The Immortal Challenge Lineup - Game #14 France

budweiser · Jan 21, 2015

consentient - I dont think the discussion of cats/trebs is off topic at all since I essentially asked people to take that path while the victory condition was open as it usually is. I also enjoy exploring options to conventional wisdom of the boards.

I use spears/pikes because they are powerful early. I am also trying to block more and keep AI from moving in on me in the battlefield. I dont care about the upgrade, you can always park them in cities later.

consentient · Jan 21, 2015

To me, anything other than a scout in a city is a waste of a unit

I only build spears as Darius or Boudicca.

neilkaz · Jan 21, 2015

@ Fluphen

Spoiler :

Acken · Jan 21, 2015

It takes a lot of time for 2culture per turn to amount for the same as what bulbing a GW or GA would do.

Fluphen Azine · Jan 21, 2015

neilkaz said:
@ Fluphen

Spoiler :

How did you play for almost 350 turns and have only 18 tourism and not be crushed by ideological issues? One weakness I think I have in this game is this fear as I almost always plant my GA and GW rather than bulbing them. This I think makes my SV's too late and not quick enough to give me a chance on Deity.

First thing to stop any pressure is making your ideology the World Ideology! Also in my game I was first to Ideology. Next, Only 3 Civs and myself were alive. I chose Order, my Enemy chose Autocracy, The other Civ chose Freedom who actually died in a few turns after choosing, and my DOF chose to go with Order as well. So that is pretty strong to have no pressure but always make your Ideology the World Ideology and you should have no pressure! When I lost the Mayan Deity game I was fooling around with going Freedom and everyone else went Order. I could of withstood the revolt but I decided to change costing me 2 turns which I lost the game by 1 turn lol!

Anyway it is a pretty safe bet that more Civs will go Order or Autocracy so that is also a way to stay away from pressure if you so choose. I always bulb all my GAs and GWs for the most part.

consentient · Jan 21, 2015

Only if there is Korea in the game am I ever 2nd to ideology.

I only plant GWAM if I am trying for a CV. Else bulb.

sun8119 · Jan 22, 2015

CV T241

And a noob question since I rarely go CV. What is the point of swapping great works? Looks useless to me but maybe I am doing it wrong

Spoiler :

Fluphen Azine · Jan 22, 2015

Hmmm noob huh?? Seems funny but I think you winning the game about the same time I completed the Wonder Challenge does not qualify you as a noob but I understand that you are saying your a CV noob and not a noob to the game.

I remember reading about how this all worked when BNW first came out but since I hardly try for CV anymore I have forgot. I think it was one of Carls Guides that had it all laid out but unsure. I am sure kb27787 will be able to tell you the answer and tell you where to read up on all that info!

http://www.carlsguides.com/strategy/civilization5/culturalvictory.php

Acken · Jan 22, 2015

sun8119 said:
CV T241

And a noob question since I rarely go CV. What is the point of swapping great works? Looks useless to me but maybe I am doing it wrong

Spoiler :

4 cities, all in great locations on rivers. Thanks to Uluru and Pantheon I got my own religion and started growing my cities really big. The Huns were busy killing Shoshone. However, mean Russians came a bit later and killed them both around T150 or so. The rest of the game was peaceful except Russian war against Morocco with me between them. However, I did not see any troop movement so who knows why even AI DoW this way. Russians were denounced a few times by other civs but not me, I tried to stay friendly.

I could not believe how much French loved crab, is it so popular in french cuisine? My 1st luxury resource 3 cities requested was crab which was nowhere near to find. I did find it eventually in the middle of the ocean on the island and settled a city there which I sold to Carthage. The 2nd crab I saw was near Carthaginian city but in a location where I could not settle my own city. So I got crabs after years and years of looking for it (~150 turns later).

WF was won by around T190 but barely since Russia had a huge empire by then. They were also the biggest culture at the end with 17K. Nowhere near my 57K I used 2 musicians in Russia and 1 musician in Portugal to finish the game.

Burned 4 GWs after WF which gave a huge culture boost.

Wonders:
Eiffel Tower, Louvre, ND, Broadway, CN Tower, CI, Hanging Gardens, Pisa, ToA, Uffizi, Sistine, Oracle, Globe Theatre.

