Who was the most useless nation during WWII?

Who was the most useless nation during WWII

  • France

    Votes: 46 23.7%
  • Italy

    Votes: 47 24.2%
  • China

    Votes: 11 5.7%
  • Czechs

    Votes: 10 5.2%
  • Poland

    Votes: 9 4.6%
  • Netherlands

    Votes: 5 2.6%
  • Beligum

    Votes: 12 6.2%
  • Switzerland

    Votes: 20 10.3%
  • One of the countries from the British Empire

    Votes: 6 3.1%
  • Other

    Votes: 28 14.4%

  • Total voters
    194
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Originally posted by MrPresident
I am sorry but that is completely wrong. Communism has defined goals and ways in which to achieve them. It has explainations as why these goals should be meet.

But that's a nonsense argument. What is conservatism's "defined goals" in your opinion, then? Every ideology has a "goal". Please don't try and make out that simply because Communism works towards a utopian society, it has a monopoly on ideology, because it does not. You're trying to make out that an ideology has to be a solid, universally agreed upon, unchagerble item, and none of them are. Not even Communism. Fascism is not particular to Italy, Italian fascism is merely the basis for fascist theory and practice, just as Communists draw upon Das Kapital etc. All fascists share some common ideological goals and beliefs, and, contrary to what you say, they do explain why they should be pursued. Democracy is a weak and inneficent system that leads to national stagnation, so the country is best lead by a great leader who embodies the national characteristic, etc. Such as:

-Militant nationalism, proclaiming the racial and cultural superiority of the dominant ethnic group and asserting that group's inherent right to a special dominant position over other peoples in both the domestic and the international order

-The adulation of a single charismatic national leader said to possess near superhuman abilities and to be the truest representation of the ideals of the national culture, whose will should therefore literally be law

-Emphasis on the absolute necessity of complete national unity, which is said to require a very powerful and disciplined state organization (especially an extensive secret police and censorship apparatus), unlimited by constitutional restrictions or legal requirements and under the absolute domination of the leader and his political movement or party

-Militant anti-Communism coupled with the belief in an extreme and imminent threat to national security from powerful and determined Communist forces both inside and outside the country

-Contempt for democratic socialism, democratic capitalism, liberalism, and all forms of individualism as weak, degenerate, divisive and ineffective ideologies leading only to mediocrity or national suicide

-Glorification of physical strength, fanatical personal loyalty to the leader, and general combat-readiness as the ultimate personal virtues

-A sophisticated apparatus for systematically propagandizing the population into accepting these values and ideas through skilled manipulation of the mass media, which are totally monopolized by the regime once the movement comes to power

-A propensity toward pursuing a militaristic and aggressive foreign policy

-Strict regulation and control of the economy by the regime through some form of corporatist economic planning in which the legal forms of private ownership of industry are nominally preserved but in which both workers and capitalists are obliged to submit their plans and objectives to the most detailed state regulation and extensive wage and price controls, which are designed to insure the priority of the political leadership's objectives over the private economic interests of the citizenry. Therefore under fascism most of the more important markets are allowed to operate only in a non-competitive, cartelized, and governmentally "rigged" fashion.

How exactly can you claim that fascism is not an ideology, when all fascist regimes and exponents share many comprehensive and coherent set of basic beliefs about political, economic, social and cultural affairs?

Originally posted by MrPresident
So I think that Nazism probably isn't a sub-strand of fascism but the German equivalent.

Nazism was Hitler's attempts at applying a workable fascist system (influenced by Mussolini's practices and ideas) to Germany, Marxist-leninism was simply Lenin applying Communism to Russia, as you pointed out. What's the difference? They're both attempts to apply a certain type of system based on beliefs by a certain follower of a way of organising society.
 
Originally posted by Hamlet

What is conservatism's "defined goals" in your opinion, then? Every ideology has a "goal".

By definition conservatisms' goal is simply to prevent change. Hence, a conservative in 2001 seeks to preserve policies and institutions which would have been considered radical by a conservative in 1951.
 
What is conservatism's "defined goals" in your opinion

First of all conservatism is not an ideological. It is as Case said the impulse to preserve the status quo. Which is why you can have environmental conservatives such as Greenpeace. Most ideologicals that I can think of have defined goals suchs Anarchy, no government, Capitalism, generation of wealth, religious dictatorship, to serve their God(s) etc.

