2|Y|Y||
--Flax|||2|Y|Y||
--Opium|||2|Y|Y||
--Papyrus|||2|Y|Y||
--Resin|||2|Y|Y||
--Peyote|||2|Y|Y||
--Henna|||2|Y|Y||
--Indigo|||2|Y|Y||
--Vanilla|||2|Y|Y||
--Kava|||2|Y|Y||
Plantation ||||||NA|
--Cannabis||1|3|Y|Y||
--Coca|||4|Y|Y||
--Coffee|||4|Y|Y||
--Cocoa|1||2|Y|Y||
--Cotton|||4|Y|Y||
--Incense|||4|Y|Y||
--Sugar|1||3|Y|Y||
--Tea|1||3|Y|Y||
--Tobbaco|||4|Y|Y||
--Flax||1|3|Y|Y||
--Opium||1|3|Y|Y||
--Papyrus||1|3|Y|Y||
--Resin||1|2|Y|Y||
--Peyote|||3|Y|Y||
--Henna|||4|Y|Y||
--Indigo|||4|Y|Y||
--Vanilla|||4|Y|Y||
--Kava|||4|Y|Y||
--Rubber||2|2|Y|Y||
Special Stone Workshop ||||||NA|
--Stone||1||Y|Y||
--Obsidian||1||Y|Y||
--Marble||1||Y|Y||
--Clay||1||Y|Y||
--Turquoise|||1|Y|Y||
--Jade|||1|Y|Y||
Quarry ||||||Rocky, All Rock Forms|
--Stone||3||Y|Y||
--Obsidian||1|2|Y|Y||
--Marble||2|2|Y|Y||
--Clay||2|1|Y|Y||
--Turquoise|||3|Y|Y||
--Jade||-2|5|Y|Y||
--Salt||-1|4|Y|Y||
Stone Tools Workshop ||||||Hills, Rocky|
--Gold|||1|Y|Y||
--Silver|||1|Y|Y||
--Copper|||1|Y|Y||
--Amber|||1|Y|Y||
Mine ||||||Hills, Rocky|
--Gold||-1|5|Y|Y||
--Silver||-1|3|Y|Y||
--Copper||1|1|Y|Y||
--Amber||-1|3|Y|Y||
--Iron||2||Y|Y||
--Sulphur|||2|Y|Y||
--Lead||1||Y|Y||
--Runy||-1|4|Y|Y||
--Sapphire||-1|4|Y|Y||
--Diamond||-1|5|Y|Y||
--Platinum|||1|Y|Y||
--Tin||1|1|Y|Y||
Shaft Mine ||||||Hills, Rocky|
--Bauxite||1|1|Y|Y||
--Coal||2||Y|Y||
--Gold||-2|6|Y|Y||
--Silver||-2|4|Y|Y||
--Copper||1|1|Y|Y||
--Amber||-2|4|Y|Y||
--Iron||3||Y|Y||
--Uranium|||3|Y|Y||
--Sulphur|||3|Y|Y||
--Lead||1||Y|Y||
--Runy||-2|5|Y|Y||
--Sapphire||-2|5|Y|Y||
--Diamond||-2|6|Y|Y||
--Platinum|||2|Y|Y||
--Tin||2|1|Y|Y||
Modern Mine ||||||Hills, Rocky|
--Bauxite||1|2|Y|Y||
--Coal||3||Y|Y||
--Gold||-3|8|Y|Y||
--Silver||-3|6|Y|Y||
--Copper||1|2|Y|Y||
--Amber||-2|4|Y|Y||
--Iron||4||Y|Y||
--Uranium|||4|Y|Y||
--Sulphur||1|4|Y|Y||
--Lead||1|1|Y|Y||
--Runy||-3|7|Y|Y||
--Sapphire||-3|7|Y|Y||
--Diamond||-3|8|Y|Y||
--Platinum||1|6|Y|Y||
--Tin||2|2|Y|Y||
--Titanium||3|1|Y|Y||
--Geode||1|2|Y|Y||
Core Mine ||||||Hills, Rocky|
--Bauxite||1|2|Y|Y||
--Coal||2||Y|Y||
--Gold||-4|9|Y|Y||
--Silver||-4|7|Y|Y||
--Copper||2|2|Y|Y||
--Amber||-2|2|Y|Y||
--Iron||4||Y|Y||
--Uranium|||5|Y|Y||
--Sulphur||1|4|Y|Y||
--Lead||1|1|Y|Y||
--Runy||-4|8|Y|Y||
--Sapphire||-4|8|Y|Y||
--Diamond||-4|9|Y|Y||
--Platinum||1|7|Y|Y||
--Tin||2|2|Y|Y||
--Titanium||4|2|Y|Y||
--Geode||1|2|Y|Y||
Mountain Mine ||||||Peaks|
--Bauxite||1|2|Y|Y||
--Coal||1|2|Y|Y||
--Gold||-2|7|Y|Y||
--Silver||-2|5|Y|Y||
--Copper||2|2|Y|Y||
--Iron||4||Y|Y||
--Uranium|||5|Y|Y||
--Sulphur|||3|Y|Y||
--Lead||1|1|Y|Y||
--Runy||-2|6|Y|Y||
--Sapphire||-2|6|Y|Y||
--Diamond||-2|7|Y|Y||
--Platinum|||3|Y|Y||
--Tin||2|1|Y|Y||
--Titanium||3|1|Y|Y||
--Jade||-2|6|Y|Y||
--Marble||2|2|Y|Y||
--Stone||4||Y|Y||
--Obsidian||1|3|Y|Y||
--Turquoise|||4|Y|Y||
Mushroom Gatherer ||||||NA|
--Mushrooms|||2|Y|Y||
Scavenging Camp (Domesticates) ||||||NA|
--Cow|1|||Y|Y||
--Pig|1|||Y|Y||
--Sheep|1|||Y|Y||
--Horse|1|||Y|Y||
--Camel|1|||Y|Y||
--Donkey|1|||Y|Y||
--Llama|1|||Y|Y||
Nomadic Herd ||||||NA|
--Cow|1|1||Y|Y||
--Pig|2|||Y|Y||
--Sheep|1||1|Y|Y||
