Lack of barb training/quests sucks when surrounded by AIs but at least you won't have to travel far to attack AI and your army will be close to your empire in case of (weak) backstab .. ( I consdier weak backstabs the survivable ones and true backstabs - the ones that kill you in 3-5 turns ..)
Honor/Autocracy 3 city Industrial era domination guide
- Thread starter peddroelm
- Start date
Lack of barb training/quests sucks when surrounded by AIs but at least you won't have to travel far to attack AI and your army will be close to your empire in case of (weak) backstab .. ( I consdier weak backstabs the survivable ones and true backstabs - the ones that kill you in 3-5 turns ..)
The saying is about a picture, a static image, not a motion picture!
Please consider a text outline of the strategy. Thanks!
consentient
Domination!
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2014
- Messages
- 3,357
Please consider watching Peddro's informative, entertaining and hilarious videos. Thanks!
I am sure they are above average, but videos are not a good format for everyone.
If you take into account the fact that every video is composed of a succession of still images, if every one of those is worth a thousand words, the whole video must be worth an astronomical number!
Agreed that text is better for some, but I learned things from peddroelm's videos that I could not have learned from text. Probably chief among them is that I am useless at Civilization ... And probably always will be.
They are hilarious, too. Worth watching just for the entertainment value.
Fluphen Azine
What is Fluphen Azine?
I have been trying this for a few days now always Oxfording Industry first. You suggest going to Artillery first? What are the usual turn times for these two in most of your games? What is the usual Science Cut Off point? Is it after Edu and getting up Unis? Should you have 3 Unis or just one in the Capital? Do you try to pop any GS's or do you just pop all GMs? Are you always able to get to Ideology first when teching Artillery before Industry? What is your target Population for your Capital and Expos before you stop growth?
Do you find yourself making detours to BW or Sailing before you research Education? What is the tech path after Education. Do you Beeline Machinery? Beeline Artillery after that and go up to Industry? What is the next tech path after that... Rifles I presume? Im guessing after that it should not matter since the game should be about wrapped up?
I find it easy enough to save up gold but sometimes I feel like I am wasting some of it buying Hexes in my cities. What are the do's and do not's of using your gold before it starts to roll in after Commerce?
Do you ever get into building Barracks and other buildings into Miltary Academy?
I also find that if you can get up a Religion and use Holy Warriors it is a very big help at the start? What are your thoughts on this?
What is your usual Autocracy Path/Choices or is it always the same? Do you try to win WF or just get the 350pts for a free Policy or do you not even worry about the WF?
I'll preface this by remarking I haven't played Civ V for several months now.. So I'll probably not remember enough to answer all your questions accurately ..
"I have been trying this for a few days now always Oxfording Industry first. You suggest going to Artillery first? "
Think artillery first is better most of the time (especially if rough terrain // not a lot of highly promoted xbows//AIs got to cavalry already)
"What are the usual turn times for these two in most of your games? What is the usual Science Cut Off point?"
Don't remember sorry ..
"Is it after Edu and getting up Unis? Should you have 3 Unis or just one in the Capital?"
Will definitely need some universities ..(the more the better, even go astronomy for observatory if high pop city near mountain)
"Do you try to pop any GS's or do you just pop all GMs?"
Will need to pop GS to get artillery faster time..
"Are you always able to get to Ideology first when teching Artillery before Industry?"
Nope.. Sometimes deity AIs get ideology first.. Worst case scenario - multiple AIs get autocracy and I lose free social policies.
"What is your target Population for your Capital and Expos before you stop growth?"
I don't really do that.. When I got the endgame tech and disable science - start pushing gold/production - then I stop growth ..
"Do you find yourself making detours to BW or Sailing before you research Education?"
Yes.
"What is the tech path after Education. Do you Beeline Machinery? Beeline Artillery after that and go up to Industry? What is the next tech path after that... Rifles I presume? Im guessing after that it should not matter since the game should be about wrapped up?"
Sometimes I go machinery before education and try to steal education with first spy..If I try to mix in other unit types (minutemen // ..etc) education first ..
Chemistry, Military science, Artillery, Industrialization, Biology, landship tech, combined arms(tank tech)
"I find it easy enough to save up gold but sometimes I feel like I am wasting some of it buying Hexes in my cities. What are the do's and do not's of using your gold before it starts to roll in after Commerce?"