All fascists share some common ideological goals and beliefs, and, contrary to what you say, they do explain why they should be pursued. Democracy is a weak and inefficent system that leads to national stagnation, so the country is best lead by a great leader who embodies the national characteristic

Actually Italian fascists did not want a personal dictatorship they wanted a dictatorship of the fadcist party. I think that an explaination of why fascist goals should be pursued has more to do with what is good about fascism rather than what is bad about democracy. Remember the communists also thought democracy was a weak and inefficient system. If the fascists wanted a nation run by a single great leader who embodies the national characteristics then why did they hate Stalin and the Soviet Union?

Emphasis on the absolute necessity of complete national unity, which is said to require a very powerful and disciplined state organization (especially an extensive secret police and censorship apparatus), unlimited by constitutional restrictions or legal requirements and under the absolute domination of the leader and his political movement or party

I will again turn to Italy as the founders of fascism to raise some questions about this quote. Italy, although it did have extensive censorship, did not have an extensive secret police (neither did the Nazis as the Gestapo was not as big as is commonly thought). Mussolini and the fascists were limited by constituational restrictions, Italy had a monarchy right up to 1946 and was only ended when the Italians voted to become a republic. Mussolini never absoluted dominated Italy as he had to maintain the support of the king, who could dismiss him at anytime, the elites (and industrialists) and of course the Roman catholic church (which he was forced to buy off but still publicily critized him).

Strict regulation and control of the economy by the regime through some form of corporatist economic planning in which the legal forms of private ownership of industry are nominally preserved but in which both workers and capitalists are obliged to submit their plans and objectives to the most detailed state regulation and extensive wage and price controls, which are designed to insure the priority of the political leadership's objectives over the private economic interests of the citizenry.

This sounds a lot like the fascist system of corporativism which is best described by the famous quote; "Looking for corporativism is like looking for a black cat in a dark room which isn't there".

Therefore under fascism most of the more important markets are allowed to operate only in a non-competitive, cartelized, and governmentally "rigged" fashion.

This reminds me of America at the turn of the century when it had tycoons such as John D. Rockefeller, Andrew Cargnie, J.P. Morgan etc. That sort of economy was not fascism but what was considered capitalism at its best in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

They're both attempts to apply a certain type of system based on beliefs by a certain follower of a way of organising society.

Although Hitler was certainly influenced by Mussolini he did not base his beliefs on those of Mussolini. Mussolini had no set-in-stone beliefs about fascism and that is shown by the fact that his policies constantly changed throughout his regime. I think the main interest of Mussolini was not fascism but in maintaining power. Hitler, on the other hand, certainly had certain fundamental beliefs such as his anti-Jewish views which were certainly not the result of Mussolini.
 
Originally posted by Case
By definition conservatisms' goal is simply to prevent change. Hence, a conservative in 2001 seeks to preserve policies and institutions which would have been considered radical by a conservative in 1951.

I'll take issue at this, if I may. Critics can say that conservatism is simply opportunistic and loose by it's nature, however it's not so. There is more to conservative ethos than simple prevention of change, indeed "change" can often be seen as necessary by some conservatives- take Margaret Thatcher's radical overhaul of many areas of the economy in the 80's. There is much more besides, (Creation of national consciousness through social institutions, etc) which, to make a long story short, I can't be bothered to to paste here. Read a politics textbook.

Also, to MrPresident: If Conservatism isn't an ideology, and Fascism isn't, then what in god's name would you consider to be one? Methinks you need to do some research regarding this.
 
Wow, this threat has really gone off the rails :D

Originally posted by Hamlet

There is more to conservative ethos than simple prevention of change, indeed "change" can often be seen as necessary by some conservatives- take Margaret Thatcher's radical overhaul of many areas of the economy in the 80's. There is much more besides, (Creation of national consciousness through social institutions, etc) which, to make a long story short, I can't be bothered to to paste here. Read a politics textbook.

But once they start making radical changes, conservatives are by definition no longer conservative - they're now reformers (no matter what they call their political party ;) ).
For example, Australia's current Prime Minister John Howard has boasted about being the most conservative leader Australia has ever had. Yet he has persued a radical economic reform agenda, and considers this to be one of his major goals. Hence, he is not a true conservative.
 
Originally posted by Case
But once they start making radical changes, conservatives are by definition no longer conservative - they're now reformers (no matter what they call their political party ;) ).
For example, Australia's current Prime Minister John Howard has boasted about being the most conservative leader Australia has ever had. Yet he has persued a radical economic reform agenda, and considers this to be one of his major goals. Hence, he is not a true conservative.