--Horse|1|1|1|Y|Y||
--Camel|1|1|1|Y|Y||
--Donkey|1||1|Y|Y||
--Llama|1|1||Y|Y||
Pasture ||||||NA|
--Cow|2|2||Y|Y||
--Pig|4|||Y|Y||
--Sheep|2||2|Y|Y||
--Horse|1|2|1|Y|Y||
--Camel|1|2|1|Y|Y||
--Donkey|1||1|Y|Y||
--Llama|1|1|1|Y|Y||
Peat Cutter ||||||Peat Bog|
Thatch Cutter ||||||Sword Grass|
Silk Farm ||||||NA|
--Silk|||3|Y|Y||
Tree Nursery ||||||Grass, Plains, Tundra, Lush, Muddy, Scrub, Rocky, Marsh|
Young Forest ||||||NA|Upgrade into only
Wood Gatherer ||||||Forest, Ancient Forest, Bamboo, Savanna|
--Prime Timber|||1|Y|Y||
Lumber Camp ||||||Forest, Ancient Forest, Bamboo, Savanna|
--Prime Timber||1|1|Y|Y||
Lumbermill ||||||Forest, Ancient Forest, Bamboo, Savanna|
--Prime Timber||2|1|Y|Y||
Treefarm ||||||Forest, Ancient Forest, Bamboo, Savanna, Jungle|
--Prime Timber||2|2|Y|Y||
Hybrid Forest ||||||Forest, Ancient Forest, Bamboo, Savanna, Jungle|
--Prime Timber||2|2|Y|Y||
Geoglyph ||||||Barren, Desert, Salt Flats, Scrub, Rocky|Req. Flatlands, iUnique=2
Moai ||||||Barren, Desert, Lush, Grass, Plains|No Freshwater, iUnique=2
Mesoamerican Temple ||||||Muddy, Marsh, Lush, Grass|iUnique=2
Stone Circle ||||||Tundra, Permafrost, Grass, Plains|No Freshwater, iUnique=2
Pyramids ||||||dunes, Desert, Scrub, Plains, Salt Flats|Req. Flatlands, iUnique=2
Asian Temple ||||||Forest, Ancient Forest, Bamboo, Jungle|Req. Feature, iUnique=2
Ziggarut ||||||Scrub, Rocky, Grass, Plains|Req. Flatlands, iUnique=2
Geothermal Energy Factory ||||||NA|Might be made obsolete
--Geothermal Energy||2|2|Y|Y||
Colony Habitat (Small) ||||||Lunar (Basalt, Plains, Rocky, Barren, Desert), Martian (Ice, Permafrost, Desert, Dunes, Barren, Plains)|Req. Flatlands
Colony Habitat (Medium) ||||||Lunar (Basalt, Plains, Rocky, Barren, Desert), Martian (Ice, Permafrost, Desert, Dunes, Barren, Plains)|Req. Flatlands
Colony Habitat (Large) ||||||Lunar (Basalt, Plains, Rocky, Barren, Desert), Martian (Ice, Permafrost, Desert, Dunes, Barren, Plains)|Req. Flatlands
Colony Habitat (Huge) ||||||Lunar (Basalt, Plains, Rocky, Barren, Desert), Martian (Ice, Permafrost, Desert, Dunes, Barren, Plains)|Req. Flatlands
Colony Hydroponics ||||||Lunar (Basalt, Plains, Rocky, Barren, Desert), Martian (Ice, Permafrost, Desert, Dunes, Barren, Plains)|Req. Flatlands
Colony Manufactory ||||||Lunar (Basalt, Plains, Rocky, Barren, Desert), Martian (Ice, Permafrost, Desert, Dunes, Barren, Plains)|Req. Flatlands
Colony Extraction Facility ||||||Hills|
--Bauxite||1|2|Y|Y||
--Gold||-4|9|Y|Y||
--Silver||-4|7|Y|Y||
--Copper||2|2|Y|Y||
--Iron||4||Y|Y||
--Uranium|||5|Y|Y||
--Sulphur||1|4|Y|Y||
--Lead||1|1|Y|Y||
--Ruby||-4|8|Y|Y||
--Sapphire||-4|8|Y|Y||
--Platinum||1|7|Y|Y||
--Tin||2|2|Y|Y||
--Titanium||5|4|Y|Y||
--Marble||2|2|Y|Y||
--Obsidian|||4|Y|Y||
--CO2 Ice||4|4|Y|Y||
--Helium 3||5|5|Y|Y||
Colony Solar Array ||||||Lunar (Basalt, Plains, Rocky, Barren, Desert), Martian (Ice, Permafrost, Desert, Dunes, Barren, Plains)|Req. Flatlands
Forest Preserve ||||||Forest, Ancient Forest, Bamboo, Savanna, Jungle|
Nature Preserve ||||||Tarpit, Crater, All Rockforms, Natural Wonders|

