How to deal with Ideology Unhappiness

adcarrymaokai said:

Those are considered National Wonders?

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I want to know the same thing! It would make Universal Healthcare 50% stronger! I also forgot NVC, NIA, and Grande Temple in my mental count.

I just tried this in my current game and I went from -5 to +3 (global happiness) by picking the tenet.

consentient said:

You know what, I'll admit I'm hazy on this. I just think it's good that my spy has less of a chance of dying

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Less than zero? Spies that fail to swing a CS election are not killed! But FWIW, a tenet that helped with CS coups would be very nice, but none of them do that AFAIK.

@IronfighterXXX

"It's 25% more science from factories, but in reality due to other modifiers it's only about 10%."

absolutely correct, I got my numbers wrong, it definitely is 25%, not 33%. would really love to see some theorycrafting on what'll end up giving you more science in the long run: the straight up boost from order or the mid to lategame growth bonus plus improved academies from freedom.

why would freedom get more GS, though? assuming you are working max specialists, Order will grow slower but still produce GS at the same rate, no? or are you referring to the fact that Order will faith-buy GE rather than GS lategame (which means order will end up with 2-4 bulbs less, something among those lines)

One thing to consider is how many tenets you actually plan to take, and 3 first tier tenets is pretty typical for science, diplo, and domination. 4 is reasonable for culture. After that, there are usually some social policies to chase that will buff my empire more and additional tenets are more of a bonus than a requirement.

The food bonus from Freedom comes early, and directly translates to more growth and science from population. If you save your game before Ideology and compare an Order and Science finish, you'll be able to see that your Order civ stagnated in growth relative to your Freedom civ.

If you boil it down to its core, a science game is a simple integration problem. Discounts and city penalty aside, you need X science to finish the game. Late game bulbs contribute a large percentage of the total science you need. 10 bulbs gives you 80 turns worth of your maximum science. I'm just guessing, but I'm pretty sure the bulbs would fill the first 2/3 of the tree if you had their value to start. With Freedom you spend your faith on scientists instead of engineers. After that it's just a matter of matter and gold and hammers. Unless the world is on fire and you're in the thick of it, you can get all the gold you could ever need late game from sea trade routes. Even without trying for the commerce buffs and buying everything, building boosters and buying 2-3 parts to finish is fairly straight forward.

With a few notable exceptions (Internet, ToA), all multipliers add together. The factory science bonus is added with everything else. That's also what makes Freedom's production bonus for military units even weaker than it first appears.

Edit: the bonus to academies is marginal, and not where Freedom gets it science advantage from. That particular tenet is much stronger for landmarks and a culture win.

I've played a ton of Order games, and the production bonus is so good that I typically only use one GE on a part (last one, of course). So my number of faith GS is the same, typically. If I go Tradition I may buy one extra GE for a late wonder.

Volcanon said:

Also Kremlin is better than Statue of Liberty

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Sorry but no, it's not. I simply can't think of a scenario in which I'd rather have Kremlin over SoL

Volcanon said:

Kremlin is better than Statue of Liberty

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I'm not sure you'll find many people to agree with you. Kremlin is overkill for a DomV, totally unnecessary. Prora is better but Autocracy has the most happiness anyway. SoL is objectively the best ideology wonder for how much it makes victory easier.

beetle said:

I want to know the same thing! It would make Universal Healthcare 50% stronger! I also forgot NVC, NIA, and Grande Temple in my mental count.

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Yes, guilds are national wonders for the purposes of UH and the Tradition policy (Aristocracy?).

I just tried this in my current game and I went from -5 to +3 (global happiness) by picking the tenet.

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How many did you have in the cap? The best test to see how much you can get is to not build any of them, then get to UH and build them all one after one to see how much you get. I'm 95% sure that my list is correct.

Less than zero? Spies that fail to swing a CS election are not killed! But FWIW, a tenet that helped with CS coups would be very nice, but none of them do that AFAIK.