Conservatives are not opposed to change entirely, full stop. Change only when it's unavoidable is a better definition. Also, you overestimate the importance of keeping things the same to conservatives- if what you're saying were true, then conservatives would be in favour of doing absolutely nothing upon gaining power, and I don't believe any are. It's important, but not that important to them. Especially in the modern era.
 
40 French members showed up to vote for other countries. Amazing. I voted for France.

France has been a worthless country since Napoleon was exiled to Elba. They've shown their belly in every armed conflict since Waterloo, and usually before the shooting really started in earnest.
 
I think most countries at first did not take the war seriously. if you ever watch a program called "World at War" it shows an un biased view for all sides.

The UK - did not act straight away and was caught off guard. Would not bomb German factories because they were private property and might provoke a response. Put full effort in after Dunkirk

France - Never left its own defenses. Bad communications, the CinC made HQ in a place with no radio or telephone - messages sent to and from by motor cycle. Actually waved the invaders into the Capital Paris.

US - Did not commit until December 1941 but then like the UK put full effort into the war.

Italy - Invaded Greece but got caught on the counter attack and the Greeks invaded Italy. Germany helped out the Italians and invaded Greece. The Italian navy suffered heavy losses to the British. Churchill described Italy as the soft under belly of the Axis.

Belgium / Netherlands - Only planned to defend half of the country. Was willing to give the rest for a peace treaty.

Russia - Thought they had secured the borders with a treaty, attacked Finland and got beaten back. Germany saw how bad Russia's army was and invaded. Actually committed worse attrosities than the Germans but this was never mentioned because they were on the allies side. Only declared war on Japan after the Germans were defeated.
 
Ehhhh..... I think you'll find it was Finland the Soviets attacked, Norway was attacked and taken over by Germany.
 
Polaris, I'm going to take issue with a few of your points.

Originally posted by PolarisXP
France - Never left its own defenses. Bad communications, the CinC made HQ in a place with no radio or telephone - messages sent to and from by motor cycle. Actually waved the invaders into the Capital Paris.

Paris was declared an open city because the war was lost, and there would have been no point in fighting over it. Likewise, in early 1942 General Macarthur declared Manilla an open city (which didn't stop the Japanese from bombing it though).

US - Did not commit until December 1941 but then like the UK put full effort into the war.

American rearmament started well before December 1941, and the USN was basically at war with the Germans from mid '41.

Churchill described Italy as the soft under belly of the Axis.

Churchill didn't have a clue about millitary tactics. The Italian campaign was essentially an Allied defeat (heaps of troops employed and casualties for litte purpose)

Belgium / Netherlands - Only planned to defend half of the country. Was willing to give the rest for a peace treaty.

To quote an old military dictum: 'he who defends everything defends nothing'. Belgium and the Netherlands had no hope of holding out against Germany, and were correct in pulling their forces back to fortified areas, and being prepared to swap territory for peace.

Russia - Thought they had secured the borders with a treaty, attacked Finland and got beaten back.
...and then re-invaded and won ;)

BTW, are you the same Polaris who used to post on Apolyton?
 
Churchill didn't have a clue about millitary tactics. The Italian campaign was essentially an Allied defeat (heaps of troops employed and casualties for litte purpose)

Churchill was not a military commander during WWII but he did know something about military tactics. He fought in the Boer war, WWI and was head of the British navy. The only reason the Italian campaign was not a complete success for the allies (I don't know how you can call it a defeat because unless I'm wrong they did liberate the whole of Italy) was because the efficient German defenders. The Italian were useless, they need the Germans to bail them out of Greece, got beaten by the British navy, and were the first part of mainland Europe taken back by the Allies. This is not to say that is was all the fault of the Italians, Mussolini had told Hitler his army would not be ready for war until at least 1943 (they had been at war since 1936, Abyssinia and Spanish civil war).
 
Originally posted by PolarisXP


Belgium / Netherlands - Only planned to defend half of the country. Was willing to give the rest for a peace treaty.


I don't think you can put Belgium and the Netherlands on one line.
Belgium in fact did a great job, they held back the german army for quite a long time (can't remember how long, history lessons are too far back in my history...)
And to say that the Netherlands were only defending half of their country is completely wrong. There was a line of defense near Arnhem which is just across the border as seen from Germany and behind that was the Waterlinie which was a huge piece of land flooded to stop any enemies. It was ineffective as the germans had planes (sure, the Netherlands were completely unprepared for war as WWI had not reached the Netherlands). The Netherlands have always had the strategy of only defending the big cities (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht) while the rest of the country was in the biggest part farmland.
 