Policies: Full Trad, Rationalism, and Aesthetics, Patronage opener, some in commerce.
Ideology: Freedom
Religion: Pantheon +2 faith from quarries; pogodas and +1 gold for every 4 followers, and 15% growth.

Thanks for the map.

The point is to get works that you need for theming reasons.

I'm unsatisfied with how my game is going, I really can't make Liberty work well with culture :/ The mid game requirement of amphitheaters + Opera + Schools is just a very big strain on 8 cities. Also smaller capital/cities makes it harder to build all the stuff a CV needs. I went with 8 cities self made (scrapped my earlier game people hated me I couldn't sell anything :lol:

)

Well I'll still make a turn 230-240 win I guess but I'm fairly sure a classic Tradition game would be faster.

I'm wondering if there is a way to make it work better...

kb27787 · Jan 22, 2015

sun8119 said:
CV T241

And a noob question since I rarely go CV. What is the point of swapping great works? Looks useless to me but maybe I am doing it wrong

Spoiler :

4 cities, all in great locations on rivers. Thanks to Uluru and Pantheon I got my own religion and started growing my cities really big. The Huns were busy killing Shoshone. However, mean Russians came a bit later and killed them both around T150 or so. The rest of the game was peaceful except Russian war against Morocco with me between them. However, I did not see any troop movement so who knows why even AI DoW this way. Russians were denounced a few times by other civs but not me, I tried to stay friendly.

I could not believe how much French loved crab, is it so popular in french cuisine? My 1st luxury resource 3 cities requested was crab which was nowhere near to find. I did find it eventually in the middle of the ocean on the island and settled a city there which I sold to Carthage. The 2nd crab I saw was near Carthaginian city but in a location where I could not settle my own city. So I got crabs after years and years of looking for it (~150 turns later).

WF was won by around T190 but barely since Russia had a huge empire by then. They were also the biggest culture at the end with 17K. Nowhere near my 57K I used 2 musicians in Russia and 1 musician in Portugal to finish the game.

Burned 4 GWs after WF which gave a huge culture boost.

Wonders:
Eiffel Tower, Louvre, ND, Broadway, CN Tower, CI, Hanging Gardens, Pisa, ToA, Uffizi, Sistine, Oracle, Globe Theatre.

Policies: Full Trad, Rationalism, and Aesthetics, Patronage opener, some in commerce.
Ideology: Freedom
Religion: Pantheon +2 faith from quarries; pogodas and +1 gold for every 4 followers, and 15% growth.

Thanks for the map.

Well judging from the Hermitage in the screenshot seems you don't know about theming bonuses... (in which case France's UA is useless).
Funny because Paris was asking for crab as their first WLTKD in my game too and I only connected it late t200 from Dido who apparently found it somewhere on the map! :lol:

However your mouse above the +0 sign on each wonder/building with more than one slot to see the requirement of each. Once you complete a theming bonus the culture and tourism from all works in that building is increased by the base number which is the number of slots in that building (if 2 slots, +2, if 3 then +3... Louvre is the only one with +4 possible). Completing aesthetics doubles that bonus. France's UA doubles that bonus again for their capitol (so Louvre goes up to 4x2x2 = +16)... see my screenshot.

Museums are the only building where you can get half-bonuses. Both slots must be the same type (artwork or artifact) to get any bonus, and then if both works are from the civ the museum belongs OR both from foreign civs including CS (the foreign civs do not need to be the same) you get +1. Regardless of origin, if both works are the same era, then +1 again, so museums have a base bonus of +2, just like any 2-slot building.

Wonders such as Hermitage, Louvre, and Oxford absolutely REQUIRE you to trade great works (or capture some) to complete their bonus.

@Acken why don't you just sell some cities if you have 8? :lol:

And always pick hydro plant effectiveness over starting on a hill for CV.

Acken · Jan 22, 2015

Well because the purpose was to play with 8 and test it otherwise I would just not have made 8...

Here it is:
Turn 238 as predicted with a 8city NC

Spoiler :

Time to do it the old fashioned way

Acken · Jan 23, 2015

Finished it T218 with a tradition game, didn't have to reach Internet

Spoiler :

Managed to grab Notre-Dame, Le Louvre and La tour Eiffel in Paris.
Although Labs would have been necessary to reach it in a good time, don't know by how much it would have changed. I'm actually quite surprised in the end that the gap wasn't bigger. My liberty game was awful in comparison to the tradition one that pretty much went perfectly.

