The Deity Challenge Lineup - Game # 3 - Persia
- Thread starter DingleBirdy
- Start date
@kb27787
Well i did go liberty/commerce, so no GE buying sadly and from the point i noticed he was able to dish out a CV is was far too late...
Unfortunately i have no satellites, so i dont know if he conquered his completed continent but i know he whiped Alexander off the map and conquered big chunks of Kamehameha.
He even did finish Aesthetics very early when i reviewed the saves i did throughout the game and had a tourism output which was enormous...
Another interesting fact is, that he did not meet anyone from my continent until the WC started...
Well i did go liberty/commerce, so no GE buying sadly and from the point i noticed he was able to dish out a CV is was far too late...
Unfortunately i have no satellites, so i dont know if he conquered his completed continent but i know he whiped Alexander off the map and conquered big chunks of Kamehameha.
He even did finish Aesthetics very early when i reviewed the saves i did throughout the game and had a tourism output which was enormous...
Another interesting fact is, that he did not meet anyone from my continent until the WC started...
@Acken
GJ! Did you manage to win IG? World Religion passed?
I'm quite surprised you can get 780 tourism using Order without being France or Brazil or Polynesia... (unless somehow you managed to dig up the entire map but even then your museums can only hold so much...) Normally on the rare occasions I go Order, the baseline tourism is around maybe 400-500-ish at most
GJ! Did you manage to win IG? World Religion passed?
I'm quite surprised you can get 780 tourism using Order without being France or Brazil or Polynesia... (unless somehow you managed to dig up the entire map but even then your museums can only hold so much...) Normally on the rare occasions I go Order, the baseline tourism is around maybe 400-500-ish at most
Acken
Deity
International games is one of the part I replayed yes. My first attempt was half hearted and I came second. I managed first place the next time (barely) when putting everything into it got 1980hammer vs 1915 I believe
due to Napoleon having tons of cities and ahead of other AI.I also had World Religion. But that one was rather easy to get since I was focusing on CS after the first vote (where I simply proposed WF). 10ish city states + bribing 2 AI made sure of getting World Religion. Even though after it 5 AI instantly DoW me
No other CV friendly proposal were proposed in the WC (most other proposal were bans on napoleons luxs).
I'm still unconvinced by the Freedom vs Order for culture. I've gone Order on that game and really what I got out of it was mostly the science bonus and the cheaper building. I only got the tourism bonus at the very end of the game.
Also that order tourism bonus feels sometimes really impractical. Sure I had more happiness than napoleon's autocracy but I had less than Greece and getting high happiness feels like a huge investment in policies.
If Freedom can get me as much science and close the gap through specialist gold, I think I'd prefer freedom bonuses. Getting more base tourism. But I don't know, skyscrappers is just so good :s I also used five year plan, without which I wouldn't have gotten IG.
Acken
Deity
Well you have a head start on those on your continent. Then I had invested into Patro and finally just abused spies. Rank 2/3 spies get very good odds quite fast. Park new recruits at home to level up once or twice then just get the CS with them. Gift gold to CS you don't need a lot to get. You're kind of screwed if you have no luck at all in coups though but 80% odds cannot go too badly.
He was fighting Napoleon the whole game too so maybe he didn't have as much cash to get CS. Alex isn't in every game though.
You can also just DoW him to keep him from stealing your CS once you have acceptable numbers. Put Napoleon on his back too and you can even get a juicy deal at the end.
He was fighting Napoleon the whole game too so maybe he didn't have as much cash to get CS. Alex isn't in every game though.
You can also just DoW him to keep him from stealing your CS once you have acceptable numbers. Put Napoleon on his back too and you can even get a juicy deal at the end.
I would rather work 3f tiles at the moment. Im keeping pace on science for now, and I expect to get to some crazy heights once everything comes together. My dream is to top 2,000 science, which I dont think Ive ever done.
Hmmm the science bonus works instantly for Order's factories however Freedom will eventually get a higher peak beaker with civil society in my experience. (It removes the realistic size cap of your cities from somewhere around 30-ish to 40-50... so if you are into hard building virtually every single wonder after Modern like I am, Freedom is the way to go). But if you like rush-buying rather than relying on good size and production overall (regarding both of which Freedom is superior), then by all means go Big Ben + Skyscraper.
Media Culture works on GMs so if your faith is high and you are relying on GMs to finish the job rather than passive pressure (say if you don't win IG then you have to rely solely on GMs), +34% is roughly +17% to GM strength after internet, provided no world religion bonus. Also, New Deal greatly boosts the strength of your landmarks and holy sites (virtually doubling their effect), as well as your academies (although science-wise unless you plant every GS like I do, it won't beat Worker's Faculties though esp. since WF works on all your cities while your academies tend to only be in your cap... but it helps a good bit, such that Freedom is not that much slower)
I'm sure SoL will beat out 5-year plan pretty solidly, at the cost of you having to build the wonder of course, assuming your cities are all well developed and working at least all their science and production specialists.