I buy a lot of city HEXes myself ..University/Observatory in capital(high pop cities) are good ways to spend gold .. Cultural city state allies are also worth the gold..Strong army neighboring CS is also high priority (they could do massive damage if you enemies get them)
"Do you ever get into building Barracks and other buildings into Military Academy?"
Core aspect of this strategy (allows you to ignore AI ideology and pick autocracy) ..
"I also find that if you can get up a Religion and use Holy Warriors it is a very big help at the start? What are your thoughts on this?"
Never tried it .. The shrine costs hammers and is seldom a guarantee for a religion so I usually skip it ..
"What is your usual Autocracy Path/Choices or is it always the same?"
Not the same.. Depends how much culture // many free autocracy policies you get.. Sometimes you must make due with mobilization alone.. Some perks are situational (might need the doubling of strategical resources on some maps (oil))
"Do you try to win WF or just get the 350pts for a free Policy or do you not even worry about the WF?"
Always propose it ASAP for diplo boost.. Always 350 hammers only for free social policy ..
reddishrecue
Some dude on civfans
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2009
- Messages
- 6,212
I've had success with the honor/autocracy with different civilization but only in the emperor difficulty.. Immortal and deity have been a real challenge to me.. I once almost got things done with Aztec in immortal difficulty, but I was stuck when the ai started to shoot down all my defenses with great war bombers and eventually took away most cities I had conquered.. not even the arsenals were able to defend against the bombers.. I was so far away from balistics or flight
consentient
Domination!
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2014
- Messages
- 3,357
This post is intended as a summary of everything Ive learned from a few months of solid warmongering. Im no master, but can win DomV on Deity around 75% of the time, now, I feel.
Main idea: I've come to feel that the key to Domination on Deity is maintaining a unit edge. Science really isn't important as long as you have the edge.
There are several factors that Ive identified as playing into this:-
1. Your own tech: You dont have to be the tech leader, but you need to arrive at key military techs in good time. What constitutes a good time varies, but really you should always aim to get there as soon as possible. This means founding 3 cities, in good locations that have food, and growing them as much as possible. Granaries, water mills, aqueducts are all important and should not be neglected.
2. Food: If your starting location does not have sufficient food, youre gonna have a hard time on Deity pursuing any VC, but diplo can still be achieved without having the highest population or the tech lead. I would argue that although it IS possible that you will be able to take the nearest capital and have that compensate for a poor food start, I still think DomV on Deity is situational and should not be attempted on all starts, nor should Honor-Commerce-Autocracy be used on all maps. Peddro himself showed this on DCL #9 when he went Liberty instead.
3. AI tech: Sometimes they go a lot faster than others. The same factors that play into Human tech speed obviously affect the AI, too, but they also tend to be a bit odd and inconsistent, and make much poorer decisions. Sometimes you can be in the middle of a Pangaea sweep and its obvious no one has tech-ed enough to be a real threat, and youre gonna be able to take the whole thing down with XBs and Horses. At other times, especially with Continents, there is some tech runaway 12 techs ahead of you, and you will be lucky if you can kill him before the Modern era. Be flexible and try not to underestimate or overestimate what you need to do to find the edge. Sometimes you build a huge army and when you get to the city, the AI has medieval era troops that stand no chance against your Industrial. It would have been better to divide the army and send some to another target. Conversely, sometimes a runaway has a better army than you and you will need to overwhelm them with numbers and human cleverness. If your units can kill their army and besiege their city without dying, you have the edge. If you need to be really careful with unit placement and you might lose some troops, youve probably lost the edge.
4. Terrain: most Pangaea are quite easy to sweep. If you keep some GGs, you can use them to break mountain passes, hilly areas, jungle, river crossings and the GW. What you cant use them for is to replace a navy. Sometimes you WILL need one, so you should build or annex a coastal city where you can make ships. The terrain will also determine the optimal order for capital sniping. I am still working on this aspect, and I think its very easy to overlook the importance of who to attack next, as this determines diplo and trading and so much else. If it takes a long time to get somewhere, you might lose the edge on the way.
5. Momentum: Any time you spend recovering or trying to catch up in tech is almost lethal to your DomV attempt. If you are going full-out war from the Classical or Medieval eras, then catching up in tech is rarely possible with 1 or 2 good AIs in the game. By the time you are at their door, if you waited, they will slaughter you. So keep pressing all the time, use every resource you have. Dont worry about negative GPT or happiness as long as you can keep the train moving. Aim to finish the game before T250, and really, I think, every turn over T200 makes the game 1% more difficult.