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Yeah, you're right. I've been confusing it with coups all this time, which isn't surprising because I most often buy them all when I'm swimming in gold.

Nigel_Tufnel2 said:

I've played a ton of Order games, and the production bonus is so good that I typically only use one GE on a part (last one, of course). So my number of faith GS is the same, typically. If I go Tradition I may buy one extra GE for a late wonder.

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That's a valid point, and to be fair it's fairly common to have enough faith for a GE and as many scientists as possible. The two were designed to be balanced. I prefer super specialists, and I think Freedom is more robust to map randomness. The two end games play out differently though, and with Freedom I launch about 5 turns after I finish Apollo most games. You only need two turns.

Like I previously said, building SS parts using Order's super factories feels more immersive, buying them all in one go feels like cheating. Unless capitalism paid child laborers. Wait, that's even worse!

I agree with consentient, Order simply kinda sucks if you've been playing well.
The flat bonuses are only big when your cities are many but completely underdeveloped (think China 50 years ago); something like 8 cities all in their early teens or even smaller by Modern maybe and sitting on 3 happiness. (in which case Freedom would do absolutely nothing for you)

Which would mean you were playing lousily to begin with, and I assume all players on here who play deity know better.

Sure, Order is better than Freedom for direct conquering (arsenal of democracy is such a huge production boost but Freedom has trouble staying happy once you've conquered a lot of cities), but then we have Autocracy.... (the tree that allows Oda or Shaka to stay in the green despite a carpet of cities)...

Mind you picking Order for spaceflight pioneers, then switching to Freedom seems a good plan if you are swimming in culture or are Poland (as long as you are sure you will be able to switch... but if you are swimming in culture anyway, chances are you won't feel pressure so you can't switch)

Having all of my government contractors deliver their parts on time is just good engineering project management. The government scientists and engineers do all the system level design and integration work, contracting out the production and component level designs to suppliers. It's even better when Big Ben and Mercantilism help me keep costs down with improved oversight and favorable contract negotiations.

consentient said:

Yes, guilds are national wonders for the purposes of UH and the Tradition policy (Aristocracy?).

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Citation please?

How many did you have in the cap?

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I had 8 NW plus the 3 guilds and palace. The happiness buff was 8, not 12, just what I expected. I can post a save if you like.

The best test to see how much you can get is to not build any of them, then get to UH and build them all one after one to see how much you get.

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Waiting on NC for ideologies to unlock? Then hope to notice a +1 Happy between turns as NW come on line one at a time?? Versus just paying attention to the happy count before and after picking UH??? Please consider posting a save where picking UH gets you a +15 bump! (In the meantime, I will be keeping an eye out for Freedom's production buff when building guilds.)

Yeah, you're right. I've been confusing it with coups all this time, which isn't surprising because I most often buy them all when I'm swimming in gold.

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So what are you doing with your spies then? Once stealing techs is no longer an option? One in the cap, maybe one in another high-science city. What of the others?

My spies get assigned to CSs when SV and become diplomats when CV and DiV

beetle said:

Citation please?

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Not sure what you mean.

Something like this...?

From: http://www.carlsguides.com/strategy/civilization5/socialpolicies/tradition.php

Aristocracy: +15% Production when building Wonders and +1 Happiness for every 10 Citizens in a City.
Tips and Strategies for this Policy: Addition of Happiness is not fractional, so you will only see this +1 Happiness appear for every 10 Citizens. As each population adds 1 Unhappiness, this will offset that by 10%. This is particularly potent in smaller empires, along with the other benefits of Tradition, particularly because really wide empires will not have enough happiness to see population rise beyond 20 until very late in the game and get to 10 much later. The Wonder construction bonus counts throughout the entire game, unlike that from the Pantheon Belief or Marble. 'Wonders' refers to both National and World Wonders, so it will help you get out key buildings like the Artists' guild faster as well.

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From: http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Artists'_guild_(Civ5)

In Brave New World, Great Artists are produced in a new way - not through the generic specialists placed in your Cultural buildings (Amphitheater, Opera House, etc.), but solely through the Artists' Guild, a new National Wonder.

