Liberty and Patronage at Emperor and above

zxcvbob

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Trying to mix-up my strategy a little; Tradition+right side of Commerce+Rationalism every time, only thing that changes is whether I pick Freedom ideology or not.

So, going to play a game as Greece at Emperor with all victory conditions enabled except diplomacy. A couple of questions because this is foreign to me.

Should I delay the Liberty finisher so the golden age comes when I'm actually making money, or is the early GS or GE too powerful to wait? Or does it depend whether I'm going to take a GE, GS, or GP?

Should I finish Patronage, or just take the left side and then switch to Commerce? (also left side) Consulates is good, but I'm not sure it saves me as much gold as what an extra policy in Commerce would give.

I have played Patronage games before, and the free Great People you get seem few and far between sometimes. Some of them are great, and some are meh. (I love getting Khans and Great Scientists. Admirals and musicians, not so much)
 
If you are starting liberty, I think it is best to just finish it asap. Getting the early academy is very useful. I used to like getting a GE, but now I'd only do that if Petra is still available.

For Patronage, it's probably most effective to stop at Consulates, but you said yourself you want to mix things up, so completing it is actually not that bad. Scholasticism and Cultural Diplomacy can both be decent, and if you've gone that far, I think you should definitely finish it. While not as strong as Rationalism and Commerce, it's not a terrible policy tree.
 
I was thinking of skipping Consulates altogether and just get Philanthropy, Scholasticism, and maybe Cultural Diplomacy. Or come back and get CD later; depends on how I'm doing for happiness and strategic resources.

Oracle is not good enough to forfeit a great scientist, is it? (but it might be good enough to delay National College for 8 turns or so)
 
I generally go NC with Liberty free GE. With that many cities and how the NC cost scales, it takes too long to hard build.
 
One thing about finishing patronage is that the great person you get for free, is not really free it adds to the turns it will take to get the next great person in that category. Though if you are not playing Venice then sometimes you will get a Great Merchant of Venice which is really nice. If you have had a crap start sometimes finishing patronage can help a lot with happiness and gpt but usually by the time I can get those (especially the gpt when trading with city-states) there are other more interesting things available.
 
You sometimes get khans too.

Be careful though, because if you aren't venice using the merchants of venice gives you a warmongering penalty, which can mess up all of your CS bonuses.
 
...I used to like getting a GE, but now I'd only do that if Petra is still available...
On Emperor Petra is more than viable before or after NC. An expo can get it if you send at least 1 food caravan.
...because if you aren't venice using the merchants of venice gives you a warmongering penalty, which can mess up all of your CS bonuses.
What this the same as DOWing a CS. I though all you got was "you killed a CS under their protection" diplo modifier.
 
On Emperor Petra is more than viable before or after NC. An expo can get it if you send at least 1 food caravan.

What this the same as DOWing a CS. I though all you got was "you killed a CS under their protection" diplo modifier.

Warmonger penalty for taking cities is inversely proportional to the number of cities the civilization has. In the case of a city state, it has only one city, so you get maximum warmonger penalty, and that one city is enough to harm your relationships.
 
^^ I can never resist stealing away some sweet CS that an AI has 300+ points of influence with!

But I hardly ever fill out Patronage nowadays.
 
GMoV's also give twice the gold yield (1600 instead of 800, or later 4000 instead of 2000) and twice the influence (60 instead of 30)

As for patronage, I usually take consulates only if it's early; my 8th overall pick. In other words, I'd finish tradition or liberty, open patronage and consulates, then switch to rationalism (or in your case, commerce.) If I open patronage and then go straight into rationalism (or commerce), I'll go back to fill only the left side of patronage (tangential note - you can get the third policy down on the left [happiness and strategics] without getting consulates.)

Consulates helps early when there are 10 or 12 CS's that you have no influence with - getting the base to 20 means that any quest will trigger 20 or 30 turns of friend status bonus, possibly even a single turn of allied status, which may give you the resource for one turn which can have the domino effect of resource questing other CS's. Without it, completing a quest gives 7 or 10 turns of friend bonus before it decays, unless you want to spend money.

