The Deity Challenge Line-up #21 - India

No need to make jokes when I have a good wingman watching my six like you ! I set the Zulu/Kahn joke right up for you and you spiked it down good!

That is not Gandhi the Warmonger... that is kb27787 the Warmonger!! Nice job on your 2nd attempt to actually switch up your style and get into some aggressive maneuvers!!

Interestingly enough I never built one unit this game except for my scout who died by a horseman barb! I think that is a first for me. I am really falling in love with Holy Warriors ! I currently have 12 Xbows, 2 Longbows, 3 Pikes, 2 Cannons, and 2 Muskets. Even if I lose being 6th in Army without building any troops on turn 200 is pretty fun for me. Actually I had 5/6 workers and I had to recently delete them all to keep myself under the unit cap. I plan to build a few if I need them when the war with Zulu starts. I blocked him for a good amount of time but he finally sneaked in on my backside where I could of captured his unprotected settler but I figure my CS allies will take care of that city.

I almost got Petra on turn 84. I suppose if I would of not taken so many tech detours I would of had it. Anyways the good news is that I did not have to waste my GE since I was one turn away from using him and I used him for Borobudur instead which is nice to get the faith rolling and I had my Cont. almost converted but Shaka was able to get the last Religion and he is doing a good job of spreading it which is unfortunate for me. However if I can attack and win, I can correct the Religious situation which goes along with my Holy War theme.

PT off at turn 175 but I wasn't even trying for it when I seen Korea. I pretty much am beelining to Dynamite to get Artillery and to press into Shaka who is at war with Assyria and Arabia. Arabia is in trouble and it looks like a good stalemate between Assyria and Shaka. I have been using all my caravans for gold into Civs. I was close to 100gpt for a good while but some recent loans and I moved two caravans over for food to the capital has almost bankrupted my empire. I have to be careful when I start this war because it could result in an economic disaster if I don't get all the caravans out of Zulu Nation first.

Of course I used some exploits like giving 32gpt to Korea to war against Russia and I gave them the DOW next turn and got white peace later. Recently Korea asked me to join him in a war with Russia and I couldn't bribe them so I said why not!? The same goes for Austria when I needed Ivory and I got it for 28gpt and Dowed her one turn later getting white peace a few turns down the road. She married Ur and Genoa which is nice because my last Deity game with her she refused to marry any CS. She has pretty good control over the CS's but I was able to vote for Shaka to be head of the WC. I was hoping he would DOF me so I could abuse him but my only DOF is Assyria which came very late.

I really am enjoying this map. So much tension being far behind in spt and cpt but I am actually on my normal pace for my games being around 10% behind in tech. However, culture is going to be tough for me this game and I do not expect to win WF and might not be able to get the 350 hammers when it finally gets purposed if ever.

As you can see in the picture my Empire is horrible. Perhaps I should of played the small Piety Strategy with this type of an empire at turn 200 lol. Anyways I feel comfortable in my position for now but I was unhappy that Shaka became Super Shaka earlier than I would of liked. Kahn basically put up no fight and lost all his cities but one. One a bright side... Shaka has built some good Wonders but I do not like that he has Red Fort, however it could be worse if he had the GW as well. I stole a few techs but I got greedy when Korea asked me not to spy and I lost that highly promoted agent !

As usual the no reload/replay mod is in effect for my game so if I lose I lose and it will show up as a loss on my player page !

A pathetic, groveling win at Shaka's feet, but a win nonetheless. And I needed this win.

Went back and played DCL 18, 17, 16. DCL 18 ended in a huge nuclear exchange, but might have been winnable with a few different choices. DCL 17, thought I might go warring as Bismark, which I almost never do, and I failed to take a single capital (and started losing cities). DCL 16 I gently nurtured a runaway Alexander, and then got annihilated by him. Things were looking bad, and I thought about returning to Immortal.

So, for this challenge, back to science, as everything else I tried had been terrible. But Mongols and Zulus next door? I would have to be diplomatic.

Learning from the Alexander experience in the Poland DLC, I decided to be very solicitous to dangerous neighbors. I read somewhere that Shaka was loyal once you had his friendship, so that was the plan. I would be super friendly, buy him dinner, mow his lawn, and then BAM! I'm pregnant! And its yours, Shaka! I gave him luxuries and strategic resources for free, and supported every single WC proposal he made. I turned the Mongols against him, and when they were annihilated, I sent Shaka after everyone else. And he killed them all. But I had a DoF, and hopefully that would be enough to keep him off my back while I stole a science victory out from under him. Kept giving him free stuff throughout. He came up with a proposal asking for 0 iron for free, does this happen? I said yes, because why not?

