The Deity Challenge Lineup - Game #6 - Byzantine Empire

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DingleBirdy

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The Deity Challenge Lineup - Game #6

Welcome to The Deity Challenge Lineup. This is a biweekly event with games being posted every other Friday. All games in this series will be set to DEITY difficulty. User civilizations, maps, and opponents will change with each challenge, but the pace will always be set at standard and the starting era will always be ancient. We will try for a variety of starts, and not just having a crazy warmonger as your next door neighbor (although there will be that too). This isn't a competition so there will be no predefined victory conditions. There is an informal spreadsheet of previous challenge finishers that you can find at the bottom of this post.

DCL Game #6
You – Byzantine Empire
Total Civilizations - 8
Total City States -16
Map – Continents
Settings – Quick movement and quick combat(turn them back on if you would like). Everything else is set to default.
Game Version - 1.0.3.144
Downloadable Content – G&K, BNW, Conquest of the New World Deluxe, Genghis Khan's Mongolia, Harold Bluetooth's Denmark, Isabella’s Sapin and Pachacuti's Incan Empire, Kamehameha's Polynesian Empire, Nebruchadnezzar's Babylon, Sejong The Great's Korea, Wonders of the Ancient World. The map pack are intentionally excluded.

Starting Location

The save can be found at the bottom of this post.

Rules and Misc
Spoiler :
Who can play?
Anybody can play. The more the merrier. Even if you normally don't play deity games you are still welcome to try. The games can become great learning resources for the player trying to improve. Even if you don't finish the game, we are still interested to hear about your experience.

Do's and Don'ts
We are going to be using the honor system. Feel free to restart, reload, play the same game multiple times, but don't use the science overflow exploit. Also please don't edit the game in IGE. If you do chose to cheat, please don't share your results in the comments. Also, please use the spoiler tag if you post a picture, comment about neighboring civs, close by wonders, or locations of ancient ruins.

Also, please tell us about your Build Order, Social Policies, Tech Order, and what type of wonders you went after. I know a lot of this stuff seems pretty mundane to the experienced player, but the details are incredibly useful to people trying to learn.

Why no vc's? And what is the point if this isn't competitive?
The Pilgrim said:
Having freedom to do whatever suits you best, whatever suits the map best, freedom to experiment and even fool around is, probably, one the main appeals of these games. We have two restrictive types of games. Why would we need another speed race?
Click to expand...

Acken said:
I obviously don't want to forbid people from proposing (deity challenges) but if at least one was aimed to regroup more people that would be great.
Click to expand...

klaskeren said:
The Deity challenge series is not about winning as fast as possible imo, its just about people playing the same start and telling the story of their game, unlike for example HOF and GOTM.
Click to expand...

Future Games
I want users to submit saves from turn 0. Preferably the person submitting the game has played enough turns to know the map is either difficult, fun, or unique in some enjoyable way. Write a short description as to why it is special and email the save to DeityChallengeLineup@gmail.com

Schedule
Game #1 - June 20th as The Zulu
Game #2 - July 4th as America
Game #3 - July 18th as Persia
Game #4 - August 1st as Sweden
Game #5 - August 15th as The Inca
Game #6 – August 29th – Byzantine Empire
Game #7 – September 12th
Game #8 – September 26th

Important
If you submit a game for the challenge, you must have the DLC map packs disabled. Not everybody has them and they are honestly kind of useless. Having them disabled will allow more participants.

DCL Finishers Spreadsheet
 

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I can't stop playing this one and I have to go to work.

I played exactly 50 turns and have a second city set up and the Festivals Pantheon. To say anything else would be a spoiler.

Spoiler :
I settled on the coast grass hill and built a Monument, scout, worker. Set research to AH and popped pottery. Saw Liz, then went west and saw Harold and a great spot for city 2. Sent some troops over to hold the spot. Got lucky on t20 and popped a Faith ruin after waiting to t20 to pass. Hello festivals. Researched Calendar and started selling all my Wines so I think people like me and wont attack.