The extra gold from trade routes with CS's is a garbage-tier policy bonus, and consulates doesn't help if you already have influence over 20 with most of the city states and are trying to juggle friend/ally status, which is why I'll only fill the left side after completing the second full SP tree.

The "not-so-free" free great people is... difficult to assess. I have had some games where I was allied with all 12 (yeah, I turn it down for more real estate) city states and had this policy in place for 85 turns and got a whopping total of 2, one khan and one great merchant. I've had other games where the policy is enacted with only 20 or 30 turns left in the game and only being allied with half of the lot and got 2 scientists, a writer, a GMoV, and an engineer. The only thing that's absolute is it has never been beneficial at a game-breaking level. Since it does increase the pool counter for great people, especially in the case of increasing scientist/engineer points when it gives a merchant, some people consider it negative at times, but I have a hard time justifying getting upset over a great person gift: too much like looking a gift horse in the mouth. Still, there's that situation where you're timing a great scientist for satellites with an engineer on deck for hubble and a city state throws a monkey wrench in the plan by giving you a merchant, but that's only as much of a negative as the Mayan UA is, and nobody is complaining about that...
 
Sometimes you get a map that's just not suited for Liberty. Playing a standard-size standard-speed Emperor oval map, and I spawned on a little strip of land with lots of grassland and forests (but no sheep nor horses and only one cattle), one hill, no fresh water, and lots of sea tiles but only one fish. It's not as bad as it sounds, I have iron and stone and marble and two plantation lux's. (dyes?) I founded Athens on top of one of the dyes. And I picked up some horses for my companion cavalry from one of my expos.

I've tried playing it a couple of times with Liberty, and I can get 4 cities if I forward settle Assyria and then backfill, but there's really not a good place for a 5th city until I research Optics, and that location is not all that good because it's hard to defend (on the other side of a strait)

Somebody else built Pyramids before I could even start on it; it went *fast*. I did get the Mausoleum and the Great Wall. It wasn't a bad game, but I was falling behind. I started over, mainly because Pyramids was a key part of my strategy.

I tried again last night and opened Honor instead. Settled the same 4 cities. Military Caste grows your city borders faster than the Liberty opener, it just comes later. Researched Metal Casting before Education so I could get workshops up. Played for about a half an hour this morning before work and I captured Assur.

Now I have to decide whether to settle down into a peaceful (mostly) game, or raze KarTuku-something because it's too close to my city, capture Nineveh, then liberate that Spanish city he took so everybody will overlook my warmongering. That will leave Assyria in the game with one city and no military; let someone else eliminate them. :)

My social policies so far have been Honor (right side), Patronage opener, Consulates, Philanthropy, Scholasticism, Honor (left side). I'm allied to about a half a dozen CS's; they are making more science for me than my own cities are, but that will change in a few turns when I finish building my universities (especially at Sparta because it's surrounded by jungle.) Next policy I have to choose between opening Rationalism and Commerce. I think I need the gold more than I need beakers at this point.
 
Sometimes you get a map that's just not suited for Liberty. Playing a standard-size standard-speed Emperor oval map...
Get used to this. On deity, 9 out of 10 maps make liberty ill-suited at best, suicidal at worst. They get a second city planted within 5 turns, which usually doesn't forward settle you too much, but they often have a third city in the first 40 turns that often boxes you in pretty well. Real estate is slim pickings quickly.


Now I have to decide whether to settle down into a peaceful (mostly) game, or raze KarTuku-something because it's too close to my city, capture Nineveh, then liberate that Spanish city he took so everybody will overlook my warmongering. That will leave Assyria in the game with one city and no military; let someone else eliminate them. :)
I'm not sure how this would play out naturally (i.e. without your intervention) on emperor level, but on Deity there's a (subjectively) better way to handle it. If Assyria is taking Spanish cities, he's likely beyond the breaking point where he can and will exterminate them completely. If you declare war (or play possum and let him DoW you), leave him with no army and capture one of his cities, you remove his ability to eradicate Spain, which would have worked to your favor as you could then liberate ALL the Spanish cities, and have the rest of the world rejoice at your presence despite planning on a conquering spree all along. Also means that Spain will vote any way you want her to for the rest of the game, if that factors in at all.