One big mistake, I thought I might be able to outrun everyone in tech, so I went Freedom when the runaway Zulus went Autocracy. Big mistake. I had to switch to autocracy to fix my happiness issues.

Fortunately the two big runaways were autocracy (Austria the other), their science was crappy, they both seemed to be looking for CV's while having massive cultural output, and I was able to bow and scrape, and generally be terrible to a turn 357 science victory. Yay!

Incidentally, what about this map makes it more of a challenge? Is the terrain bad for production? That would be my guess.

If this map is Medium to Hard I am curious to see the one that you list/post as only Hard lol!! Wow ... very impressive Empire... Your building Pisa which is very impressive. It is going to be enjoyable to see how you proceed and make this map look like child's play!

First off ... Congrats on your Win and welcome to the DCL if I have not welcomed you before!! I am not sure if this was a question or a statement. I think it was a question so I am going to kinda answer it from my perspective. The start has a lot of jungle. Not a lot of room to expand. Two very strong early Warmongers next door that can knock your lights out if you make even small mistakes. India is tough in general and can be tricky at times, not to say that you can't have some amazing games with India but they are at times like on this map very different compared to playing other Civs. No ruins to boost your culture or other things that they help with. No nearby Culture CS which makes your culture slower to start. Shaka has a good position and in most players games if you do not deal with him in a timely manner it can become a huge stalemate. However, I can see your point if you play a strong Diplo game and plan on only turtling. Also you have Korea on the other side of the World running away with the tech lead. Maria is marrying CS's which can make things difficult. Many more things to list but that is a good start at what makes this more difficult compared to most maps that have been posted in the series.

I for one love this map!! I wish I believed in Replays/Reloads but I will not be trying this again. One and done is more of my motto on most games. Especially a game like this where a Replay is only going to make my game easier. Anyways... I think we need to have a map like this at the very least 1 out of 4 DCLs. Yes easy maps like Spain should be posted as well 1 in 4 but I really need a map like this to keep loving Civ V BNW. I am really amazed at this map and I wonder how long it took to roll it?? Perhaps it was an older game and it was in the vault for such an occasion. Anyways... I am learning more tricks of how to roll and find harder maps and I wonder if Alex was in this game on the other side how much harder that would make it!!

Now... back to my game lol! I am sorry I am just super pumped about this game and having a lot of fun which I haven't had for some time in Civ.

Basically I underestimated the strength of the Zulu and I am in jeopardy of being overrun. I think if I had to replay this map I would of went Full Honor instead and only built two cities and scraped my city on the marble. I might need to sell that city actually. The main problem is my best DOF with 4 green modifers/no Red Modifiers just Dowed me lol!! I think he seen a vulch opportunity or he got bribed into it which is most likely.


It is isn't over just yet but it is starting to look like a loss which is what I desperately needed since I think I have won my last 6 games on Deity. My last loss was the Rome IDS 7 Game and I enjoyed that game almost as much as this one but not nearly.

I just think that Deity should not be won 99% of the time as a lot of players have shown. I agree with Acken on another post where he said Emperor should be scraped and they should make one more level above Deity!

Anyways... really great map and I will finish later as I need a break after this last 50 turns! I think the players that wanted tougher maps have got what they asked for in this one so you know as you Brits say... Cheers!!

Yes, I definitely see what you are talking about now. I got (sort of) lucky, because I bribed everyone to go after Korea, because I figured I would be competing for the same victory conditions. And if either the Zulus or Austria went order or freedom, I think I would have been sunk. Teching by the leaders was slow in my game, Shaka still had the engine and stasis chamber to build, and Maria had 5 parts left, even at turn 357.

I bribed Shaka to kill Genghis, and then I kissed Shaka's ass for almost 6000 years. That is basically the story of my game. I took his ideology, voted for all his world congress proposals, proposed things he would like, denounced whoever he denounced or fought. Overall I'd say my game was a success, but incredibly boring. It's a good thing Shaka is so loyal, because any other warmonger would have nailed me to the wall when they saw my army in the modern age was 2 composite bows and a pikeman.


In a little more detail, I paid Shaka to fight Assyria, who he almost wiped out, and Arabia, who he didn't. Once we met the other continent, I deliberately avoided getting an ideology until after he picked Autocracy. Korea and Russia were the other technologically advanced civs. Until I started bulbing my GSes I was always 4th in science from the industrial era onwards.