Define useless. :)

Under some definitions, I could make a case that the Soviet Union was the more useless, or at least the most inept.

How else can you describe a nation that:

- Pioneered the concept of armored divisions but created huge, unwieldy (around 450 tanks) units. When that didn't work they broke them up into small brigades and scattered them across their front.

- Effectively squelched initiative in junior officers (seeing your superiors shot in droves tends to do that).

- Effectively lobotmized their officer corp, conveniently prior to the war.

- Managed to bumble the initial invasion of Finland despite a huge disparity in forces.

- Ignored plain evidence that Germany was mobilizing for an attack.

And on and on.

Really, even by the end of the war the Red Army could be characterized as a bludgeon rather than a rapier. Sure, Stalin was to blame for much of this, but I don't really care: it's still the Soviet Union. And yes, they did eventually prevail thanks largely to great strategic depth and resources.

Useless depends on your point of view. :)

/bruce
 
Originally posted by DingBat
Define useless. :)

Under some definitions, I could make a case that the Soviet Union
Really, even by the end of the war the Red Army could be characterized as a bludgeon rather than a rapier. Sure, Stalin was to blame for much of this, but I don't really care: it's still the Soviet Union. And yes, they did eventually prevail thanks largely to great strategic depth and resources.

/bruce

Actually, the Red Army at the end of the war was quite an effecient fighting force. Contrary to popular opinion, it was not waves of Red Army units that drove the German's back. The Red Army actually developed valuable tactics, and used them quite effectively from Kursk onward.
The Germans never had good field intelligence, so the Red Army would shift their unit to the point of attack, gaining local numerical superiority. Then, they made effective use of artillery and Katyusha's, and sent in infantry to break the lines, and then the tanks to cause havoc in the rear.
In a ground fight between the Allied and Soviet armies, I would bet on the Soviets.
 
And they were still more the bludgeon than the rapier.

I agree that their doctrine was better developed near the end of the war. However, they still depended on breakthroughs created by massive preparatory bombardments and large scale infantry assaults. As well, many Soviet breakthroughs still ran out of steam due to poor logistical support.

There were a lot of things the Germans could have done to neutralize some of this, but couldn't or didn't implement for a variety of reasons.

Even with their much improved doctrine a lot of what the Soviets did at the end of the war still depended on massive resources.

Cheers,
/bruce
 
Originally posted by MrPresident


Churchill was not a military commander during WWII but he did know something about military tactics. He fought in the Boer war, WWI and was head of the British navy.

If I'm correct, Churchill was a war reporter during the Boer war, was a minister for the navy, rather than a Naval commander and one of his major contributions to WWI was the Gallipoli campaign, which was not a success. His intervention in the early North Africa campaign when he diverted forces to Greece and Crete denied Britain the opportunity to knock the Axis out of Africa 18 months earlier than they did.

He was, however a excellent morale raiser, which was probably the most important thing for the UK in 1940-41, and was popular with the US, which was 2nd
 
Originally posted by smokeyjoe


If I'm correct, Churchill was a war reporter during the Boer war, was a minister for the navy, rather than a Naval commander and one of his major contributions to WWI was the Gallipoli campaign, which was not a success. His intervention in the early North Africa campaign when he diverted forces to Greece and Crete denied Britain the opportunity to knock the Axis out of Africa 18 months earlier than they did.

He was, however a excellent morale raiser, which was probably the most important thing for the UK in 1940-41, and was popular with the US, which was 2nd

Churchill's strengths were very much his dogged determination to fight on and the inspiration he provided to the British people during the darkest days of WW2 - military strategy was definitely not one of his strong points!
 
He was, however a excellent morale raiser, which was probably the most important thing for the UK in 1940-41

Churchill was one of the greatest morale raiser of all-time who can not hear these quotes and want to join the British in their fight for survival.

"I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat."

"Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, This was their finest hour."

"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.''

"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."

"Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender"
 
Just a concuring point on Churchill. Everything said in the last 4-5 posts about him is true to the best of my knowledge. Churchill had a great love of the periphery <sp>. Greece is just one example.

One thing to point out in Churchill's defence, he saw the nature of the coming conflict with the Soviets much more clearly than either Roosevelt or Eisenhower. That is why he favored invasion of the baltics to keep them away from Stalin and also wanted a drive for Berlin.
 
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