When looking at bonus yields remember that base bonus yields as listed in BonusInfo is not included. However those base bonus yield values were taken into consideration when make adjustments to the various improvement bonus yields.

0100010 · Mar 12, 2014

DH: What is the functional purpose of the intermediate Young Forest improvement step? I know the intent of the Tree Nursery is to eventually cause a forest to be placed in that tile via reaching the "Plant Forest" upgrade. However there is no difference that I can see in the XML between Tree Nursery and Young Forest, apart from their name and what they upgrade into. Could you not accomplish the same effect by having the Tree Nursery upgrade directly into the Plant Forest with double the upgrade time?

Thunderbrd · Mar 12, 2014

001: Any chance we can put that into a google doc? It's too hard to read through and make notes on this way.

0100010 · Mar 13, 2014

Thunderbrd said:
001: Any chance we can put that into a google doc? It's too hard to read through and make notes on this way.

Feel free to do so, just reply copy & paste into notepad++ and replace the | chars with tabs or such until you can paste it into google docs.

In fact there should probably be a sticky thread dedicated to info tables and/or googledoc spreadsheet links.

Dancing Hoskuld · Mar 13, 2014

0100010 said:
DH: What is the functional purpose of the intermediate Young Forest improvement step? I know the intent of the Tree Nursery is to eventually cause a forest to be placed in that tile via reaching the "Plant Forest" upgrade. However there is no difference that I can see in the XML between Tree Nursery and Young Forest, apart from their name and what they upgrade into. Could you not accomplish the same effect by having the Tree Nursery upgrade directly into the Plant Forest with double the upgrade time?