Basic plan is 2 or 3 city coastal food ships. Not sure if/when/should I can take the east desert site.
 
Not sure how to handle that start. I don't like moving off the coast, but it is possible a city by the mountain is worth it.

I like the Byzantine UUs, but that UA? Not so much.
 
Olodune said:
Not sure how to handle that start. I don't like moving off the coast, but it is possible a city by the mountain is worth it.

I like the Byzantine UUs, but that UA? Not so much.
Click to expand...

I believe there is always a better spot to settle than the spawn point which you can reach and settle by then end of turn 1. In this case I think I found it.
 
Turn 100

Spoiler :
Is it smart to put your national college somewhere besides your cap? I decided to settle Adrianople next to a mountain and sent a cargo ship that way. That's where I placed my NC. Nicaea is next to a mountain also and the only reason I settled that city is that FoY is right there. I totally forgot that it gives you 10 extra happiness. Nicaea also has six workable sea tiles in range which is something I didn't know when I settled there.

Anywho, I got the Festivals of Gods pantheon right away. Big spoiler is that Kathmandu and Geneva are immediately to the east and you can found a pantheon on like turn five. I founded Taoism on turn 75 or so. I was the third to found a religion and was able to get monasteries and tithes. With the extra belief I grabbed production from fishing boats.

I kind of messed up in the beginning by dipping into honor when I probably should have stayed with tradition. For a minute I thought this would be a domination game, but some time shortly after I decided to go a different route. 100 turns is all I will be playing this weekend as I am on vacation.

Also I thought about taking fertility rites and swords into plowshares, but didn't know if they kind of cancelled each other out?? Does it end up being 25% growth?
 

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@hicks53081 in my Polynesian LP I moved the NC to a secondary city with mountain (capital also had mountain but was busy getting oracle at the same time) .. Here are the potential issues that arise

- you need to max pop in the secondary to get most science of the NC
- you need to max pop in the capital for city connection gold and if tradition - happy discount and extra monarchy gold ..

- some tradition food bonuses apply to capital only
- maritime city states also send most food to capital
- there is an autocracy policy that I sometimes pick early that doubles strategics and also adds +5 food to capital (not NC city)

Those are not insurmountable issues , just things to consider when deciding to outsource the NC (much more feasible when not going tradition)

fertility rites and swords into plowshares - should stack additively to surplus food like most other food bonuses (only Aztec UB and Temple of Artemis wonder work on generated food AFK) ..
 
Well, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to finish this game for a while (traveling to Peru to visit the oddly familiar sites of Cusco, Ollantaytambo, and Machu Picchu :)), but I've had such a strong start that I just had to write it up.

Spoiler :
Moved my warrior and saw some good stuff, so I decided to spend a turn getting up on the hill. Started researching Pottery and then found it for free in a ruin on turn 2. I decided to "go for it" and build Shrine first. Faith is going very well and I'll be ready to found on turn 53. Getting Monasteries, obviously. Bonus belief will probably be Religious Texts, but Itinerant Preachers is also an option.

Capital build order: Shrine, Scout, (buy Scout), Monument, Granary, Scout, (buy Archer), Caravan, Archer, Settler in progress

I bought a Scout to try to make up for lost time from starting Shrine-first. Ended up building yet another Scout later after I stupidly got one killed. I built the Monument because I'm doing a Trad/Liberty hybrid (Tradition Opener, full Liberty, pick up Legalism and Monarchy later) -- I knew even before starting that I wanted to do Tradiberty, since I like founding a bunch of cities early with religious civs. I was also thinking I might try for a Domination-assisted culture victory, and the free Amphitheaters from Tradiberty are actually pretty relevant for that. Seeing the Fountain of Youth and the strong religion start sealed it -- I know I'll have lots of happiness, so I'm going to get out there and found some cities.