My social policies so far have been Honor (right side), Patronage opener, Consulates, Philanthropy, Scholasticism, Honor (left side). I'm allied to about a half a dozen CS's; they are making more science for me than my own cities are, but that will change in a few turns when I finish building my universities (especially at Sparta because it's surrounded by jungle.) Next policy I have to choose between opening Rationalism and Commerce. I think I need the gold more than I need beakers at this point.
Nice, I'm playing a lot of unconventional SP-pathing myself right now. The universally accepted best option would be rationalism, even if it seems like gold is more important to you at the moment, because it will allow you to more quickly get banks, stock exchanges, more trade routes, etc. But again, I applaud unconventional play and like switching things up. If it seems like your economy is a high priority to address and you want to try some unconventional SP-pathing, you might consider Piety IF 1.) you have a religion or will get one before they're all gone, and 2.) there's still a reformation belief available that will help you, most likely TTGG (although some swear by JE, I don't care for it myself, plus TTGG solves another problem you'll encounter later - discussed below.) You're at the point in the game where the civs that went piety have already selected their reformation belief - go to the diplomacy screen and look under "Global Politics" to see which civs went piety, then check the religion screen to see which reformation beliefs they took. Process of elimination tells you what's left.

Piety is VERY good for the economy, arguably equal (or near) commerce. Looking at commerce - the opener is good with +25% in your capital. Wagon trains might be mediocre if you have lots of roads, meh if you don't. Mercenary army doesn't affect your economy. Entreprenuership is a negative social policy. Mercantilism helps with purchasing, which you won't be doing if your economy needs help. Protectionism is awesome for happiness, but you haven't mentioned struggles with this. And the finisher is good if you have lots of TP's, but not if you don't. Comparatively, Piety gives the same bonus the Commerce opener gives, but in ALL your cities instead of just the capital: you get a 25% bonus in all cities with a temple, and since temples are 1/2 the hammers, you will have them in all your cities. Furthermore, holy sites have +3 gold, and you'll probably want a couple of those. If you're planning aggression, which it sounds like you are, you're likely to capture at least a few more full Prophets for more holy sites, and this will help you with culture as well. Plus there's some added faith. Plus, it solves a big problem you're going to face later in the game - by going Honor and Patronage, the only great people you're qualified to purchase with faith are generals, and they won't be that helpful. If you can still snag TTGG, faith can go a long way between scientists, engineers, writers, and artists.
 
I paid Assyria to declare war on Spain. ;) He had a much bigger army than me at the time, and I wanted to get them away from our border. Also wanted to set him up as the bad guy. (but then I forgot to denounce him after he captured Seville) He's already made peace with Isabella. He offered me a sweet peace deal a couple of turns ago, but I turned it down. In addition to me sieging his capital, my city states are beating up on his expos pretty bad.

I do have a religion, and I have 1½ prophets just sitting around waiting for the war to be over. IIRC, I took God-King, Church Property, Religious Texts, Divine Inspiration, and Feed the World. I have shrines everywhere (first thing I built in my new cities) but not many temples yet. And of course I still need a Grand Temple.

My economy is okay, but I need gold to throw at the CS's. I normally try to avoid getting great merchants because they run up the price for scientists, but in this game I thought I'd get my extra beakers using merchants instead of scientists via Scholasticism and Entrepreneurship.

I'm not sure how this would play out naturally (i.e. without your intervention) on emperor level, but on Deity there's a (subjectively) better way to handle it. If Assyria is taking Spanish cities, he's likely beyond the breaking point where he can and will exterminate them completely. If you declare war (or play possum and let him DoW you), leave him with no army and capture one of his cities, you remove his ability to eradicate Spain, which would have worked to your favor as you could then liberate ALL the Spanish cities, and have the rest of the world rejoice at your presence despite planning on a conquering spree all along. Also means that Spain will vote any way you want her to for the rest of the game, if that factors in at all.

Yeah, I jumped the gun declaring war on Assyria. What I planned to do was to DoW as soon as he attacked Spain; get him in a war on 2 fronts on opposite sides of his kingdom. But it took a couple of turns for me to get into position, plus I didn't expect him to do so well against her conquistadors. I should have let that play out before attacking.
 