Main idea: I've come to feel that the key to Domination on Deity is maintaining a unit edge. Science really isn't important as long as you have the edge.
There are several factors that Ive identified as playing into this:-
1. Your own tech: You dont have to be the tech leader, but you need to arrive at key military techs in good time. What constitutes a good time varies, but really you should always aim to get there as soon as possible. This means founding 3 cities, in good locations that have food, and growing them as much as possible. Granaries, water mills, aqueducts are all important and should not be neglected.
2. Food: If your starting location does not have sufficient food, youre gonna have a hard time on Deity pursuing any VC, but diplo can still be achieved without having the highest population or the tech lead. I would argue that although it IS possible that you will be able to take the nearest capital and have that compensate for a poor food start, I still think DomV on Deity is situational and should not be attempted on all starts, nor should Honor-Commerce-Autocracy be used on all maps. Peddro himself showed this on DCL #9 when he went Liberty instead.
3. AI tech: Sometimes they go a lot faster than others. The same factors that play into Human tech speed obviously affect the AI, too, but they also tend to be a bit odd and inconsistent, and make much poorer decisions. Sometimes you can be in the middle of a Pangaea sweep and its obvious no one has tech-ed enough to be a real threat, and youre gonna be able to take the whole thing down with XBs and Horses. At other times, especially with Continents, there is some tech runaway 12 techs ahead of you, and you will be lucky if you can kill him before the Modern era. Be flexible and try not to underestimate or overestimate what you need to do to find the edge. Sometimes you build a huge army and when you get to the city, the AI has medieval era troops that stand no chance against your Industrial. It would have been better to divide the army and send some to another target. Conversely, sometimes a runaway has a better army than you and you will need to overwhelm them with numbers and human cleverness. If your units can kill their army and besiege their city without dying, you have the edge. If you need to be really careful with unit placement and you might lose some troops, youve probably lost the edge.
4. Terrain: most Pangaea are quite easy to sweep. If you keep some GGs, you can use them to break mountain passes, hilly areas, jungle, river crossings and the GW. What you cant use them for is to replace a navy. Sometimes you WILL need one, so you should build or annex a coastal city where you can make ships. The terrain will also determine the optimal order for capital sniping. I am still working on this aspect, and I think its very easy to overlook the importance of who to attack next, as this determines diplo and trading and so much else. If it takes a long time to get somewhere, you might lose the edge on the way.
5. Momentum: Any time you spend recovering or trying to catch up in tech is almost lethal to your DomV attempt. If you are going full-out war from the Classical or Medieval eras, then catching up in tech is rarely possible with 1 or 2 good AIs in the game. By the time you are at their door, if you waited, they will slaughter you. So keep pressing all the time, use every resource you have. Dont worry about negative GPT or happiness as long as you can keep the train moving. Aim to finish the game before T250, and really, I think, every turn over T200 makes the game 1% more difficult.
Very nice and helpful summary consentient! I have just started using this strategy at Immortal, since Dom victories have been rare for me at that level. It is fun way to play, and so far feels like it is just as reliable as 4 city Tradition for SV.
consentient
Domination!
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2014
- Messages
- 3,357
I actually think you'll have a lot more luck with it at Deity than Immortal, since the caravan leech will actually be game-changing. On Immortal, there's very little reason to go Honor rather than Liberty, IMO.
That is encouraging! I am working my way up to Deity. I can already win pretty reliable at Immortal, but not so much by Dom. The point of going Honor is more for the practice and interest, not optimal play.
What is the caravan leech? Pillaging trade routes? (Which I do plenty of.) It has been very interesting that for most of my Honor/Commerce games my gpt is in the red -- but I have more gold than ever!
What is the caravan leech? Pillaging trade routes? (Which I do plenty of.) It has been very interesting that for most of my Honor/Commerce games my gpt is in the red -- but I have more gold than ever!
consentient
Domination!
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2014
- Messages
- 3,357
What I mean is that Honor has a lot less early growth and science than Tradition, and maybe even less than Liberty, so having all trade routes bringing in beakers is crucial, given that all-out war is delayed so that the troops can be boot camped.
I think that if you can find the time to watch Peddro's DCL #2 VidLP, at least until he's taken the Dutch, you will see exactly how this strategy works. It's only a couple of hours.
I think that if you can find the time to watch Peddro's DCL #2 VidLP, at least until he's taken the Dutch, you will see exactly how this strategy works. It's only a couple of hours.