It is probably from when the two mods were added one by ModifiedA4 gives us the ability to plant forests before the terraforming one. I would have to check again. "Plant Forest" is the improvement that terraforming gives which should be immediately replaced by the feature forest. I think the improvement "Tree Nursery" is supposed to give less that "Young Forest" which gives less than the Forest feature.

0100010 · Mar 13, 2014

Dancing Hoskuld said:
It is probably from when the two mods were added one by ModifiedA4 gives us the ability to plant forests before the terraforming one. I would have to check again. "Plant Forest" is the improvement that terraforming gives which should be immediately replaced by the feature forest. I think the improvement "Tree Nursery" is supposed to give less that "Young Forest" which gives less than the Forest feature.

Currently they don't, they give the same (2 :hammers:

) which is more than a forest.

Dancing Hoskuld · Mar 13, 2014

0100010 said:
Currently they don't, they give the same (2) which is more than a forest.

Is that more than a forest with Lumber Camp? It needs to be worth the ai building it.

Faustmouse · Mar 13, 2014

Does

on a Tree Nursery even make sense at all? You don't chop them, do you?

Dancing Hoskuld · Mar 13, 2014

Where do you think Christmas Trees come from! You do in a young forest as you thin out those you over planted in the first place.

0100010 · Mar 15, 2014

A past flaw in the improvement upgrade process is that, if the improvement can be built on a feature it is not required to remove, but its upgraded version does require the feature's removal, the feature never actually gets removed it it was upgraded into rather than built directly.

This creates some consistency issues between most prehistoric improvements and their latter versions. To solve this Id just like to break the upgrade chain. The prehistoric improvements no longer upgrade to their latter version, but also can be built on nearly any feature without removal requirement. To make better versions of the improvement a worker has to physically built the new version on top of the only one. Since this is a new, direct build action appropriate features can be removed. (Note automated works should still handle this, if the bug options that let you specify which improvements are over to be built over is still functional. so there should not be a micromanagement insertion)

This would also allow merging the two Scavenging camps into one improvement. (since if it doesn't upgrade all animals can be in its bonus struct, and you just built the correct latter version, hunting camp or nomadic herd, later on based on on which resource was there.

Prehistoric improvements that upgrade into versions that don't alter which features it removes (such as the orchard chain) don't need their upgrade chain broken.

Thoughts?

Thunderbrd · Mar 15, 2014

I presume one reason you want to do this is because you want mines to destroy forests. PLEASE go the other way with this. ONLY a strip mine would be damaging to the forest around it. I've lived in deep mining territory and it's forested as all getout. Doesn't make a lick of sense for a mine to take out a forest feature.

0100010 · Mar 16, 2014

Thunderbrd said:
I presume one reason you want to do this is because you want mines to destroy forests. PLEASE go the other way with this. ONLY a strip mine would be damaging to the forest around it. I've lived in deep mining territory and it's forested as all getout. Doesn't make a lick of sense for a mine to take out a forest feature.

Wherever it is that this transition happens there would have to be a break in the upgrade chain. If we included analyzing other non-tree feature types, peat bogs, swamps, etc. There might be more than one break in the upgrade chain, but I'd prefer to avoid that. What I want to most avoid is branching multiple upgrading, parallel mine types based purely on having a forest or not.

It isn't just mines though, special stone -> quarry, plant picker->plantation, grape picker->winery, seed camp->farm, and others all have similar issues.

Thunderbrd · Mar 16, 2014

Sounds like what we really would need to do then is make it so that when an improvement upgrades to a form that takes out the local improvement, it does so at the point it upgrades. I've often thought this but since I was against mines taking out forests and such I never wanted to implement it. Otherwise it seems to be the appropriate way to go don't you think? This would easily address the rest of the examples you give in an appropriate manner I think.

The way I see it with mines is that you'd never have a mine upgrade into a strip mine but a strip mine can upgrade back into the regular mine chain. It can be built outright though(perhaps only next to a river) and is probably going to be more powerful than a normal contemporary mine in the same era, probably just pre-modern mine, but would cause horrendous water pollution.

0100010 · Mar 16, 2014

Thunderbrd said:
Sounds like what we really would need to do then is make it so that when an improvement upgrades to a form that takes out the local improvement, it does so at the point it upgrades. I've often thought this but since I was against mines taking out forests and such I never wanted to implement it. Otherwise it seems to be the appropriate way to go don't you think? This would easily address the rest of the examples you give in an appropriate manner I think.