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From: http://www.carlsguides.com/strategy/civilization5/greatpeople/greatartist.php

Great Artists can only be generated through the Artist's Guild National Wonder which gives +2 GPP toward a Great Artist.

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From:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=490854

National Wonders

- Artist Guild; 1 Great Artist Points; has slots for two specialist which can also create Great Artist Points
- East India Company; Must have built a Market in all Cities. The cost goes up the more cities there are in the empire. Trade routes other players make to a city with an East India Company will generate an extra 4 Gold for the city owner and the trade route owner gains an additional 2 Gold for the trade route.; Replaces National Treasury
- National Visitor's Center; Must have built a Hotel in all Cities. The cost goes up the more cities there are in the empire. 100% of the Culture from World Wonders, Natural Wonders, and Improvements (Landmarks, Moai, Chateau) is added to the Tourism output of the city. Tourism output from Great Works +100%.
- Musician Guild; 3 Great Musician Points; has slots for two specialist which can also create Great Musician Points
- Writers Guild; 2 Great Writers Points; has slots for two specialist which can also create Great Writers Points

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As for...

I will be keeping an eye out for Freedom's production buff when building guilds.

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I don't see why you're not getting that buff.

So what are you doing with your spies then? Once stealing techs is no longer an option? One in the cap, maybe one in another high-science city. What of the others?

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I'm not sure what it means about stealing tech not being an option. I stop spying once my spies are levelled, and set them into the CS. Couping my way to total domination. I only put my spies in my own cities when all CS are allied. I think CS are a much bigger part of my strategy than other players, who seem to neglect them. Allied CS = more or less MY city, especially with Scholasticism

consentient said:

Something like this...?

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Yes, thanks! Exactly what I was hoping for. I have seen other mistakes in both Carl’s Guide and Wikia. This page is a little bit more nuanced:
http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Wonders_(Civ5)#National_Wonders

In Brave New World, three guilds were introduced. They are actually a mix between a building and a national wonder, in that they don't need a prerequisite building in every city, but only one of each can exist in a single civilization.

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Please post a save from the beginning of the turn where picking the Universal Healthcare tenet results in +15 happy.

I don't see why you're not getting that buff.

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I meant the Aristocracy buff from Tradition (not Freedom), but I think you figured that out. And I am probably getting it, I just never though to look.

I stop spying once my spies are levelled, and set them into the CS. Couping my way to total domination.

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I also assign leveled spies to CS. I favor elections over coupes as I cannot bear losing leveled spies. I agree that CS allies are extremely valuable.

Well I don't have a save for that turn handy. But I'm not the one who doubts that it works. The onus is on you to test it, brother

Put it this way...if you're not getting 15 yet you build all the NW then I don't know why not. I don't have the evidence you seek to hand, but going by memory, taking UH has usually given me a huge chunk, and I think 15 has been the case several times.

As for Aristocracy, I remember checking that personally when I finally started playing Tradition sometimes. It does count towards guilds.

Anyway, my original reason for posting was that Freedom and Autocracy don't have happiness problems provided you go Tall and Wide, respectively.

Could Universal Healthcare work differently for Freedom than Order?

consentient said:

Well I don't have a save for that turn handy.

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I would not expect so. Just double check please the next time it comes up and report back.

But I'm not the one who doubts that it works. The onus is on you to test it, brother

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Yes, which I did, and got the happy I expected, about half of what you said. (But Ironworks, EIC, and Grande Temple were not in cap.)

But I tried again with Venice and Freedom. I have 6 NW and then the 3 guilds and the palace. Global Happy went up by 10, not 6! I am going to watch more closely...

As for Aristocracy, I remember checking that personally when I finally started playing Tradition sometimes. It does count towards guilds.

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Yes, thanks for pointing that out!

I just played Freedom, and the Guilds don't seem to give happiness, and neither does Palace.