That said it doesn't have as much happy as Order... and I tend to go 3 cities Freedom, and Order for 4 or more unless I have some crazy happiness either through Patronage or Commerce. Freedom grows stuff pretty tall, but it relies on you to somehow find way to survive the unhappiness pre-hotels. If your strategy is to tech, tech , tech like SV and ignore a lot of other things and bet on winning IG and finishing around that time, then Order is your best bet though. Freedom's bonuses need turns to kick in and if you simply end the game fast then maybe it's not so good.
That is why I never, ever, attempt that stunt unless somehow everyone in the world adopts my ideology, I built them all landmarks, DoF, and helped all of them out, or something the only way I'll get it is if my neighbor proposes it after he took in my religion. So much headache for speeding up win time by actually not that much. (if it costs you OB or routes, then it's not worth it anymore...)Up to turn 201 some unexpected difficulties, but overall Im looking pretty good. Pictures below for turns 149 and 201.
Spoiler :
Uh-oh you might wanna hurry up and buy an inquisitor in your cap... something tells me those prophets are up to no good. If you are not ready to DoW, I think you can prepare to get citadel-bombed too...
salocin097
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 143
Looks like Parasgarade was already converted. Remember if they have Pagadoas or any happiness with their religion, buy the building
Acken
Deity
Hmmm the science bonus works instantly for Order's factories however Freedom will eventually get a higher peak beaker with civil society in my experience. (It removes the realistic size cap of your cities from somewhere around 30-ish to 40-50... so if you are into hard building virtually every single wonder after Modern like I am, Freedom is the way to go). But if you like rush-buying rather than relying on good size and production overall (regarding both of which Freedom is superior), then by all means go Big Ben + Skyscraper.
Media Culture works on GMs so if your faith is high and you are relying on GMs to finish the job rather than passive pressure (say if you don't win IG then you have to rely solely on GMs), +34% is roughly +17% to GM strength after internet, provided no world religion bonus. Also, New Deal greatly boosts the strength of your landmarks and holy sites (virtually doubling their effect), as well as your academies (although science-wise unless you plant every GS like I do, it won't beat Worker's Faculties though esp. since WF works on all your cities while your academies tend to only be in your cap... but it helps a good bit, such that Freedom is not that much slower)
I'm sure SoL will beat out 5-year plan pretty solidly, at the cost of you having to build the wonder of course, assuming your cities are all well developed and working at least all their science and production specialists.
That said it doesn't have as much happy as Order... and I tend to go 3 cities Freedom, and Order for 4 or more unless I have some crazy happiness either through Patronage or Commerce. Freedom grows stuff pretty tall, but it relies on you to somehow find way to survive the unhappiness pre-hotels. If your strategy is to tech, tech , tech like SV and ignore a lot of other things and bet on winning IG and finishing around that time, then Order is your best bet though. Freedom's bonuses need turns to kick in and if you simply end the game fast then maybe it's not so good.
Well I have more experience with order than freedom but my taking is that freedom pulls it's weight because you can work all specialist slots right away and use secularism for your science (and still grow). It's rare to do that before at least 10 or so turn after plastics when using order. 25% science from order is I think overrated on this forum.
Quick mathematics show that for freedom to give has much you need only 12.5% more base science before lab and 10% after lab (for a city with NC and no observatory and free thought). Number gets higher without NC and lower with observatory.
Getting 12.5% more base science is easy. Industrial era cities don't go over 100 of base science so getting 12% is approximately 12science. That is 6 specialists or 6 pop (or a mix of both). And if you plant academies new deal gives 4 base science per.
It's also where universal suffrage kicks in for the happiness. Order has more total happiness but it's divided in 4 policies, I never get all of them for a sub 250 win. On the other hand suffrage provides more happiness in one shot than order's policies. I'm pretty sure happiness isn't an issue.
SoL would require an engineer in low production games I think. So better have a strong religion to begin with. But CV without good religion kind of sucks anyway.
However I still fear missing rush buys in the industrial era where there is so much to build.
I don't really fear it on this map. As long as it didn't anger napoleon I was fine since he was the bigger threat of the other continent.
Finished up with a T277 science victory. Pretty good for a game where I didn’t get Education until after T120, Scientific Theory until T182, and Plastics until T227. Sadly, I failed to get to 2,000 beakers, but I came pretty close. Notes on the final stretch:
Spoiler :
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Acken
Deity
@Dehli
I steal when an AI get fast renaissance, like sub T100. This means I usually can grab some worthy techs during medieval/renaissance. I also do not bother if the steal time is superior to 15 turns and switch capital.