Adrianople was a pretty vicious forward-settle on England. They didn't secure the Dyes and I decided to make it mine. I will also put one city on the Copper next to the Sheep and another to the left of the Fountain of Youth. I will probably put a fifth city down after National College on the coastal desert hill near that mountain to the right. That'll give me three coastal cities --> mondo food from Cargo ships.

Stole two workers from England early but didn't take any from City-States (I even returned two Workers that had been captured by barbs). I just had lots of good opportunities to get friendly with City-States and decided to go for the influence. I'm currently allied with one Maritime and one Religious (Ormus and Geneva), and I have a Scout and Archer converging on a barb camp that I have two quests for. Going to need to actually hard-build some workers, but that's ok -- Liberty helps for that.

Denmark and has a lot of troops and took a City-State. I decided to denounce, which got me a DoF with Askia. I think the terrain and Askia's city locations will protect me from the Danish menace. England is more of a potential issue. I have a Caravan going her way, and I hope that our mutual hatred of Denmark will eventually bring us closer together. But it could get messy.

This is a pretty good start and I think it's going to get completely insane once Lighthouses and Cargo Ships kick in.
 

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Olodune said:
Not sure how to handle that start. I don't like moving off the coast, but it is possible a city by the mountain is worth it.

I like the Byzantine UUs, but that UA? Not so much.
Click to expand...

By experience, mountains aren't that much better than coast and lately I would even preffer coast to mountain. And as weird as it sounds it's even truer for capital than expansions (but you need coast expansion for coast capital anyway). This is due to the NC.

The maths are pretty easy to figure out.

For example just after astronomy:

1 NC + University bonus = 88%
2 NC + University + Observatory = 133%

So for both strategy to yield the same stuff we must have
base1 * 1.88 = 2.33 * base 2
Which implies base1 = 2.33/1.88 * base 2 = 1.24 * base2

And note that this ratio diminishes as you get free thought and labs.

So if coast give you 24% more base science, take the coast. Which shouldn't be too hard to get with more specialist slots worked and more pop due to cargos.
If base2 is a 15 pop city it means: 3(palace) + 15(pop library) + 3(NC) + 10(scientists) + 4(writers)=35
24% of that is 8.4.

So you only need to have 8.4 base science to catch up with the coast city. Which can be easily achieved by having 3 more pop and putting them in market/workshop slot for example: 3*1.5 + 4 = 8.5.

And finally even if you don't exactly catch up to the observatory you should have a city that generates at least more gold and more production.
 
Very nice analysis. Another benefit to avoiding the mountain is that you have to actually build the Observatory. Those hammers could be used for something else.

In this game the main reason I think the mountain area might be worth it is for more/better tiles in the capital. I'll see what the warrior finds when I play later. From what I see now I think I'll settle the cattle.
 
Turns out my flight has free WiFi, so time for one more update :) To turn 100:

Spoiler :
I ended up spamming out a couple more cities before National College, and am now on pace for a turn ~110 six-city NC. Extremely slow but my pop is good and growth potential is exceptional. Probably going to be boring and go for a Freedom science victory. All these coastal cities and sea resources seem to point that way (combination of good food and limited number of good tiles = work lots of specialists). I'm very interested in seeing how fast it's possible to win with such a delayed National College.

Religion-wise, my Prophet took an extra four turns to spawn after I hit the threshold, during which time two religions were founded and Monasteries got swooped. I decided to just go for Tithe/Swords to Plowshares/Religious Texts. All religions are gone and nobody else on my continent founded (despite Askia and Elizabeth both going into Piety :lol:) so I'll get good spread and Tithe gold. Could use the diplo help, too, as England recently denounced me.

Liberty great person was spent on an Academy, although I seriously considered going for the Great Admiral to meet the other continent. I guess I'll have to prioritize Astronomy instead. The lack of cultural city-states on this continent is very troubling. No wonders yet -- put a couple turns into the Oracle before realizing I couldn't afford it, but I really want to get my culture up.