Korea went Order and Russia went Freedom. Autocracy isn't that great for science, but I needed to not get killed by Shaka, so I picked Autocracy. The double-speed spies were actually pretty decent. I only ever put three policies in Autocracy. I was full tradition/commerce opener/full rationalism. Managed to build Big Ben, Machu Picchu and the Hubble, but nothing else.

Korea and Russia each had 4 parts finished when I completed the spaceship, but Russia didn't have enough tech to build the last part (I am pretty sure you need 300 tech score to build all the parts). Korea might have completed the spaceship, but Sejong and Cathy were fighting periodically all game long. I was able to bribe Shaka to fight both of them at once in the modern era, and he took over half of Korea's empire. Without those bribes I am pretty sure Korea would have launched before I did, as he was only 2 techs behind me at the end of the game and therefore had to necessary tech to finish the spaceship.

Played most of the game with a mere 2.5 cities (only annexed at the end as I was able to Jesuit-buy a public school and RL in Beshbalik)

Finally had enough money to upgrade my trireme and explore the rest of the world. Founded WC without any problems as the other side of the world never came over.


Kissed up to him a bit (but also to Assur and to everyone else in general) I couldn't get a DoF until WC was founded... and even then I had to give everyone gifts before they would be my friends... (pretty slow science from just 2 cities and a puppet so I had to sign like crazy).
Built landmarks for almost everyone as only Arabia went Freedom like me. That kept the friendships going.

Btw, look at that 5-prophet army... (small piety would've been screwed)


Took the tech lead from Korea finally t200+


Win... pretty easy actually once you get the diplomatic problems solved. Sea routes helped a lot in getting money for those RAs.


Policies... got just about everything needed except for scholasticism (but I wasn't winning WF anyway with that kind of dirt... I needed more hammers in cap... cap is all food tiles)


Korea didn't do too well despite not being conquered or anything... seems he didn't grow and was last in pop.

-From my T144 I canceled Pisa started to make units and factories. Started farming impis with 4 artilleries on turn 165-170 and once my cities had produced around 11 I started to make ships and planes.
-I went autocracy with 3 factories and grabbed reduced gold cost for purchase (meh) and double speed spies. That allowed me to steal so many tech from Sejong. I even got rocketery out of him. I caught up to him somewhere in the atomic era.
-After killing Shaka around T190 I decided to focus on the other continent first. For multiple reasons. Assur and Harun are weak in tech so I know I'll kill them quickly later. Catherine and Maria are making a ton of culture I don't want to be hit by ideology pressure too hard when fighting Sejong. I need to kill Sejong before he launches and get nukes etc.
-So here we go, in a true 6th june 44 fashion our artilleries cross the ocean and land in a very tight terrain near Austria's cities. Thanks to some stolen tech I have battleship support and despite losing 3 artilleries in the landing I get her city which allows for a foothold toward vienna. -Austria falls quickly with the addition of planes and some rocket artillery. It's time for Sejong.
-I rush buy a couple Fighters to get rid of his bombers and then can capture his capital.
-The game is now in the bag. I go toward a Catherine with a carpet of crappy units while a small force at home go for Harun and then Ashurbanipal.
-The last 20 turns were very painful in happiness and our capital is surrounded by rebels

We defended as long as we could. Sold my 2 expos for around 135gpt total. The Zulu nation started to send waves of GWIs and other units and finally with some bombers and a Lancer that seemed to pop up out of the Ocean and capture Delhi in one turn ending the game, and what a fun game it was! I know most players did not enjoy this game with as much zeal as I did but I enjoy watching the AI overrun me and basically I enjoy seeing that even with all the tricks/exploits that I used I still did not stand a chance.

The Gall of the Zulu Tribe sending two caravans right through my lands during war and getting an Archaeologist over to my jungle hex right next to Delhi to excavate an artifact was just pure salt in the wound but funny as well. I kinda enjoyed that since I did get to plunder both caravans but the Archaeologist was unable to complete his mission and ran away.

Another strange thing that I haven't seen too much of was that my DOF Assyria back stabbed me and DOWed me on turn 249 but offered white peace on turn 257 and DOFed me on turn 259 once again. They wouldn't fight the Zulu until it was too late which I found enjoyable not being able to bribe anyone to help me with the Zulu !

When it comes down to it this war was my own fault. I planned it and started it when I wanted to. I was never forced into it. I had the Zulu at war with 2 Civs when I started and I thought I could press in and capture enough cities or even the capital but as it turned out I was only able to capture one city and had to give it up soon after.