I hope it's ok to get this thread back up, but I think it's an important one. I tried the strategy two times and I still have no idea how to do it. Some questions:
- you said to wait for #110 to go to war. At that point (~115) I was able to get Education. And I had a bunch of Comp Bows, but Xbows were still 20 turns away. So I tried attacking with Comps and not a chance, I got destroyed by ~10+ AI Spearmen, Swordmen and Comps.
So should I wait until Xbows? I wasn't able to tech faster.
- how the heck do you end the game at ~200 when you start your war at ~110? How do you beat 7 opponent in 90 turns? That's a capital every 12 turns. Sometimes it takes 12 turns just to get to the opponent on Pangea, without firing a single shot.
- what exactly is the benefit of honor? Is it just the Gold from the finisher and the 33% upgrade costs? They are huge, no doubt. But all the other stuff... Flanking for melees... meh... free General.. average, you'll get one soon anyways.. 50% more XP.. cool, but you only need 4-5 ranks to be godlike and if you use a CS as a training dummy 50% is not really needed. Sure +1 Happiness +2 Culture is great! But tradition just gives a lot more.
Compared to Traditions "boost everything everywhere policies" it seems to me like you are weakening yourself a bit with Honor. Basically Honor just gives gold.
I know that your strategy is great. I just do not understand why. I tried to watch the vids but watching 6+ hours is really not my cup of tea...
By the way, I play on Immortal and not on Deity. But I assume it's also working there?
- you said to wait for #110 to go to war. At that point (~115) I was able to get Education. And I had a bunch of Comp Bows, but Xbows were still 20 turns away. So I tried attacking with Comps and not a chance, I got destroyed by ~10+ AI Spearmen, Swordmen and Comps.
So should I wait until Xbows? I wasn't able to tech faster.
- how the heck do you end the game at ~200 when you start your war at ~110? How do you beat 7 opponent in 90 turns? That's a capital every 12 turns. Sometimes it takes 12 turns just to get to the opponent on Pangea, without firing a single shot.
- what exactly is the benefit of honor? Is it just the Gold from the finisher and the 33% upgrade costs? They are huge, no doubt. But all the other stuff... Flanking for melees... meh... free General.. average, you'll get one soon anyways.. 50% more XP.. cool, but you only need 4-5 ranks to be godlike and if you use a CS as a training dummy 50% is not really needed. Sure +1 Happiness +2 Culture is great! But tradition just gives a lot more.
Compared to Traditions "boost everything everywhere policies" it seems to me like you are weakening yourself a bit with Honor. Basically Honor just gives gold.
I know that your strategy is great. I just do not understand why. I tried to watch the vids but watching 6+ hours is really not my cup of tea...
By the way, I play on Immortal and not on Deity. But I assume it's also working there?
consentient
Domination!
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2014
- Messages
- 3,357
Peddro is a pretty infrequent poster on CFC these days, so I hope no-one minds if I take a shot at answering these questions for you. I agree this is an important thread. It changed my whole approach to Civ 5.
Turn 110 is not some golden rule. You need to attack when you have the edge. This will depend on a whole number of different factors. Also, I'm not saying that you COULD have tech-ed faster. Sometimes the dirt is really bad. But with most starts and good decision-making, you should be able to get XBs a LOT earlier.
In my own games, I actually use Archers and CBs a lot more than Peddro. Sometimes you can take people out with units earlier than XBs, but you have to do it at the appropriate time. e.g. T55-70 for CBs, T25-55 for Archers.
With Honor, your troops should be able to kill every unit the AI has in a few turns, in most cases; then a couple more turns taking the city's health down. Then move on. And choose the order of capital sweep well. And choose the best approach routes. And build a 2nd or even a 3rd army and conduct multiple simultaneous wars.
The Honor finisher is huge. Watch the last 50-60 turns of one of Peddro's games and count how much money he makes from kills. The happiness and culture is very good. The upgrade costs and XP are immense. All things considered, Honor is a great tree.
Not so. Tradition gives superior science from T100-250+, but as Peddro has identified, there is a cut off point beyond which science just doesn't matter.
I know that your strategy is great. I just do not understand why. I tried to watch the vids but watching 6+ hours is really not my cup of tea...
Shame. It really is the best way to learn. Watching one of them all the way through should be sufficient. It gives an overview of build order and how the general strategy works. Peddro's videos show excellent decision making and explanation.