The way I see it with mines is that you'd never have a mine upgrade into a strip mine but a strip mine can upgrade back into the regular mine chain. It can be built outright though(perhaps only next to a river) and is probably going to be more powerful than a normal contemporary mine in the same era, probably just pre-modern mine, but would cause horrendous water pollution.

At the moment, among my working copies, I've alterted the shaft mine to not upgrade. Modern Mine and Core Mine remove features, and Modern mine get an extra +1 hammer to simulate the forest loss (if it had one, otherwise its just extra). However swamps and Peat bogs still have to be removed and require the proper tech to do so.

If people still want some separate strip mine improvement that upgrades into a modern mine they can do it after all this current set of changes is done.

Thunderbrd · Mar 16, 2014

I can live with that. Particularly if they don't automatically upgrade from shaft mines to modern mines.

It might be nice if we could get a Modern Shaft Mine improvement that doesn't destroy the forest that opens up between Modern Mine and Core Mine and is a possible upgrade for non-modern mine converted shaft mines that still remain about. Core mines would be king of course... HUGE pits in the earth like that do tend to produce a LOT of production material I'd think.

So Modern Mines would represent the kind of mining that basically takes the top off hills and mountains and digs very aggressively into the earth from the surface down - almost more like a quarry than a mine but not for the sake of getting slabs of stone or rock or any other kind of more sophisticated procedure that a quarry would represent but would be, rather, a true power dig.

That would indeed tear the surface of the earth away in enough volume to warrant the loss of a forest.

But it's not the ONLY way to mine. And it would be related to the earlier concept of hydro strip mining which should be a precursor to that line that would run parallel (in tech development) to the Shaft Mine (maybe comes into play a bit later than the shaft mine.) In general we've now outlawed such mines but they sure came in handy during the early World War eras even though we paid a long lasting tremendous ecological penalty for their use. THOSE would certainly destroy the forest on the plot.

In fact, strip, modern and core mines would eventually rip away a hill, turn a peak into a hill, then subsequently eat that hill. Perhaps we should make that happen in game effect. Might even happen for quarries as well over very long periods.

0100010 · Mar 16, 2014

I'm also merging all Burn_(feature) build into a single Burn Vegetation action. All of those have the same Slash & Burn tech requirement, so there is no need for separate build actions. (even though you can specifiy the required tech at the featurestruct level)

I am also merging all Remove_(feature with trees) into a single Remove Vegetation action. (Swamps not included for now) All of these require bronze working (except jungle and mangrove.) Bronze working is when the build action is generally enabled, but the jungle and mangrove feature struct still specify needing Ironworking, so should still work as before.

Although I could merge in Remove Swamp (Swamp and peat bog feature requiring canal systems) via the same method, I am keeping them separate for now just because they are a bit different conceptually.

Dancing Hoskuld · Mar 16, 2014

There are a bunch of slave/forced improvements and builds that are in my Captives mod. They are supposed to mirror the normal worker builds but happen faster and kill the unit. these will also need to be matched up. It may be time to move those slave actions into core. I haven't added "Prisoner of War Camp" or "Refugee Camp" yet.

Somehow other mods have these not showing in the tech tree or pedia or BUG but only on the unit. It would be nice if we could do this but I could not figure it out.

0100010 · Mar 16, 2014

Dancing Hoskuld said:
There are a bunch of slave/forced improvements and builds that are in my Captives mod. They are supposed to mirror the normal worker builds but happen faster and kill the unit. these will also need to be matched up. It may be time to move those slave actions into core. I haven't added "Prisoner of War Camp" or "Refugee Camp" yet.

Somehow other mods have these not showing in the tech tree or pedia or BUG but only on the unit. It would be nice if we could do this but I could not figure it out.

I've been updating those as I've come across them, however apart from the bKill the values are the same, though I cut the iCost in half in some cases for some improvements. You will need to go through them afterwards and make adjustments for the slave/captive versions as you see fit.

Just realized that the feature struct on the Slave Build versions may need to be matched up to changed versions of the features structs on the standard build actions. I'll let you do that too with the other stuff. Hopefully I'll have it all wrapped up soon.

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