Really fun map/game though and I will be looking forward for some revenge on the next medium to hard map posted!!

Second attempt, quite better. Not really expecting a fast finish here but then again, I wouldn't be sure I will finish anyway

Genghis asked me to attack Shaka together. I laughed but accepted thinking and hoping something good might happen. It didn't! Shaka didn't mind my attacking him and we made peace soon but Genghis wasn't as lucky, and in turn 74, he was gone. Shaka already brandishing Impis might have had something to do with it.

Meanwhile I'm slogging on and on, if Shaka doesn't suddenly go mad and attack, I'll be alright, Korea is unlikely to run away quickly because I believe that either:

a. he will get double teamed by Cathy and Maria
b. he will destroy them both but too much cities will drag him down

So, hideous starting location and two psycho warmongering neighbors, not doing too badly

(my 1st try at this game was disastrous settling on the river cocoa rather than mountain and being stuck with a lot of flat jungle with no production going tradition... if you want tradition you have to settle where I settled my 2nd game... on the beach, to get a strong early game)... and I have a feeling liberty by FAR is better if you plan to expand and stand your ground in the jungle

I remember us talking about these because they make it harder to compare games on an individual basis. I still agree with this in the short run but what I realize now about No Ruins is that it doesn't matter about the ability to compare games more so than the difficulty that is raised when you play with them off. I see now that having No Ruins makes the game more difficult compared to having them on.

Korea

Spent the first 200 turns desperately trying to stay hidden from Shaka and Genghis, didn't even try to build up an army with the crap production around the starting location. Settled next to the mountain, 2nd city to the North next to the mountain(in range of old faithful). NC on T84. 3rd city to the south on the coast in range of the gold and marble. Shaka eliminated the Mongols, paid huge amounts of gold and luxuries to keep him fighting Arabia and Assyria.

Then to add to the bad start, freaking Korea is in the game and has a 10 tech lead over everyone else. No one is willing to DoW him at all throughout the entire game. Went full tradition, opened commerce, then rationalism(sec, 17% uni) then freedom. Culture was garbage even with plantation pantheon so policies were way too slow.

Had 7 GS left with 8 techs left(top and bottom of tree, needed the tech for statis chamber and engine) when Korea won with 3 boosters done, cockpit almost done and 6k in the bank to buy the rest. Was probaly 10-15 turns from winning.

Petra gambit is going to be the only way out of this slog, I think, but I just met Arabia, so not sure if it will be there even given a pretty fast start in science and culture (Sacred Paths). I think I can pull it off around t65.

And I joined Shaka in a war with Genghis Kahn't.

I see why this map was rated difficult: Shake and Genghis Khan plus the jungle means a lot of things can go wrong early. However, if you manage to do enough bribes everything works out fine. I bribed Shaka twice to go to war with Genghis, and once the other way around. Somewhere along the way I also bribed Assyria to get to war with Genghis. I got attacked once by Genghis but in a profound example of AI disorganistion he did not managed to accomplish anything. Around turn 200 I attacked Shaka together with Genghis, I grabbed one city and suddendly Genghis was less disorganised apparently as he managed to finish off Shaka. Gentleman as I am I then backstabbed Genghis Kahn and grabbed Karakorum, Ulundi and some other cities. This was around turn 240, from there on I decided to go for a science victory. I bought two of my space parts, always nice. Korea on the other side of the map could have been a threat..had they not managed to get themselves wiped out.

As usual I made some mistakes…I forgot to build the National epic (!), and accidently built an archer before a library in my second city which delayed the national college by about 10 turns. Anyway, my early science was quite allright due to the 2-3 trade routes coming in from Shake and Genghis. I went tradition (anything else on this map would really hurt I think), rationalism, and freedom which I managed to get first around 214. Luckily the main tourism producers, Austria and Arabia, also took freedom. Valletta and La Venta were allies almost the entire game and from very early, also very helpful. I even got a religion around turn 122, sun god, pagados, and religious community. By itself nice, but I didn’t do too much with it. I guess my faith production was too low to actually use it properly. It actually took very long before it spread beyond my capital.

Genghis Kahn was having a tough time the first time shaka attacked. I did my best "lingering around" with my units, just get in the way of shaka and try to slightly delay his units moving to the war zone, not sure if that helped though Also, at some point shaka started building wonders, weird..so first you piss of genghis khan and then you start building wonders