It certainly works, but isn't quite as effective because you can't leech as much science of the AI.
I will try to write a fuller write-up for my next Honor run and post it back here.
In the Dutch video he wins on turn 287. There are actually 27 videos, so it's a lot more than six hours!
I also have trouble getting the Honour strategy to work. I've usually done better with Liberty. Don't know why.
Edit: btw, he doesn't claim to win around turn 200 -- he wrote that he finishes tech-ing around t200, with Navigation or some other, and then sells science buildings before pushing on to finish the game.
I also have trouble getting the Honour strategy to work. I've usually done better with Liberty. Don't know why.
Edit: btw, he doesn't claim to win around turn 200 -- he wrote that he finishes tech-ing around t200, with Navigation or some other, and then sells science buildings before pushing on to finish the game.
consentient
Domination!
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2014
- Messages
- 3,357
What problems have you had mbbcam?
Thanks for your answer, maybe I'll have to sit throught the videos. Which one do you recommend? The American one?
So does the strategy involves an all-or-nothing approach at ~200? I mean, selling your Universities.. why would you do that? This means you either win or the game is over. I am not that sure if want to do this. Thing is, I love using Bombers, Carriers and stuff. Is this strategy only viable if you win around that time?
So does the strategy involves an all-or-nothing approach at ~200? I mean, selling your Universities.. why would you do that? This means you either win or the game is over. I am not that sure if want to do this. Thing is, I love using Bombers, Carriers and stuff. Is this strategy only viable if you win around that time?
consentient
Domination!
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2014
- Messages
- 3,357
Not at all. You don't have to sell the universities. The strategy in no way depends on it. It just speeds up the win. More gold = more units = faster conquest. With Mobilisation, Big Ben, Mercantilism, Professional Army and Barracks/Armory/Military Academy, you can buy the best troops for mega cheap prices, use them to kill AI troops, which earns gold, and the cycle repeats.
Sometimes I sell unis to speed things up. Sometimes not. It's not the most crucial element of this strategy.
And yes, I think the best video is the DCL #2 America one. What Peddro does on that is perfect.
Sometimes I sell unis to speed things up. Sometimes not. It's not the most crucial element of this strategy.
And yes, I think the best video is the DCL #2 America one. What Peddro does on that is perfect.
It's a good question! I've been trying to analyse this myself, and I don't find it easy to come up with explanations. However, it seems to me that the theory is much easier than the practice.
The strategy is apparently straightforward -- it is all written down and easy to understand. But, of course, every game is unique. Every single turn involves a problem that has to be solved, a decision to be taken. And herein lies the difficulty, I believe.
I suspect that good players are capable of holding a large number of factors in their head, together with a large number of ideas about how to solve the problems, and they are capable of maintaining a clear vision of the objectives and their importance relative to each other. They can probably balance short-term advantages against long-term advantages and know what to do in any situation. As you said somewhere, multi-tasking is very important in this game.
I am certainly poor at multi-tasking. I get fixated on one thing and forget to pay attention to others. This is particularly true when I'm in a fight. The anxiety of trying to fight well takes away all my attention to other things.
Another characteristic I've observed is that I'm too passive. I find this extremely hard to break. (Which is not surprising -- I'm like that in "real life", too.) You speak about needing to have the edge, and I usually get the impression that I haven't got it! So I wait ...
However, I'm beginning to realise the importance of caravans to help science. In my latest game, I'm not quite so far behind in science, which is certainly a result of getting the caravans up quicker, and having close neighbours to send them to. (Probably the worst scenario for this strategy is being isolated in hilly, mountainous, or jungle terrain.)
On a few occasions I've found myself in the situation that I've taken the Honour opener, but subsequent scouting has shown that the map is not really suited to this strategy (sometimes you get a culture ruin really early and have to decide before you know much about the map).
I suppose one of the things about Liberty is that it gives more room for my rather timid personality. With this Honour strategy you have to be very confident about going to war, and you have to be able to do several things at the same time. You also have to be very good at judging the right time to attack, and which target to go for. My tendency to think "not yet" doesn't help.
But I will continue to plug away, because I would like to learn to do it better. If I could get over the target fixation I think it would help. It's a long job ...
One of the things that made Napoleon a great general was that he was able to think through all the scenarios and come up with plans for each of them, so that he could swap from one to another if things changed. I'm the opposite!
And thanks for asking -- I'd be delighted to receive any advice you can give.