The funny thing is that I should have proposed IG instead of WF at the second council, WF felt pretty useless at the end since I already had everything I wanted. Next time I'll consider either IG or invest into Commerce earlier in the game.

budweiser · Jan 23, 2015

Acken said:
I'm wondering if there is a way to make it work better...

This is my theory:
Go 2 or 3 tall until Hermitage is up. Hopefully around 150. Then expand to as many as you can. The expansions would still have 90 turns of growth on a t240 win.

Another idea I toy with is unrest in a captured city if they are familiar with your culture. This cuts down on covnersion time penalties and population loss.

Something for you to think about.

Oh, did you use World Religion +50%?

Re: WF Over all I see it not so much as a necessity for CV, but just a tool to get you through one tree or at least several policies in a short amount of time. The policies could be rationalism, aesthetis, or an ideology, possibly exploaration. There's decent happiness and good culture in exploration.

consentient · Jan 23, 2015

Acken said:
Finished it T218 with a tradition game, didn't have to reach Internet

Consider making a guide for CV?

It's really, really quick. I don't understand how the musicians can be powerful enough :confused:

kb27787 · Jan 23, 2015

consentient said:
Consider making a guide for CV?

It's really, really quick. I don't understand how the musicians can be powerful enough

If he techs fast enough (and pros like Acken tech very fast)/ wins IG and bombs, it's quite possible.
293 tpt is quite sufficient on immortal and below if no AIs are culture runaways. (not on deity though)

budweiser · Jan 23, 2015

kb27787 said:
If he techs fast enough (and pros like Acken tech very fast)/ wins IG and bombs, it's quite possible.
293 tpt is quite sufficient on immortal and below if no AIs are culture runaways. (not on deity though)

Yeah around t200, the AI might have only 6K to 10K culture built up. So a few Musicians will do it.

I believe its similar on deity; that is the high culture doesn't build up until later in game.

So, you inflate TPT as high as possible and unleash the music men. You dont necessarily wait until the end game to start making music.

tribefaninnc · Jan 23, 2015

I started this last night and could probably use some advice from the pros. Still not great with CVs, using this to practice more.

Spoiler :

stormtrooper412 · Jan 23, 2015

Spoiler :

Acken · Jan 23, 2015

consentient said:
Consider making a guide for CV?

It's really, really quick. I don't understand how the musicians can be powerful enough

Yeah AIs were in their early 10K. With around 250 you already make close to 450 per turn with them so with a 2500 GM bomb (used 2) you'll catch up.

I play CV almost like a SV, I just try to find time to build CV requirement. The biggest difference is that I'll go archeology after radio.
Basically:
-First 110turns are identical, policies that I would normally put in commerce go into Aesthetics to
get shorter build time (then invest in Rati)
-I try to rush universities so I have time for amphitheater + workshop + opera
-I often pick a GE with pisa that I use for either Uffizi or a Radio wonder
-Propose culture for wonder or culture for sites in the first WF, otherwise the WF comes at the same time as archeology
-Spam archeologues to fill many GW slots
-Sometimes labs aren't necessary to reach the internet and many bulbs will be enough. Try to finish rationalism to get telecomunications and research internet while building the center.

budweiser said:
This is my theory:
Go 2 or 3 tall until Hermitage is up. Hopefully around 150. Then expand to as many as you can. The expansions would still have 90 turns of growth on a t240 win.

Another idea I toy with is unrest in a captured city if they are familiar with your culture. This cuts down on covnersion time penalties and population loss.

Something for you to think about.

Oh, did you use World Religion +50%?

Re: WF Over all I see it not so much as a necessity for CV, but just a tool to get you through one tree or at least several policies in a short amount of time. The policies could be rationalism, aesthetis, or an ideology, possibly exploaration. There's decent happiness and good culture in exploration.

T150 is too late, those cities will never pull their own weight.

No I didn't pass world religion, it's usually difficult to pass and people hate you.

budweiser · Jan 23, 2015

Acken said:
No I didn't pass world religion, it's usually difficult to pass and people hate you.

I have the best luck passing it when I host the first congress and I also have FP. That gets me 4 votes which usually works, but you cant rely on that every time.

The other way to get it passed is to nominate your neighbor's religion and take/annex his Holy city. I feel that +50% is so huge that it should be a consideration.

The Immortal Challenge Lineup - Game #14 France

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