Also, interesting note about this map: both the Militaristic City-States on this continent give musket UUs (Janissary and Tercio). Might be possible to do interesting stuff if you wanted to prioritize Gunpowder a bit, although at this point my game is clearly going a different route.
 

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Acken said:
So if coast give you 24% more base science, take the coast. Which shouldn't be too hard to get with more specialist slots worked and more pop due to cargos.
If base2 is a 15 pop city it means: 3(palace) + 15(pop library) + 3(NC) + 10(scientists) + 4(writers)=35
24% of that is 8.4.

So you only need to have 8.4 base science to catch up with the coast city. Which can be easily achieved by having 3 more pop and putting them in market/workshop slot for example: 3*1.5 + 4 = 8.5.

And finally even if you don't exactly catch up to the observatory you should have a city that generates at least more gold and more production.
Click to expand...

However, a coastal city will generally have 1/3rd of the available tiles (including food tiles) be dumb because they're just water without resources. Also, rarely are you on the coast but also with access to river tiles (like in the current case) -- so I don't know that a coastal city will necessarily have 3 more pop than a city lucky enough to be on a river and next to a mountain.

Also, not sure why you think you'll have more production -- if you can run a prod cargo route as well that will help but your tile quality is generally lower.
 
A great inland placement is better than a poor coast yes.

I'd expect readers to make that distinction obviously.

That discussion was also in the context of this map regarding Olodune question: a promising coast vs the mountain. And a priori, I'd say the coast is the better choice here.
 
:) to t100

Spoiler :

Settled on the Cows. We'll be having Byzantine Beef often.

Got a culture ruin (along with maps, barbs, and a 2-turn saving pottery ruin). Found the two religious city states and so for the first decision: what Pantheon? I chose God-King. It's so early that the yields will be very helpful, and I'm not ready to work the wines .... I think this will be an unpopular choice :lol:

I've never had the Fountain of Youth so you can bet I 2-popped a settler. It's a good city:



I was down to the last religion and my prophet refused to spawn for an eternity (~6 turns or so ;) ). Made it.

Religion

God-King
Tithe
Pagogas
Religious Comm

Rich lands. NC and Oracle in the 80s. Education at t99.



Demos show that I've caught up really well for this point in the game.


 
This is a fun map, thanks! I'm always a sucker for the religion game, and Byzantium was my favorite G&K civ. I've been slogging through the Sweden save in my spare time, so this was a nice change of pace. Although, it feels more like immortal with such good lands.

Spoiler :
I got my pantheon T4 after meeting Geneva and Kathmandu with my warrior. Chose festivals. Since FoY is in play, and there are some really good lands, I put 4 into Liberty to start and settled 5 more cities. 1 west of copper mountain, on the desert river hill coast, on the hill peninsula sw of FoY, the snow hill in range of 7 sea resources and furs, and one to get the cotton and incense. Liberty with a 10 happy buffer is a lot of fun!

After I got my Liberty worker I filled in Piety. I reformed around 180 and got the great person one. I'm enjoying using policies I usually skip. I think I'll go down exploration next, as I have 5 coastal cities.

I got the 3rd religion: festivals for a pantheon, founded with tithe, monasteries and god of the sea (I have 19 sea resources), reformed with cheaper prophets and 15% production. No one else on my continent got a religion, so I've been free to spread. Lizzy was going for one but didn't make it. She filled out piety though...
 
A brief t150 Update

Spoiler :

You know a Deity game is going well when it's possible to build both the Forbidden Palace and the Leaning Tower of Pisa. :)

Also founded the WC:



Beakers are a little lower than the Incan game, but GPT is solid. I'll buy a school for Constantinople next turn.



Biggest regret is taking Pagodas instead of something cultural or God of the Sea. Going to war at some point so either a militaristic CV or Domination.
 
Up to T100.