I should have let Assyria annihilate Spain; Isabella has a holy mountain for spamming missionaries and is converting the whole world to Catholicism now (a rather useless religion; almost all the tenets go towards supercharging those missionaries) But she and almost everybody else are friends with me. I wish I had more gold for research agreements, but I'm able to accept most of them and I have the Porcelain Tower.

I decided to go Rationalism instead of Commerce because my BPT was ramping up nicely but the beakers from the CS's seemed to be stagnating, and I was losing my tech edge even with the research agreements.

Assyria is no more, and nobody mourns. I captured Assur and razed Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta (I had to look that up), then offered peace in exchange for Seville which I liberated. Nineveh built Machu Picchu shortly after the war (it had been building it before the war but then stopped.) Nineveh also had cotton and my cities and several CS's wanted cotton.

[Fast-forward about 20 turns] I denounced Assyria and everybody else did likewise. Spain asked me to join them in a war and I said "10 turns to prepare". I finished Chemistry and upgraded my trebs to cannons and waited. Nineveh was protected by a mountain and a forest on my side, and a river on Spain's side. I sent a worker to chop the forest tile right next to the city (guarded by 3 pikes that had to rotate in and out) Once that was chopped I had line of sight for my 2 cannons and a crossbow and the city fell quickly. I had to be careful to make sure I got it and not Isabella. Then I sieged Nimrud but I didn't captured it; just used it for target practice to level up my cannons until a frisky CS finally took it.

Portugal has the strongest military now, Rome is second, and I'm number 3; all of us are pretty close in might. Someone, I think Rome, has adopted an ideology (Order.) Pretty soon I have to pick one and I have no idea which to take. I have lots of coal, so Order is tempting. Was going to Oxford my way to Radio, but it's taking forever for my 3rd expo to finish its university. I still might use Oxford for Radio, but I'll have 3 factories before Oxford is finished.

Rome has been at war with Polynesia for most of the game and is slowly wiping them out. I think I should let Caesar finish the job, and then maybe Maria will join me in eliminating him.

The other civ in the game is Egypt. Ramses pretends to be friendly, but then offers me one horse for a luxury (at least horses are still relevant) and won't trade luxes one-for-one when he has a spare copy.

I guess I better pick what victory i'm going for; been having too much fun just being manipulative. Probably Domination, I don't have enough hammers to build spaceship parts. My culture is good at this point, but my tourism is lousy.
 
I personally think finishing Patronage is not worth it at all. The finisher can actually be bad for you, because getting a Great Merchant or a Great Engineer will increase your Great Scientist counter even if they are supposed to be free.

My advice would be to start Liberty, try your hardest to get a natural Golden Age before finishing it, then chaining together those two Golden Ages in order to hardbuild a Wonder or the National College.

I personally prefer getting a Great Scientist for free and then building the National College. It's a tradeoff: Getting a great Engineer to use on the National College will increase your Science by a much bigger amount, which in turn will get you faster Education, Scientific Theory and Plastics. Getting a Great Scientist very early and hardbuilding the National College will give you slightly stronger endgame bulbs. Both are viable, though engineering the National College is probably more solid.

I would just open Patronage and go to Scholasticism, then let it be. From my experience it really is not worth it finishing the tree. You have other solid options in Commerce, Rationalism or Order, which is actually decent if you have 6 or more cities.
 
I did finish Patronage eventually, but it was a very low priority -- not until I was almost done with Rationalism and pretty deep in Autocracy (I saved the R finisher for something good, I don't remember what so I'll say Radar) I got a Khan and a MoV, which are both pretty good, I used the merchant for a trade mission. At first I thought the Khan was just a GG and was disappointed because I already had so many generals not doing anything.

I wiped the map; nothing left but 2 AI cities that I didn't want (one was a snow city, the other was actually pretty good but wanted to move on and finish the game) and all the CS's. I was 12 techs ahead even picking Autocracy, and I only stole one tech early in the game. In the next-to-last war I had missile cruisers, stealth bombers, and modern armor fighting frigates, riflemen, and artillery.
 
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