The thing is, stealing is nice but if you play strong science game you will always only steal weak bottom techs like steel or guilds. These techs usually take at worst 3 turns to research when you usually want them. So you're really not gaining that much turns.
As a result I usually stop stealing after 2 steal from my first spy. He's nicely leveled up as a result and I probably won't get anything else interesting most of the time.
I try to only put level 2 or 3 spies in city states. The only cases where I will put level 1 is if I'm already high in the city states.
At that point level 2/3 spies can easily steal CS you don't even have much influence in. Just wait for 85% odds and coup. Just start with the city states you have the highest influence in relative to the AI that currently control the CS.
Do not try this with CS you are already heavily invested in. If you can ally a CS with a small gold gift do that instead.
It really sucks when the coup fails but if you keep yourself coup-ing at 85% it should pay off on average (only 1 in 6 will fail). When you fail and get a new level 1 spy a dozen turn later, put him at home and once he kills an ennemy spy to reach level 2 bring him back on CS shenanigans.
If you're playing domination, stealing is a lot more interesting since you are usually lacking a lot many more techs.
I steal when an AI get fast renaissance, like sub T100. This means I usually can grab some worthy techs during medieval/renaissance. I also do not bother if the steal time is superior to 15 turns and switch capital.
The thing is, stealing is nice but if you play strong science game you will always only steal weak bottom techs like steel or guilds. These techs usually take at worst 3 turns to research when you usually want them. So you're really not gaining that much turns.
As a result I usually stop stealing after 2 steal from my first spy. He's nicely leveled up as a result and I probably won't get anything else interesting most of the time.
I try to only put level 2 or 3 spies in city states. The only cases where I will put level 1 is if I'm already high in the city states.
At that point level 2/3 spies can easily steal CS you don't even have much influence in. Just wait for 85% odds and coup. Just start with the city states you have the highest influence in relative to the AI that currently control the CS.
Do not try this with CS you are already heavily invested in. If you can ally a CS with a small gold gift do that instead.
It really sucks when the coup fails but if you keep yourself coup-ing at 85% it should pay off on average (only 1 in 6 will fail). When you fail and get a new level 1 spy a dozen turn later, put him at home and once he kills an ennemy spy to reach level 2 bring him back on CS shenanigans.
If you're playing domination, stealing is a lot more interesting since you are usually lacking a lot many more techs.
Grendeldef
Trancerelic & coffeeholic
Short recap from T120 to T209 before what I'll hope will be final push - by now domination is the only practical option.
Spoiler :
- Joined
- May 21, 2007
- Messages
- 1,083
I pretty much agree with this, and the rest of Acken's spy post. I'm less disciplined about training spies in my capital, however. (And I get irrationally annoyed when techs are stolen
This game Japan stole Calendar, Philosophy, and Astro from me. That early Samurai beeline sure comes at a high price.)On coups: there are only two situations where I use them regularly.
1) If I'm about to enter into a long war and don't have the gold to Ally: might as well roll the dice.
2) Good odds, but relatively little accumulated Influence. Losing a coup with 200+ influence is too painful for my tastes. (With Alex in this game there are several CSs that I would like to have with 300+ Greek influence. He also has 35k in the bank ... wish he'd learn how to use it! )
Grendeldef
Trancerelic & coffeeholic
T231 domination as the end was way easier than I expected - I'm so lazy doing domination that I constantly overestimate the AI.
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Hah, just remembered that I reloaded because I made a mistake, and twice the same turn because my short term memory was on strike.
I stopped playing just before I had 200 faith after a prophet & 1st missionary but still had automatic missionary purchase ticked so when I continued instead of switching to prophet for enhancing it spawned a missionary on 2nd turn. Reloaded but still forgot to change it so I reloaded again. Probably didn't make that much difference but advanced dementia shouldn't be an excuse - TdF just was way more interesting at the time.
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--- add. ----
Hah, just remembered that I reloaded because I made a mistake, and twice the same turn because my short term memory was on strike.
I stopped playing just before I had 200 faith after a prophet & 1st missionary but still had automatic missionary purchase ticked so when I continued instead of switching to prophet for enhancing it spawned a missionary on 2nd turn. Reloaded but still forgot to change it so I reloaded again. Probably didn't make that much difference but advanced dementia shouldn't be an excuse - TdF just was way more interesting at the time.
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Spoiler :
RedRover57
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,014
I'm a bit late to the party and have only played about 60 turns, but very fun so far.
Spoiler :