Spoiler :

Warrior to East & Settler to West which looked nice enough so I settled on the hill. T2 Pottery ruin & T6 pantheon due to meeting the CS so there's a fair chance of religion with Theo - refreshing. Took Goddess of Festival as the wine was on grass hence +2 food & workable from the start.
T14 DoW Lizzy for a worker and warrior camping her borders but only managed to steal a 2nd worker after I went searching for London ~T35. Made white peace T37 as I needed a target for my caravan - I badly needed some beakers.
DoF Askia T38 and T47 Harald came knocking my door so I paid him a lux & few gpt to make a detour towards England.

No sign of pantheons in neighbouring countries nor anyone going Piety so I thought I'd do something with religion and nothing much else. In last challenges my plans have been screwed so decided to avoid planning and go with the flow with as little effort as possible hence the lack of units. All my money seems to be going to buying more than a few tiles and a Dromon to clear the waters for my cargo ship. One lucky camp q made me & Geneva allies.
4th city settled ~T50 and 4th religion T54 with quite a lot wasted faith and 2 other religions founded while I was waiting the lazy prophet to appear.

T78 Liberty finished and GA to seach the waters. Science would've also been nice but the time seemed early enough for meetings others and since I wasn't planning early wars there were no drawbacks.



Honor Harald is not the pinnacle of friendliness and this time I couldn't distract him so I just denounced him while waiting the inevitable. The 2 scouts around Copenhagen have been there for over 20 turns to screw Harald's income. He was broke until the peace with Lizzy but running at least -15gpt for ages has had a noticeable effect on his wallet. His income is from bullying my allies. Giving tons of money to Sidon instead of building units seemed like a reasonable plan and it worked when the DoW came T93. CS units killed 80% of his army leaving me to pick up few scrubs. The most (and only) effective viking was the jungle-loving warrior pillaging my trade routes to England.




T81 NC, T82 Oracle, T85 met Venice, T87 Egypt, T89 the Celts, T92 Theology & T95 the Inca but very few CSs on coast. I also paid a lux for Askia to DoW Harald so Harald is already offering 3 luxes & some gpt for peace but I think I'll take a city for spices it has before peace.
I was saving Pyramids for multiple CS quests hopefully on the other continent, too but this backfired as Rammy apparently too Liberty after meeting me built it T95. Askia was a religious late bloomer and is taking the WWonders which sucks as I was planning an easy home continent conversion. Lizzy built GW and barely tolerates me I might end up with another war soon.

I still have no idea what I'll end up doing but simple Alpha Centauri & Diplo are off the table; might even do some twisted domination to keep the record intact though I probably have to build some units for that.

The start is excellent so regardless of what happens on the other continent it's just a matter of picking a VC at some point. Lack of rivers means that there'll not be the std production boost later on but that hardly matters.
 
268 Science Victory

Earlier I stated I would not be playing this game for the rest of the weekend because I was on vacation. Welp my camping vacation was cancelled because I woke up at 3:30am with water pouring into my tent. All my stuff was soaked so I just packed up and headed home. To the game...

Spoiler :
This was a peaceful science victory. The closest I was to a war was when Askia started capturing my city states. Near the end he had units on my borders but I paid him 5gpt to attack Elizabeth. By the end of the game I had been denounced by everyone because I went freedom. Seriously, why does the ai not take freedom? Because the AI hates freedom I had to hard build three parts even though I had researched all the necessary techs in the 250s.

I could have attempted a cultural victory here, but Pachacutti was going pretty hard with wonders. I am not good at cultural games so I stuck with science even though I don't find the vc all that engaging. Other than that Denmark was killed off in the 130s before I ever met anyone form the other continent. Also never met Venice because Patch had captured his cap early.

Wonders built
-Oracle
-Sistine
-Broadway
-Big Ben
-PT
-Louvre
-Eiffel Tower

I think I actually built a few more wonders because they were available and I didn't have pressing needs anywhere else.
 

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